Bogging/stalling when coming to a stop, irregular power.

[Juice]

I dont know who tuned the car, I bought the car as is with everything thats been done to it last July.

Ok, than you need to find out if the TB is tune required or not before going with a stock TB.

I would think the tune itself is not the issue as the car ran fine for some time. Sorry, I dont recall specifics on the BBK TB.
I would find the install instructions for it and see if it says tune required, and go from there.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Ok, than you need to find out if the TB is tune required or not before going with a stock TB.

I would think the tune itself is not the issue as the car ran fine for some time. Sorry, I dont recall specifics on the BBK TB.
I would find the install instructions for it and see if it says tune required, and go from there.

Going from the stock dual 55mm TB to any dual 62mm TB would require a tune since the airflow will be increased at any given throttle angle.
BBK advise that you check the TPS voltage of your stock TB before you remove it, and adjust their TB to the same TPS voltage during installation. It should be 1.19-1.31v with the blades in the idle position.

 

[Laga]

Unfortunately what did break was one of the bolts that hold the coil packs in.

I did the same thing last summer. I’m always careful when using an impact driver, but my 5yo grandson picked mine up and switched it from loosen to tighten. After loosening the coil boot bolt by hand, I grabbed the impact driver to speed things up because it’s a long bolt. Being that it was switched, it snapped the bolt right off when it tightened it down.
I found a nut that was slightly larger on the inside than the outside of the bolt. Using zip ties to hold the coil in place, I drove to the welder, and he welded the inside of the nut to the top of the bolt. It came right out.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

msd coil packs are junk. Why do people put that inferior garbage on their cars? Not you OP but yea getting some stock coil packs. BBK also had a lot of issues with the electronics on their tb's.

 

[Laga]

Im not sure about the throttle body thing, Ill have to look into it. I have been driving my moms car but I did take my car to a family friends shop who couldnt help me because all of the work done to my car, he told me to take it to a tuner because they would know more about what theyre looking at. I took it to a guy my boss has been to for multiple cars (he specializes in Mustangs) who told me everything Im describing sounds like a bad tune. So in the 2-2.5 hours of driving to these places, I still bogged, but not nearly as bad (only down to maybe 600rpm, 500 at worst) and never stalled. My uncles said repeatedly that he thinks I need to get it retuned but also mentioned changing my spark plugs, which Im terrified to do because of the whole spark plug ordeal. I have disconnected the battery but not since doing the TPS. Another thing worth mentioning is that I looked at the data stream on my scanner, and with the car off, foot off the pedal, the throttle percentage sat at 17%. Pedal fully depressed, it went to 75%. If I let off the pedal, it dropped down to ~11%, then jumped back up to rest at 17%. Any thoughts on that?

Also could you point out on a picture where youre telling me to grease? Im not a mechanic and I only know how to do basic stuff so Im not sure what youre telling me to do.

On the side of the TB, there is a motor that drives gears on the inside. While this photo is an Edelbrock, the BBK will look similar. These are the gears that need the grease.

 

[partypants]

msd coil packs are junk. Why do people put that inferior garbage on their cars? Not you OP but yea getting some stock coil packs. BBK also had a lot of issues with the electronics on their tb's.

My uncle, while not entirely up to date with modern cars, said that MSD was a great brand. Is this something recent? He seemed to think that they made good stuff for muscle cars but again his knowledge for these kinds of things relative to cars is more for vehicles from the 60s and 70s(motorcycles on the other hand....).

 

[partypants]

I did the same thing last summer. I’m always careful when using an impact driver, but my 5yo grandson picked mine up and switched it from loosen to tighten. After loosening the coil boot bolt by hand, I grabbed the impact driver to speed things up because it’s a long bolt. Being that it was switched, it snapped the bolt right off when it tightened it down.
I found a nut that was slightly larger on the inside than the outside of the bolt. Using zip ties to hold the coil in place, I drove to the welder, and he welded the inside of the nut to the top of the bolt. It came right out.

I dont even get how mine broke, it wasnt even fully tightened yet, there was barely any resistance and it just popped.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

My uncle, while not entirely up to date with modern cars, said that MSD was a great brand. .

Great brand for distributors and control boxes. Coils have always sucked. OEM has always been better. Cars making 1000 plus hp run oem coils, why do you think that is? MSD & Granatelli make junk coils for our cars.

 

[GlassTop09]

Going from the stock dual 55mm TB to any dual 62mm TB would require a tune since the airflow will be increased at any given throttle angle.
BBK advise that you check the TPS voltage of your stock TB before you remove it, and adjust their TB to the same TPS voltage during installation. It should be 1.19-1.31v with the blades in the idle position.

Not necessarily Dino......I've personally done this myself several times on my car in both directions (stock to BBK\BBK back to stock\stock to FP 62mm TB) w\o making any tune changes w\o issue. It will depend on how the individual who initially set up the BBK 62mm TB set the TPS stop position AND following the PCM KAM reset\idle relearn procedure after any TB swapouts.

The reason why you take the TPS output voltage reading from the stock TB w\ KOEO 1st is for reference TPS position relative to match the tuning so when the BBK 62mm TB is properly set back to this exact TPS output voltage the PCM has nothing out of spec so it will control the 62mm TB just as if the stock 55mm TB is still installed since they're reporting the same TPS voltage position output signal at KOEO back to the PCM. The rest is the PCM readjusting TB blade angle to maintain the same desired idle RPM's\load% as it would do w\ the stock 55mm TB & I have never witnessed mine go out of range. The FP 62mm TB's TPS stop is preset to the std TPS 1.19v output which is in the PCM's ability to self-calibrate\readjust to IF a full KAM reset\idle relearn is done after installing it (my tune was set to use TPS 1.16v output as measured on my Ford preset stock OEM 55mm TB).

Been here, done that. I've made mention of all this in my Lunati VooDoo cam thread. I never had any TB over rotation.......if you fully clear the KAM by batt disconnect & allow the PCM to go thru full relearn idle 1st before doing anything else. The main reason I replaced my BBK 62mm TB is finding vacuum leaks thru both outer TB butterfly shaft seals from smoke leak testing, not due to any operation issues. The plastic gear binding issue in these BBK TB's is real as I've witnessed this myself & addressed it using lube (which BBK instructions say not to do). But we don't know if the OP's BBK 62mm TB actually has this plastic gear bind issue. If the TB butterflies open\close properly & fully when no power is hooked up to the actuator, then there is no drag\sticking issue w\ it.
You're reusing the OEM Ford TB electronics from the stock OEM 55mm TB w\ the BBK 62mm TB so if the electronics are bad, they were either bad prior swapout, got damaged during swapout or went bad after swapout.....BBK #1763 62mm TBs don't come w\ any electronics preinstalled. OP has already replaced the TPS on his BBK 62mm TB.......hopefully w\ the 3rd gen OEM MC TPS sensor (the big square rectangular one used on later MY Ford TB's) as the 1st 2 gen TPS's were known to have issues. From the rest of his posting the actuator looks to be operating Ok.

But all this isn't gonna help the OP as he inherited all this after the fact (got no reference data to go off of) so the only thing I can think of to do w\o going thru the tune is to check the TPS at KOEO to see where the output voltage is & if needed, to reset the TPS stop on BBK TB to set TPS voltage output to the 1.19v std (where Ford sets the TPS stop to on all FP 62mm TB's......to facilitate a plug & play swap) then clear KAM & perform an idle relearn to see if it straightens back up. To do this the TB actuator will have to be removed from the BBK TB to access the TPS stop Allen lock screw at which time the plastic gearing will be exposed so the white lithium grease can be applied as well.

But again, the OP typed that all this was operating fine until recently so all this may be a moot issue. If the P2135 DTC is gone & hasn't reappeared, then this A\B correlation issue is also gone thus why I typed for OP to clear KAM & do an idle relearn thru PCM since the TB TPS changeout to see if all this goes away. Since OP has posted that the P2196 DTC has also cleared & gone away then this says that the B1S1 O2 sensor issue is gone & was caused from some other issue......why I suggested to look at the EVAP CPV. This valve is easy to test......just unclip it from it's mount bracket & disconnect the big line to the EVAP canister, leave it connected to IM then start car at a cold start (PCM disables EVAP CPV until ECT is >170*F so no need to unplug it & set off an EVAP CPV DTC....CPV is normally closed) & check at the big line connector on CPV for vacuum......if vacuum is present then CPV is bad & needs replaced.....which can create environment to cause the P2196 DTC due to excess fuel vapor draw\excess unmetered air draw into IM throwing off STFT\LTFT thus can interfere w\ the O2 sensor operation. OP has a FRPP IM installed so I would also suggest to check to see if PCM is excessively drawing unmetered air\fuel fumes into IM thru looking at the EVAP_% & EVAP_inH2O PIDs along w\ the STFT\LTFT PIDs thru live data in his scan tool. OP, what did the plugs look like? Especially the B1 plugs?

Again, ask me how I know...............

OP, does your scan tool report IM Readiness & all checks come back as ready or OK w\ no FF data stored?

From my experience most tuners won't touch the TB tuning in the tune (gain, integral & proportional control settings) if the TB is functioning. My tuner never touched mine thruout as the TB was functioning properly from the beginning (I had already swapped out TB's prior on the same stock tune\later Bama tune & on all following On3 dyno tunes prior tuning sessions). Now if a known good spare OEM 55mm TB full assembly was available, I'd swap it in as well to verify as all odds says the TB tuning in tune is still stock........

But now we're getting into the potential parts cannon scenario which can be costly which I wasn't trying to do thus why I typed for the OP to start 1st w\ the things that don't require diagnostic equipment or buying parts to swap in as "TS'ing diagnostic equipment", just some time & some effort moving existing parts around. He does have a scan tool that can display live data......but I'd like to know what brand\type scan tool to know what the scanner's capabilities are before I start giving any more involved checking procedures as the OP also typed that his mechanical skills are modest at best........we're messing w\ HIS money, not ours. A rundown of all the live data PID displayed while engine is running would be very helpful for us to look at to see what's actually going on (we're trying to TS thru a computer screen relying on the OP's post info......).

I find it very odd that the OP has a local shop that refused to look at\TS his car because it has aftermarket components installed........none of this changes the base operating principals\procedures from OEM........but I can also understand why a shop would refuse as well.

1 thing that was mentioned is to get rid of the MSD coils.......this I definitely agree with doing now & replace them w\ the appropriate OEM Ford MC coils (if late 08 should be the brown boot MC DG521 COP's).

OP, what exact DTC came up after starting car w\ the loose coil?

Sorry for the long post..........

 

[partypants]

Not necessarily Dino......I've personally done this myself several times on my car in both directions (stock to BBK\BBK back to stock\stock to FP 62mm TB) w\o making any tune changes w\o issue. It will depend on how the individual who initially set up the BBK 62mm TB set the TPS stop position AND following the PCM KAM reset\idle relearn procedure after any TB swapouts.

The reason why you take the TPS output voltage reading from the stock TB w\ KOEO 1st is for reference TPS position relative to match the tuning so when the BBK 62mm TB is properly set back to this exact TPS output voltage the PCM has nothing out of spec so it will control the 62mm TB just as if the stock 55mm TB is still installed since they're reporting the same TPS voltage position output signal at KOEO back to the PCM. The rest is the PCM readjusting TB blade angle to maintain the same desired idle RPM's\load% as it would do w\ the stock 55mm TB & I have never witnessed mine go out of range. The FP 62mm TB's TPS stop is preset to the std TPS 1.19v output which is in the PCM's ability to self-calibrate\readjust to IF a full KAM reset\idle relearn is done after installing it (my tune was set to use TPS 1.16v output as measured on my Ford preset stock OEM 55mm TB).

Been here, done that. I've made mention of all this in my Lunati VooDoo cam thread. I never had any TB over rotation.......if you fully clear the KAM by batt disconnect & allow the PCM to go thru full relearn idle 1st before doing anything else. The main reason I replaced my BBK 62mm TB is finding vacuum leaks thru both outer TB butterfly shaft seals from smoke leak testing, not due to any operation issues. The plastic gear binding issue in these BBK TB's is real as I've witnessed this myself & addressed it using lube (which BBK instructions say not to do). But we don't know if the OP's BBK 62mm TB actually has this plastic gear bind issue. If the TB butterflies open\close properly & fully when no power is hooked up to the actuator, then there is no drag\sticking issue w\ it.
You're reusing the OEM Ford TB electronics from the stock OEM 55mm TB w\ the BBK 62mm TB so if the electronics are bad, they were either bad prior swapout, got damaged during swapout or went bad after swapout.....BBK #1763 62mm TBs don't come w\ any electronics preinstalled. OP has already replaced the TPS on his BBK 62mm TB.......hopefully w\ the 3rd gen OEM MC TPS sensor (the big square rectangular one used on later MY Ford TB's) as the 1st 2 gen TPS's were known to have issues. From the rest of his posting the actuator looks to be operating Ok.

But all this isn't gonna help the OP as he inherited all this after the fact (got no reference data to go off of) so the only thing I can think of to do w\o going thru the tune is to check the TPS at KOEO to see where the output voltage is & if needed, to reset the TPS stop on BBK TB to set TPS voltage output to the 1.19v std (where Ford sets the TPS stop to on all FP 62mm TB's......to facilitate a plug & play swap) then clear KAM & perform an idle relearn to see if it straightens back up. To do this the TB actuator will have to be removed from the BBK TB to access the TPS stop Allen lock screw at which time the plastic gearing will be exposed so the white lithium grease can be applied as well.

But again, the OP typed that all this was operating fine until recently so all this may be a moot issue. If the P2135 DTC is gone & hasn't reappeared, then this A\B correlation issue is also gone thus why I typed for OP to clear KAM & do an idle relearn thru PCM since the TB TPS changeout to see if all this goes away. Since OP has posted that the P2196 DTC has also cleared & gone away then this says that the B1S1 O2 sensor issue is gone & was caused from some other issue......why I suggested to look at the EVAP CPV. This valve is easy to test......just unclip it from it's mount bracket & disconnect the big line to the EVAP canister, leave it connected to IM then start car at a cold start (PCM disables EVAP CPV until ECT is >170*F so no need to unplug it & set off an EVAP CPV DTC....CPV is normally closed) & check at the big line connector on CPV for vacuum......if vacuum is present then CPV is bad & needs replaced.....which can create environment to cause the P2196 DTC due to excess fuel vapor draw\excess unmetered air draw into IM throwing off STFT\LTFT thus can interfere w\ the O2 sensor operation. OP has a FRPP IM installed so I would also suggest to check to see if PCM is excessively drawing unmetered air\fuel fumes into IM thru looking at the EVAP_% & EVAP_inH2O PIDs along w\ the STFT\LTFT PIDs thru live data in his scan tool. OP, what did the plugs look like? Especially the B1 plugs?

Again, ask me how I know...............

OP, does your scan tool report IM Readiness & all checks come back as ready or OK w\ no FF data stored?

From my experience most tuners won't touch the TB tuning in the tune (gain, integral & proportional control settings) if the TB is functioning. My tuner never touched mine thruout as the TB was functioning properly from the beginning (I had already swapped out TB's prior on the same stock tune\later Bama tune & on all following On3 dyno tunes prior tuning sessions). Now if a known good spare OEM 55mm TB full assembly was available, I'd swap it in as well to verify as all odds says the TB tuning in tune is still stock........

But now we're getting into the potential parts cannon scenario which can be costly which I wasn't trying to do thus why I typed for the OP to start 1st w\ the things that don't require diagnostic equipment or buying parts to swap in as "TS'ing diagnostic equipment", just some time & some effort moving existing parts around. He does have a scan tool that can display live data......but I'd like to know what brand\type scan tool to know what the scanner's capabilities are before I start giving any more involved checking procedures as the OP also typed that his mechanical skills are modest at best........we're messing w\ HIS money, not ours. A rundown of all the live data PID displayed while engine is running would be very helpful for us to look at to see what's actually going on (we're trying to TS thru a computer screen relying on the OP's post info......).

I find it very odd that the OP has a local shop that refused to look at\TS his car because it has aftermarket components installed........none of this changes the base operating principals\procedures from OEM........but I can also understand why a shop would refuse as well.

1 thing that was mentioned is to get rid of the MSD coils.......this I definitely agree with doing now & replace them w\ the appropriate OEM Ford MC coils (if late 08 should be the brown boot MC DG521 COP's).

OP, what exact DTC came up after starting car w\ the loose coil?

Sorry for the long post..........

I can tell you the name of the scanner when i get home from work later, but its a cheap one, inly cost me 40 bucks or so.
Its not that a local shop refused to look at it, it was a family friend doing me a favor checking it out for me for free and didnt want to mess with it considering all the work done to it.
I dont remember the code that popped up ill have to check it when i get home.
Oh also mine is an October 07 build date, so a couple months before the brown coil boot, still black.
Oh yeah and i think the brand for the tps sensor was Standard, it was the only one Oreillys had in stock. And I CAN open the throttle plates manually with the plug that goes into the motor on the TB disconnected if that applies.

 

[partypants]

This is the broken bolt btw

 

[Laga]

That bolt is pretty accessible. Should not be a problem. Since you said it broke off easily, spray some penetrating fluid on it a couple of times before taking it to welder.

 

[partypants]

Oh and @GlassTop09 only one plug was really even fouled. In my infinite wisdom i forgot to keep track of which plugs were in which cylinder though. But i believe the fouled plug was on the driver side

 

[GlassTop09]

I can tell you the name of the scanner when i get home from work later, but its a cheap one, inly cost me 40 bucks or so.
Its not that a local shop refused to look at it, it was a family friend doing me a favor checking it out for me for free and didnt want to mess with it considering all the work done to it.
I dont remember the code that popped up ill have to check it when i get home.
Oh also mine is an October 07 build date, so a couple months before the brown coil boot, still black.
Oh yeah and i think the brand for the tps sensor was Standard, it was the only one Oreillys had in stock. And I CAN open the throttle plates manually with the plug that goes into the motor on the TB disconnected if that applies.

Ah Ok on the friend...........can understand why as some don't want to go thru the headache of diagnosing behind someone else's work when aftermarket components installed & PCM tuning done prior cause it CAN get ugly. Why it helps us to know as much good info up front to then be able to help you w\o chasing a lot of rabbits......... Such as knowing the specific DTC code that set after you started car w\ the unsecured coil......code could be unrelated to the coil AFAIK w\o me seeing the DTC, but you saw it, so you'd know. Just need to let us know..........

Just need to know the scan tool's capabilities so I know how far to go helping you to TS your car w\ it.

The Standard brand of components that O'Reilly's carries are overall pretty good from my experience & best of all will usually come w\ a limited lifetime warranty so IMHO that's OK.......I just try to stick w\ OEM Ford MC stuff whenever possible, but I do have a Standard EVAP CPV from O'Reilly's installed on my car (replaced a leaking OEM CPV) which has worked flawlessly for >2 yrs to date.

As long as the TB butterfly plates\shaft can rotate from fully closed to fully open back to fully closed w\o power applied to the actuator AND no assist needed from you to fully close the butterfly plates against the TPS stop from full open, the TB plastic gearing is not binding or sticking.....if they are sticking it will be close to full close position where the return spring's wound tension will be at its weakest tension & can't set the butterflies against the TPS stop on its own. Also check the TB housing around the butterflies when closed for any signs of surface damage or deformity......if some deformity\damage is observed then a replacement TB will be needed (have no idea how long the BBK TB has been installed on your ride & how it was maintained).

 

[partypants]

Ah Ok on the friend...........can understand why as some don't want to go thru the headache of diagnosing behind someone else's work when aftermarket components installed & PCM tuning done prior cause it CAN get ugly. Why it helps us to know as much good info up front to then be able to help you w\o chasing a lot of rabbits......... Such as knowing the specific DTC code that set after you started car w\ the unsecured coil......code could be unrelated to the coil AFAIK w\o me seeing the DTC, but you saw it, so you'd know. Just need to let us know..........

Just need to know the scan tool's capabilities so I know how far to go helping you to TS your car w\ it.

The Standard brand of components that O'Reilly's carries are overall pretty good from my experience & best of all will usually come w\ a limited lifetime warranty so IMHO that's OK.......I just try to stick w\ OEM Ford MC stuff whenever possible, but I do have a Standard EVAP CPV from O'Reilly's installed on my car (replaced a leaking OEM CPV) which has worked flawlessly for >2 yrs to date.

As long as the TB butterfly plates\shaft can rotate from fully closed to fully open back to fully closed w\o power applied to the actuator AND no assist needed from you to fully close the butterfly plates against the TPS stop from full open, the TB plastic gearing is not binding or sticking.....if they are sticking it will be close to full close position where the return spring's wound tension will be at its weakest tension & can't set the butterflies against the TPS stop on its own. Also check the TB housing around the butterflies when closed for any signs of surface damage or deformity......if some deformity\damage is observed then a replacement TB will be needed (have no idea how long the BBK TB has been installed on your ride & how it was maintained).

Well im heading home now so ill be able to tell you what scanner i have and tbe code

 

[GlassTop09]

Oh and @GlassTop09 only one plug was really even fouled. In my infinite wisdom i forgot to keep track of which plugs were in which cylinder though. But i believe the fouled plug was on the driver side
View attachment 81656

Ok, these show that the engine's overall fueling, AFR is pretty good across both engine banks so the 1 plug that shows some fouling is indicating a specific issue w\ 1 specific cyl (like a potential bad coil not getting plug tip hot enough to self-clean or intake valve stem seal(s) leaking oil) so you'll have to chase that down. You may have just found your issue w\ sluggish low speed operation.

At 1st opportunity I'd lose the MSD coils & go back to OEM Ford MC DG511 coils as already suggested by others.

PS--If your scan tool can access Mode 6 data you could have pulled up the Misfire Monitor Self-Check data on all cylinders to check for misfires (which that fouled plug would've shown up as high misfire counts as it was clearly misfiring or firing poorly). This was 1 of the capabilities I would've asked you to see if it had.

FYI........

PS--1 more thing to know. Whenever you do disconnect the batt & reset the PCM's KAM you will also need to perform the MM 60-40 DFCO training to reinstate the misfire monitor in these SO PCM's otherwise the MM will show no misfire counts or cat CMBT in Mode 6 data until this training is completed. The SO PCM will eventually train itself over time, but you can speed this up by intentionally accelerating car past 60 MPH then take foot off APP to put PCM in DFCO then allow the engine to coast in gear (D for autos or 5th gear for manuals) until the MPH drops below 40 MPH then repeat this process 2 more times in succession w\o touching the brake and\or clutch pedal so the PCM will accept it (PCM is learning the CKP sensor trigger wheel patterns from when the engine is applying TQ load to when the engine is pumping air only or no load). So it is best to do this on a remote long stretch of road w\ little to no traffic to facilitate staying off the brake pedal.

 

[partypants]

Ok so the scanner is an Ancel ad410 and the code was p0352

 

[partypants]

Ok, these show that the engine's overall fueling, AFR is pretty good across both engine banks so the 1 plug that shows some fouling is indicating a specific issue w\ 1 specific cyl (like a potential bad coil not getting plug tip hot enough to self-clean or intake valve stem seal(s) leaking oil) so you'll have to chase that down. You may have just found your issue w\ sluggish low speed operation.

At 1st opportunity I'd lose the MSD coils & go back to OEM Ford MC DG511 coils as already suggested by others.

PS--If your scan tool can access Mode 6 data you could have pulled up the Misfire Monitor Self-Check data on all cylinders to check for misfires (which that fouled plug would've shown up as high misfire counts as it was clearly misfiring or firing poorly). This was 1 of the capabilities I would've asked you to see if it had.

FYI........

I looked at the misfire monitor and nothing showed up for any cylinder.

 

[GlassTop09]

Ok so the scanner is an Ancel ad410 and the code was p0352

Ok the DTC has your answer.........that is cyl #2 showing a bad ignition coil winding so I'd wager your fouled plug came from #2 cyl........which is on B1 which is the passenger side of car (2nd cyl from the front of engine).......the same side you had the P2196 DTC showing B1S1 stuck rich.........which may have influenced the P2135 DTC w\ the TB due to engine stumbling from misfiring cyl under load. I'd say your BBK 62mm TB is fine............... When you replaced the bad plug w\ a good plug this raised the voltage needed to fire it & the #2 coil failed to generate it (no secondary voltage spike detected from coil) thus the DTC.

I'd get rid of those MSD coils...............................

 

[partypants]

Ok the DTC has your answer.........that is cyl #2 showing a bad ignition coil winding so I'd wager your fouled plug came from #2 cyl........which is on B1 which is the passenger side of car.......the same side you had the P2196 DTC showing B1S1 stuck rich.........which may have influenced the P2135 DTC w\ the TB due to engine stumbling from misfiring cyl. I'd say your TB is fine...............

I'd get rid of those MSD coils...............................

Is it possible to just do the one? Im pretty broke atm.