"Compound Boosting" IC Water Pumps Question(s)

[Chiron]

The reason I stated across the greatest restriction is the fact that that will be the largest pressure differential.
To get the most flow through that restriction you create the greatest pressure differential across it.
Outlet of one pump producing the maximum positive pressure and the inlet of the other creating the maximum negative pressure.

I'm thinking out loud here, so bear with me. If you have a pre-pump flow of some number Q, the flow coming out of the first pump would be Q plus a constant (dependent on pump selection, speed, etc - let's say the pump can double the flow Q). For the sake of simplicity, call it 2Q. Now, if you run it directly into another identical pump, you'd increase the flow linearly by the same amount as the first pump (3Q in this case). If you ran it from the first pump through an intercooler, the flow entering the second pump would be 2Q-L (L=losses in the intercooler). Thus, flow out of the second pump would be 3Q-L.

Any input from the rest of the class?

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'm thinking out loud here, so bear with me. If you have a pre-pump flow of some number Q, the flow coming out of the first pump would be Q plus a constant (dependent on pump selection, speed, etc - let's say the pump can double the flow Q). For the sake of simplicity, call it 2Q. Now, if you run it directly into another identical pump, you'd increase the flow linearly by the same amount as the first pump (3Q in this case). If you ran it from the first pump through an intercooler, the flow entering the second pump would be 2Q-L (L=losses in the intercooler). Thus, flow out of the second pump would be 3Q-L.

Any input from the rest of the class?

Your thinking is backed up by my testing.

 

[Marble]

I'm not trying to slam you. This is just a pet peeve of mine. "I have had no issues" is frankly a crap statement when reviewing a product. Is the bar really as low that if it hasn't broken it's good? Of course not. Not breaking/konking out is the least you can expect from a product and a lot difference than "performs very well".

No, I have not had my coffee yet.

When I say issues, I'm not referring to just operating at all.

It meant the pumps haven't over run themselves, flow seemed to have increased even though I have no way to measure it and I accomplished my goal of setting a storage tank in the rear and the flow was adequate enough.

I was able to run a half of tank of water and put 5-15 pounds of ice in at a time. My ET dropped .4 and my mph increased by

I thought you were looking for people's experience and the overall performance. I should have been more clear when I made my crap statement.

Good luck!

 

[hamish]

Pfft, well there goes my science.

 

[GTAmuscle]

I think the one pre-intercooler and one post-intercooler would work better. Them being ass-to-mouth could possibly cause turbulence if they are pumping hard enough to cause any.

Sorry, my experience with pumping systems are in the thousands of psi not vehicle pumping systems.

 

[Department Of Boost]

When I say issues, I'm not referring to just operating at all.

It meant the pumps haven't over run themselves, flow seemed to have increased even though I have no way to measure it and I accomplished my goal of setting a storage tank in the rear and the flow was adequate enough.

I was able to run a half of tank of water and put 5-15 pounds of ice in at a time. My ET dropped .4 and my mph increased by

I thought you were looking for people's experience and the overall performance. I should have been more clear when I made my crap statement.

Good luck!

My mistake, I was being grumpy.

-What were your IAT's before?

-What are your IAT's now?

-Did you have the tank hooked up with just one pump running at some point?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Here are my results so far. The 13' GT500 pump didn't run so it will be a few days before I have that working.

3/4" system with a 3/4" IC. I think the GT450 IC is the only one that is a real 3/4":

-Lingenfelter 13gpm

-Turbo with 1.25" inlet 8.5gpm

-Bosch/Bosch ass to mouth 8.5gpm

-Bosch/Bosch before IC/Before HE 8gpm

-Turbo with 3/4" inlet 7.5gpm

-55 Meziere 7.5gpm

-20 Meziere 7.25gpm

-Bosch (single) 6.5gpm

3/4" System with a GT500 IC. Most blowers are closer to this system than a true 3/4" IC:

-Lingenfelter 9.3gpm

-Bosch/Bosch ass to mouth 8gpm

-Bosch/Bosch before IC/Before HE 7.5gpm

-Turbo with 1.25" inlet 6gpm

-Turbo with 3/4" inlet 6gpm

-55 Meziere 5.25gpm

-Bosch (single) 5.1gpm

-20 Meziere 4.25gpm

This is what you get when you run a 1.25" system but still restrict it down for a "tight" IC. Pretty good results. This is something you will be able to do soon. We have a full 1.25" system coming out for the S197's.

-Lingenfelter with a 1.25" system using a 3/4" IC 21.5gpm

-Lingenfelter with a 1.25" system using a GT/Most blower kit IC 12.75gpm

I'm going to test the Turbo pump on the 1.25" system running the restricted IC's and the 13' GT500 pump later this week.

 

[Pentalab]

Here are my results so far. The 13' GT500 pump didn't run so it will be a few days before I have that working.



3/4" System with a GT500 IC. Most blowers are closer to this system than a true 3/4" IC:

-Lingenfelter 9.3gpm

-Bosch/Bosch ass to mouth 8gpm

-Bosch/Bosch before IC/Before HE 7.5gpm

-Turbo with 1.25" inlet 6gpm

-Turbo with 3/4" inlet 6gpm

-55 Meziere 5.25gpm

-Bosch (single) 5.1gpm

-20 Meziere 4.25gpm

So the 2 Bosch pumps, nose to tail does what I suspected they would do. 5.1 gpm vs 8 gpm is nothing to sneeze at. That's a 57% increase in flow rate. VMP tells me the Bosch sucks 4A of current. 8A for a pair of them is no where near the huge (I think 24A ) load the Lingenfelter sucks. Adding a 2nd Bosch to an existing oem Bosch is another $100-$150...which is not bad for a 57% increase in flow.

It will be very interesting to see where the 13/14 GT-500 pump gets slotted in the above data.

IF you are still in test mode these days, here's something I'd love to see tested, and that's your 2 Bosch pumps in series, ( nose to tail), but with the 14 vdc shut OFF to one of the pumps. I'd like to know if the remaining pump still flows close to 5 gpm...or a bunch less. The idea here is...a redundant pump system. If one fails, you still have the 2nd one. Or manually shut one off when just cruising, or winter time, etc.

Did you measure the current draw in any of your various configs ?

 

[Department Of Boost]

The only real issue with the dual Bosch pumps is packaging.

I don't do any draw testing.

 

[Racer47]

What are you using for a flow meter. I'm going to redo my system over the winter and would like to do some measurements.

Thanks for listing the results of your tests.

Here is the link for the engineering toolbox pics. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-parallel-serial-d_636.html

pt 1 is one pump, pt 2 is two pumps (theoretical), pt 3 is two pumps (typical results)

 

[hamish]

Did you bucket test or use a flow meter for this testing?
Where did you install the flow meter if you used it?

 

[Pentalab]

What are you using for a flow meter. I'm going to redo my system over the winter and would like to do some measurements.

Thanks for listing the results of your tests.

Here is the link for the engineering toolbox pics. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-parallel-serial-d_636.html

pt 1 is one pump, pt 2 is two pumps (theoretical), pt 3 is two pumps (typical results)

Excellent link....and the graphs are the same as in posting #4.

They also say..if one pump craps out, you move from point 3 back to point 1.

"In practice, if one of the pumps in parallel or series stops, the operation point moves along the system resistance curve from point 3 to point 1 - the head and flow rate are decreased."

I suspected as much. So 2 identical pumps could be plumbed in series, and either / both pumps be used. You not only end up with a redundant pump, if one craps out, you also have the option of using one or both pumps as needed.

 

[Department Of Boost]

What are you using for a flow meter. I'm going to redo my system over the winter and would like to do some measurements.

Did you bucket test or use a flow meter for this testing?
Where did you install the flow meter if you used it?

I built an entire test rig. It is the only way to set up multiple configurations, multiple line sizes, multiple IC's (I have one IC that we custom made that can be run from 5/8"-1.25" and dual or single pass), single or multiple HE's, etc.

It's quite a rig.

 

[BMR Tech]

So if I am understanding this properly.....running (2) pumps in series, ass to mouth, works pretty well?

I would love to see (2) 13+ GT500 pumps tested like this.

 

[Department Of Boost]

So if I am understanding this properly.....running (2) pumps in series, ass to mouth, works pretty well?

It works better. But I wouldn't say "well". At this point I like to see 20gpm. The dual Bosch is 8ish.

 

[BMR Tech]

Well test the twin GT500 pump set-up, and see where it's at.

I doubt it would be 20, but it should be a hell of alot more flow than the Bosch pieces.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Well test the twin GT500 pump set-up, and see where it's at.

I doubt it would be 20, but it should be a hell of alot more flow than the Bosch pieces.

I already bought one $300 13' GT500 pump to test for "the greater good". The data really doesn't do me any good. I figured because I was doing another round of testing I may as well do it though because it would be nice to know.

I will not be buying a second one!!!!

And running two 13' GT500 pumps will cost more than one Lingenfgelter. There is no way they will outflow that monster.

 

[BMR Tech]

Good point.

 

[Pentalab]

I already bought one $300 13' GT500 pump to test for "the greater good". The data really doesn't do me any good. I figured because I was doing another round of testing I may as well do it though because it would be nice to know.

I will not be buying a second one!!!!

And running two 13' GT500 pumps will cost more than one Lingenfgelter. There is no way they will outflow that monster.

Until you test the 13/14 GT-500 pump, you won't know what it flows. For folks who already have one existing 13/14 GT-500 pump, adding a 2nd one is only a $300.00 expenditure. Those who have replaced their single Bosch pump with a single 13/14 GT-500 pump all say the de-gas now looks like a jaccuzi. Not very scientific, but very promising.

The Lingenfelter pump is $550.00 and can draw as much as 25A. I'd like to know what a single 13/14 GT-500 draws for current. I have searched, but can't find info on max current draw. ( the Bosch sucks only 4A).

Once you have the data for a single 13/14 GT-500 pump, you can probably assume that 2 of em in series will flow aprx 57% more. And double the total current draw.

If you have the time, plumb the 2 bosch pumps in series, nose to tail, then kill the power to one of them.....then measure the flow rate. If it's the same as a single pump, or slightly less, it would at least prove that a redundant system can be built.

I suspect that 2 13/14 GT-500 pumps in series would be a killer setup, or at least another option....esp if one already has one 13/14 pump.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Until you test the 13/14 GT-500 pump, you won't know what it flows.

For folks who already have one existing 13/14 GT-500 pump, adding a 2nd one is only a $300.00 expenditure.

Please remember I'm doing the 13' GT500 pump testing for the greater good. The data is useless to me aside from in the future I will be able to "Myth-bust" peoples pie in the sky claims. I WILL NOT be buying a second 13' GT500 pump so I can test them A2M. I'm already going to lose money on this one when I sell it.

Once you have the data for a single 13/14 GT-500 pump, you can probably assume that 2 of em in series will flow aprx 57% more. And double the total current draw.

No, you can't. One thing I have learned from pump testing is that until you test it you simply don't know. On paper speculation rarely works out in real life.

If you have the time, plumb the 2 bosch pumps in series, nose to tail, then kill the power to one of them.....then measure the flow rate. If it's the same as a single pump, or slightly less, it would at least prove that a redundant system can be built.

Too late for that.

I suspect that 2 13/14 GT-500 pumps in series would be a killer setup, or at least another option....esp if one already has one 13/14 pump.

We will probably never know.