Eibach Multi Pro R2

[modernbeat]

Do you do all of your own re-valving/rebuilds in house?

Have you ever disassembled the R2’s?

Today, no. In the past, yes.

I did not disassemble them. But I have examined the interior of the R2.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I think that the $1000 packages from Sam are more than sufficient.

I agree, for most people it would be. Car better than the driver and all that.

I think that the $1000 packages from Sam are......better solution than a low end coilover. $.02

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I understand you probably don’t have a complete understanding of the differences between a single and twin tube damper and how those translate into “performance”.

Your statement comparing the two types of dampers is wrong in so many ways I couldn’t begin to list them all. You are talking about two completely different solutions (designs/technology) when comparing the two. Comparing the two is like comparing a 302 Windsor to a 302 Coyote motor. You can throw the entire “catalog” at the Windsor and it still won’t be a run of the mill Coyote motor. The Coyote has too many core design and technology advantages for the Windsor to overcome.

I’ll take a average single tube over a top shelf twin tube damper every time.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I agree, for most people it would be. Car better than the driver and all that.


Please don’t take this the wrong way. I understand you probably don’t have a complete understanding of the differences between a single and twin tube damper and how those translate into “performance”.

Your statement comparing the two types of dampers is wrong in so many ways I couldn’t begin to list them all. You are talking about two completely different solutions (designs/technology) when comparing the two. Comparing the two is like comparing a 302 Windsor to a 302 Coyote motor. You can throw the entire “catalog” at the Windsor and it still won’t be a run of the mill Coyote motor. The Coyote has too many core design and technology advantages for the Windsor to overcome.

I’ll take a average single tube over a top shelf twin tube damper every time.

I completely understand the difference in a monotube and a twin tube. I have the monotubes for a reason. I still stand buy my statement that I'd rather have a Koni Yellow on decent springs than a chinese monotube. Or to use your analogy, I'd rather have a well built Windsor than a Chinese knockoff of a Coyote.

 

[Department Of Boost]

How about some specifics?

.... the R2, which is not a good shock,

You keep saying it isn’t a good damper. Anyone can make the same claim about anything. Why are they not good dampers? Specifics please.

coupled with cheap components,

I keep hearing cheap, cheap, cheap from you but what does that translate into? Are these cheap components leading to failures? Are these cheap components hurting performance? Or does cheap just mean less expensive. Please explain.

sells for $2150.... Better quality shocks with better quality components sell for slightly more than that.

How much is “slightly”

How much for a set of single adjustable AST’s with springs?

How much for double adjustable AST’s with springs?

How much for double adjustable AST’s with remote reservoirs and springs?

Why spend that money on the R2 with it's Chinese and South American made components

Why are components from China or South America automatically bad? Made in the USA doesn’t automatically translate into better quality. Every country has its share of “junk”. That includes the USA. 20 years ago people used to say “Japanese junk” all the time. Now they are known for having some of the best stuff on earth.

Tremec T-56 Magnum XL transmissions which are the best trans you can put in a S197 are made in Mexico. Are they Mexican junk?

Does the Philippines pop into your head when you think about quality? Ford Philippines has the highest quality paint of any Ford made anywhere else in the world. And it is better quality than BMW too. Is that paint Philipino junk?

IMO labeling anything (insert country name here) "junk" as a blanket statement is a cop out and misleading. If one wants to label something junk it should be on the specifics of the item, not its place of origin.

....and bad design.....

Again, specifics please. Anyone can make that claim about anything. Why are the R2’s a bad design. You can be as specific and detailed as you like. You don’t have to dumb it down for me. Nothing on the subject of dampers is over my head.

.......that can be rebuilt and revalved...

The R2's are EASY to rebuild/re-valve.

and the camber plates can be reconfigured to match any future suspension purchase?

Are you saying that the Vorshlag CC plates are included in the price of the AST's? If not that’s irrelevant isn’t it? They are an extra cost then???

But if the budget allows a $2000+ suspension, the R2 is not the best choice.

What is the best choice then? Pricing?



I know I’m giving you a hard time here. But it is not for nothing. A few things you should be aware of.

1.) I have a MASSIVE amount of suspension design and tuning experience with some of the top manufactures in the world. I’ve worked with just about every platform there is (cars, roadrace motorcycles, MX motorcycles, ATV’s, snowmobiles, etc, etc) and in most cases in a racing environment. I don’t do it for a living anymore (thank god) but I’ll bet that I still have more suspension tools/equipment than most suspension shops that are open for business. On top of that I’m fast, lap record fast. I’m sorry but that makes me a PITA customer. “Buy This” is not a good enough reason for me, I need substance. On the flip side I can appreciate experience with a specific application more than most. For example, you undoubtedly have more data on S197’s than I do. And for that reason I would seek out your services. It’s easier than doing all the testing myself.

2.) I will be building a dedicated S197 track car next season. And for that car I will be in the market for some top shelf suspension components. I’m not posting just to argue, I really would like answers to my questions so I can make an informed buying decision when it comes time to build the track car.

3.) Don’t think of me as a blind R2 cheerleader. I don’t blindly cheerlead for parts because I have them (most people do). Go ahead and ask me what I think of Kenne Bell. I have one and you won’t get any cheerleading from me. I knew when I bought the R2’s they weren’t “the best”. I really don’t plan on doing many track days with them. But “junk” is not a word I would use to describe them either (well maybe the CC plates they come with). If you think they are junk I would like to know why. But not with reasons like “made on Mars” or “junk”. I’m looking for real reasons with substance. Who knows you could end up selling me coilovers for the car I have the R2’s on now and the track car. It wouldn’t be the first time I bought something 2 or 3 times for the same car.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'd rather have a well built Windsor than a Chinese knockoff of a Coyote.

HaHa, touche'

I'd rather have a Koni Yellow on decent springs than a chinese monotube.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Sam Strano]

I agree, for most people it would be. Car better than the driver and all that.
I’ll take a average single tube over a top shelf twin tube damper every time.

Oooh, not me. Vavling is more important than mono v. twin. And I know all the perks of a mono... runs cooler, damps small movements (less than 1/4") better, etc. The thing is, we aren't running Indycar or F1 cars. We have a lot of suspension movement, so much so that nitpicking over over 4mm of travel is kind of silly. Especially since an average mono-tube has iffy damping. Perfect example: Bilstein vs. Koni STR.T... I sell both, have run both. Find the Koni STR.T to work every bit as well as the Bilstein's. The damping control is every bit as good for much less money. And that's not an average monotube, and comparing to something less than a Koni Sport.

 

[sheizasosay]

Oooh, not me. Vavling is more important than mono v. twin. And I know all the perks of a mono... runs cooler, damps small movements (less than 1/4") better, etc. The thing is, we aren't running Indycar or F1 cars. We have a lot of suspension movement, so much so that nitpicking over over 4mm of travel is kind of silly. Especially since an average mono-tube has iffy damping. Perfect example: Bilstein vs. Koni STR.T... I sell both, have run both. Find the Koni STR.T to work every bit as well as the Bilstein's. The damping control is every bit as good for much less money. And that's not an average monotube, and comparing to something less than a Koni Sport.

The thing that is being left out is with the whole koni SRT-T's vs Bilstein HD's is that the Bilstein HD's can effectively dampen double the spring rate than a Koni can. But using your "strong bar, lighter springs" style the koni str-t's work out for the bang for buck champ.


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[Department Of Boost]

Oooh, not me. Vavling is more important than mono v. twin. And I know all the perks of a mono... runs cooler, damps small movements (less than 1/4") better, etc. The thing is, we aren't running Indycar or F1 cars. We have a lot of suspension movement, so much so that nitpicking over over 4mm of travel is kind of silly. Especially since an average mono-tube has iffy damping. Perfect example: Bilstein vs. Koni STR.T... I sell both, have run both. Find the Koni STR.T to work every bit as well as the Bilstein's. The damping control is every bit as good for much less money. And that's not an average monotube, and comparing to something less than a Koni Sport.

I know this is not the norm. But how something is valved out of the box doesn’t concern me (as long as it’s serviceable of course). I can do all of my own valving. It would take me less time to valve the car than R&R the struts/shocks and do an alignment.

That being said so far I’m more than happy with the valving in the R2’s as delivered. Now that I am running more spring rate and the car will have “slicks” on it the next time I go to the track maybe I will need to address the valving. Time will tell.

Are these the Koni’s you are referring too:
Koni STR.T
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=483&CategoryID=64&ModelID=5

I’ve driven a S197 with those teamed up with Steeda Sports and it took me all of 2 laps to over-drive what they could dampen. In short they were slowing me down.

I’ve also driven a S197 with D-specs (full hard) and their springs (240/200?) and they had noticeably better damper control but I still had to be crazy light on the controls to keep the car from “cycling” and high speed transitions were a tightrope act.

By comparison the R2’s make it feel like you not going fast enough. And then when I did step the pace up all it took was a few clicks and I was going “slow” again.

The R2’s on full soft have more damping control than the STR.T’s and the D-specs by a mile.

Again, I am not going to make the claim that the R2’s are the second coming of dampers. They are what they are, a $2000 set of fully adjustable dampers. But comparing the Koni’s or D-specs to them is down right laughable.

 

[Sam Strano]

The thing that is being left out is with the whole koni SRT-T's vs Bilstein HD's is that the Bilstein HD's can effectively dampen double the spring rate than a Koni can. But using your "strong bar, lighter springs" style the koni str-t's work out for the bang for buck champ.


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Says who? I disagree. Koni Sports have much more range of damping. Show me the dyno curves that prove the Bilstein's have that much force. You are falling for the whole "self adjusting" claim. In a Bilstein you have a damper that is non-adjustable, yet supposedly can deal with all these different spring rates. Is it magic???? How about the fact that even with one spring rate, you might opt to run different shock settings, when you have an adjustable shock, even with one give set of springs?

Bilstein's are nice shocks in terms of quality. I sell a LOT of them for Camaro's and Firebirds from 1993-2002, in fact I get them 17 sets or so at a time and do that at least monthly. But for that car, they are $379 a set, vs. $999 for Koni Sports (and there is no Koni STR.T). And I still make no bones about the Koni being superior. However, that's not the case on a Mustang. The pricing is much more reasonable on Koni, we have the STR.T option, and Bilstein's cost more. I guess I'm trying to point out that if Bilstein's were sooooo great on this car, I have no reason not to recommend them over a Koni. I'm independent, I'm free to sell either (hence the reason I mentioned how many I sell for other cars to show I'm not waving the Koni flag because I can't do the Bilstein's).

 

[Sam Strano]

I know this is not the norm. But how something is valved out of the box doesn’t concern me (as long as it’s serviceable of course). I can do all of my own valving. It would take me less time to valve the car than R&R the struts/shocks and do an alignment.

That being said so far I’m more than happy with the valving in the R2’s as delivered. Now that I am running more spring rate and the car will have “slicks” on it the next time I go to the track maybe I will need to address the valving. Time will tell.

To be fair then we are no longer talking about your "average" monotube, right?

 

[Mike K]

Gmitch can you do a build thread on your car? I'd like to see what you choose and why. The reason I ask is id like to eventually do a track car myself.

 

[Department Of Boost]

To be fair then we are no longer talking about your "average" monotube, right?

I'm calling the R2 an average to below average (when price is a factor) Monotube. I could be ranking it wrong. Thoughts?

 

[Department Of Boost]

You are falling for the whole "self adjusting" claim. In a Bilstein you have a damper that is non-adjustable, yet supposedly can deal with all these different spring rates. Is it magic????

Hahahahahahahaha, they claim that?! That’s ridiculous. A non adjustable damper is only “Perfect” for one spring rate. Every other rate is a compromise. It doesn’t have to be a horrible compromise, but it’s there.

Aerodynamics is the same way. Aero is only perfect for one speed. Every other speed is a compromise.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Gmitch can you do a build thread on your car? I'd like to see what you choose and why.

Well, the blue car (in sig) was never supposed to be a track car. It kinda just ended up there. The car is kind of a jack of all trades master of none. This spring we are planning on going to the Texas Mile with it and running 225mph-ish and still be a street car (I’m considering driving it all the way to Texas to run it). Obviously going that fast, still being a street car and also being fast at the roadrace course is about impossible. The car has never really had much direction so I’ve never done anything like a build thread on it. And its not done. This winter we are throwing the entire shop at it.

And I want a dedicated track car anyway. Something with just enough street stuff to be able to drive it on the road if I need too. Its going to be stripped right to the bone, jungle gym roll cage, stitch welded chassis, huge brakes, huge wheels and tires, lots of aero, big $$$ suspension, etc. And it will most likely be NA. I’m not looking to build a show car. It will be getting spun off the track and buried in the gravel trap every once in a while. I’m not even sure what I will be starting with as far as the “base” car goes. Could be a cracked up 2011+ 5.0, could be a 05-09 V-6 or V-8. Could be someone else’s race junk that I buy and strip down to the chassis to rebuild. I would do a “build thread” on the track car because I would be doing it fast.

The reason I ask is id like to eventually do a track car myself

The best advice I can give you is DON'T! LOL!

I roadraced motorcycles for 12yrs so I have the sickness. And it will never go away. It's too bad because racing (or even track days), while fun at times is a shit-ton of work and costs more money than you want to think about. Looking back I don't wish I never raced motorcycles.......but I do.

There is an old saying you hear a lot at the track:

Q. How do you make 5 million dollars racing?






















A. Start with 10 million

 

[sheizasosay]

Everything in my life is a compromise. I'm used to it.

Sam - Read closer, i didnt say Koni Sports. Here is the story: I got kw clubsports and the dampers are shot ...at least 2 of them for sure(rears). So I figure I would take off the rear KW's and slap a replacement on there while I got my others rebuilt. I called and talked to both koni and Bilstein. Bilstein HD's were rated to handle upto 500 in/lb spring. I've always been curious about both Bilstein and koni. I really wanted to try koni sports but that "experiment" was getting pricey. I WAS initially gonna use the Koni STR-T's, but after talking to Koni, they said they were way out of range for a 340 in/lb spring. Way out. They recommended the sports. So the manufacturers are where I got my information. And I double-tapped info on the bilsteins via Maximum Motorsports. As far as shock dynos, I'll have my kw cs' dyno'd by Penske unless AST decides to take interest for free. If that is the case, they can dyno the Bilstein's too.


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[Sam Strano]

Are these the Koni’s you are referring too:
Koni STR.T
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=483&CategoryID=64&ModelID=5

I’ve driven a S197 with those teamed up with Steeda Sports and it took me all of 2 laps to over-drive what they could dampen. In short they were slowing me down.

Hold on now.. there is way too much going on and some confusion is setting in.

*I* never said STR.T's were my personal preference, I agree you can overrun the damping of them if you drive really hard. Which is why for track guys, or guys that just like to drive hard I recommend Koni Sports... STR.T damping is about like a Sport *at full soft*. I have no doubt that in that instance the D-specs are "better" because they have more oomph in comparison, and by comparison Koni Sports are also better for the same reason (and I think superior if for no other reason than they don't link compression and rebound together).

I was comparing STR.T's and Bilstein's, that's all. I wasn't comparing STR.T's and D-spec, or Sports, or R2's...... I'm not sure that was clear. Both STR.T and Sports are Koni's so it could be when someone says I'll run a Koni that they mean Sport and someone else takes it to mean any Koni like a STR.T.

Koni makes no bones about what the STR.T's mission is. It's there to fight for the less than premium non-adjustable market... Tokico Blue kind of territory. And that's how I use it. For those looking for a damper with good street valving that make the car feel secure and give confidence, and a lifetime warranty. And fwiw, if it took you two laps to overdrive them notice it didn't take you one... and I'd never recommend those as a first choice for a car I know was going to be a track car.

 

[Sam Strano]

Everything in my life is a compromise. I'm used to it.

Sam - Read closer, i didnt say Koni Sports. Here is the story: I got kw clubsports and the dampers are shot ...at least 2 of them for sure(rears). So I figure I would take off the rear KW's and slap a replacement on there while I got my others rebuilt. I called and talked to both koni and Bilstein. Bilstein HD's were rated to handle upto 500 in/lb spring. I've always been curious about both Bilstein and koni. I really wanted to try koni sports but that "experiment" was getting pricey. I WAS initially gonna use the Koni STR-T's, but after talking to Koni, they said they were way out of range for a 340 in/lb spring. Way out. They recommended the sports. So the manufacturers are where I got my information. And I double-tapped info on the bilsteins via Maximum Motorsports. As far as shock dynos, I'll have my kw cs' dyno'd by Penske unless AST decides to take interest for free. If that is the case, they can dyno the Bilstein's too.

No, Bilstein told you they could handle a 500 pound spring. And just on the face of it, I'll say that's bullshit (not that you are lying I believe they might have told you that, but it doesn't make it true). Why on earth would they do such a thing when stock springs are in the mid 140's, and even things like H&R Race (Bilstein and H&R being hooked up, they make the H&R coil-over dampers) are 325? Does that make sense????

Koni told you the truth, and I'd also not recommend STR.T for springs of that rate, but Sports. And that's the rub. What do you think Bilstein knows that Koni does not? Spring rate requires rebound damping to control it. Bilstein's have a set valving, it's not adjustable (see also that they are now making damping adjustable stuff for some of their coil-overs because they know that what they claim isn't really possible)... so how exactly do you square their claim of up to 500 lbs/in including everything less, like stock *without* the ability to adjust? The only way is if they were valved stiff enough to damp the 500, and then you just deal with a shit-ton of rebound that is severely overdamping anything less.

As for MM.... yeah, they are also up Bilstein's butt about as far as Steeda is up Tokico's. What were they going to say? I sell all 3 brands, and KW, and Eibach, etc..... I have no axe to grind because I can sell any of those I want, I just use what I feel is best. Period.

In the end, here's the difference. I've driven both. I'm not basing this on what some dude at Bilstein and Koni told me. What you are believing is that Bilstein's are magic and can do it all. I'm sorry they can't. If they could, why would they make HD and Sport vavling for a lot of cars? They don't for the Mustang, but they do for a lot of cars and if they could do it all without adjustment there'd be no need to do that, right?

 

[Whiskey11]

I spend a lot of time reading in this section, but not much posting. I’m here to learn.

But after reading your posts lately I would like to make some comments.

Selling and having “The Best” sounds like a great way to go. Who wouldn’t want to? You’re missing something though. What are the 99% of us who can’t afford “The Best” to do? Just leave our cars stock?

And frankly your posts lead me to believe that unless I have a pocket full of money, don’t bother giving you a call. The vast majority of the Mustang crowd can hardly imagine spending $2000 on coilovers, let alone $3000, $4000, $5000, $6000……… And according to you all you can get for $2000 is “Chinese Junk”.

It seems like you have a pretty cool shop there, do neat builds and you sell a lot of high end stuff. Should I feel inferior because I can’t throw money around like you and your customers can? Because that is the tone I get from your posts.

I’d rather deal with someone who understand the average Joe like Sam Strano. He won’t make me feel like I’m not good enough because I have a budget.

And as a parting gift, a word to the wise. I’ve spent a lot of years in sales, I’ve run large sales teams, done lots of advanced sales training and sold everything from industrial equipment to motorsports products. And one very important thing that my time in sales has taught me is that you NEVER disparage the product/item/service you are selling against. You instead sell the advantages/benefits/etc of yours. When all you do is rip apart the “competition” you torpedo your own credibility and run the very real risk of loosing the sale because no one wants to sit there an listen to negativity piled on negativity.

You are selling some nice products. You should have no problem selling them on their benefits opposed to your perceived shortcomings of what you are selling against.

Good luck

I had to comment on your impression of Terry. I'm no expert on all things Terry, but both times I met Terry, at Spring Nationals and Nationals, he took time out of his busy schedule to tell me about his car. Most of it is stuff I saw on his forum posts. Not once did he try and sell me a product. At Spring Nationals he took probably close to 20 minutes to give me an in person walk around of their 2011 without me asking. When I approached his trailer, I went in with the expectation to introduce myself, wish him luck, thank him for posting a lot of good info probably to his own detriment, and then leave. What I got was the 20 minute walk around. At Nationals he spent probably 5 minutes chatting with me after his runs even though his wife was practically dragging him away to help her get ready for her runs. No one forced him to. I think he's a great guy. I think Sam is too. Both have very different personalities and both are tremendous resources.

I think you are getting the wrong impression of him. Add in the fact that he is tip toeing around Vendor rules here at S197Forum (he did try to become one here) and you are getting raw information open to interpretation. Maybe it's because I work with sales people all day, but I don't read any sales pitch in his posts. I see info, yes, which may help sway someone towards or away from certain products, but a direct sales pitch, no.

I for one am very happy to have as many people here that are as capable at driving these cars as we have. I hope to one day join them in people who can make these pigs turn.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Hold on now.. there is way too much going on and some confusion is setting in.

*I* never said STR.T's were my personal preference, I agree you can overrun the damping of them if you drive really hard. Which is why for track guys, or guys that just like to drive hard I recommend Koni Sports... STR.T damping is about like a Sport *at full soft*. I have no doubt that in that instance the D-specs are "better" because they have more oomph in comparison, and by comparison Koni Sports are also better for the same reason (and I think superior if for no other reason than they don't link compression and rebound together).

I was comparing STR.T's and Bilstein's, that's all. I wasn't comparing STR.T's and D-spec, or Sports, or R2's...... I'm not sure that was clear. Both STR.T and Sports are Koni's so it could be when someone says I'll run a Koni that they mean Sport and someone else takes it to mean any Koni like a STR.T.

Koni makes no bones about what the STR.T's mission is. It's there to fight for the less than premium non-adjustable market... Tokico Blue kind of territory. And that's how I use it. For those looking for a damper with good street valving that make the car feel secure and give confidence, and a lifetime warranty. And fwiw, if it took you two laps to overdrive them notice it didn't take you one... and I'd never recommend those as a first choice for a car I know was going to be a track car.

Your right, things are getting confusing.

I have no doubt that the Koni STR.T’s are a huge improvement over stock, priced right and probably more capable than most drivers. And for the record it took me two laps to over-drive them because I was in a car I had never driven before (not mine), with the owner sitting next to me, and wasn’t sure how long it would take to get heat in the tires

The only reason I brought up the D-specs is I drove on those the same day and it was clear how much more damping was available. Not what I would consider “open track” damping (there were some Porsche’s and Corvette’s out there that would say they worked great though) but enough to get a little “fruity” if I wanted to. That being said they would be near useless with some “big boy” springs to control.

So you draw a parallel between the Koni Sports (Yellows?) and the D-specs in regards to performance level? If I am reading your site they are rebound adjustable not comp/reb like the D-spec? If so I would rather go that way myself.

Please take my Koni-D-spec-R2 damping comparison as just that, a comparison. It wasn’t meant to show one was better than the other. Just the available damping differences between them. Comparing Koni STR.T’s vs R2’s is silly. There are no parallels to be drawn between them, especially price.

 

[Department Of Boost]

... Maybe it's because I work with sales people all day, but I don't read any sales pitch in his posts. I see info, yes, which may help sway someone towards or away from certain products, but a direct sales pitch, no.

I for one am very happy to have as many people here that are as capable at driving these cars as we have. I hope to one day join them in people who can make these pigs turn.

None of that^^ addresses this:

And as a parting gift, a word to the wise. I’ve spent a lot of years in sales, I’ve run large sales teams, done lots of advanced sales training and sold everything from industrial equipment to motorsports products. And one very important thing that my time in sales has taught me is that you NEVER disparage the product/item/service you are selling against. You instead sell the advantages/benefits/etc of yours. When all you do is rip apart the “competition” you torpedo your own credibility and run the very real risk of loosing the sale because no one wants to sit there an listen to negativity piled on negativity.

You are selling some nice products. You should have no problem selling them on their benefits opposed to your perceived shortcomings of what you are selling against.