From Koni to bilstein. I've seen the light. Thanks vorshlag!
- Thread starter white86hatch
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^^ This
Guys, guys, guys... I step away from the forums and miss some threads for a few weeks and yall lose your minds. 
A few folks (like kcbrown and others) really like the adjustable Konis, and asked some really good questions. I wasn't ignoring them - just buried with work and haven't been on the forums almost at all. Some of the numbers don't work, because there are no lowering springs that are in the spring rates range that were mentioned (all of the many we have tested are 0-60% stiffer than stock, when measured by someone who knows how to use a spring rating machine). Don't confuse coilover spring rates with lowering springs, which are ALL soft in comparison. We add 300-700% to the front spring rates with coilovers on the S197. Because these fat cars NEED it to resist dive and roll with proper tires.
The car above has 800#/in springs and Whiteline bars on full stiff, and still has significant roll
Without the spring rates a coilover can provide, there's only so much you can hope for with lowering springs, but its a big cost savings to stick with this system vs a proper coilover. The OEM rates of 100-150#/in are so soft that the cars flop around and roll and dive like crazy, on the stock tires. When you up the mechanical grip things go nuts, and this is why people bottom out stock length shocks with lowering springs in autocrosses and on a road course. Never mind when they hit a bump on the street, that can make for a "total loss of bump travel" as well.
Here are the facts about the dampers we use in the StreetPro kit of Bilstein B6 monotubes + Vorshlag camber plates + Ford Racing lowering springs...
1. We tested a number of Bilstein B6 monotubes made for the S197. There are many part numbers for front struts and rear shocks.
2. We found a set of shocks and struts that had what we felt was good valving when used with lowering springs
3. The front struts we found are shorter than stock by 1.5" - which translates into 1.5" of additional bump travel (but less droop travel).
4. When you lower a car on shorter springs but leave the struts the stock length ALL of the amount lowered is lost in BUMP TRAVEL.
5. "Topping out" a strut or shock is not damaging, and hard to do. Bottoming out of a strut or shock is BAD and pushes the spring rate to infinite. This can adversely affect ride and handling, to a major degree.
We are packaging the best length Bilstein monotubes we could find with lowering springs that lower these 4x4 OEM ride heights (that was my 2011 Brembo GT when it was bone stock, above) by about 1-1.5 inches, but since we found the shorter front strut you aren't losing the normal 1-1.5" of bump travel that would be lost with stock length struts. Konis, Tokicos, KYBs, "Ford Racing" struts, and virtuatlly anything else made to use the OEM style springs are the same OEM length and DO lose significant bump travel when used with lowering springs.
This is why many people complain of poor ride with Konis (or whatever OEM length twin tubes) with lowering springs - they are slamming into the bump stops constantly. This can and will damage the struts and shocks over time. But with ANY twin tube shock design, its hard is sometimes to tell when they are blown. Why?
1. Twin tubes can leak internally, which isn't visible on the outside (unlike a monotube - when you know when they are leaking/blown)
2. The consistency of a twin tube from shock to shock is so poor its sometimes hard to tell when its blown. The ride goes from bad to worse, but some folks don't notice until they take the shocks off the car.
3. With the shocks removed from the car you can compress the shaft and if they don't automatically come back to full extension, the Nitrogen charge has leaked out and they need to be rebuilt.
Jon from Vorshlag had scored some autocross wins on Konis and lowering springs in his 2006 GT, below. He bought them new, had them for 6 whole months, and ran a lot of autocrosses and daily drove them. We were bugging him about how bad it rode, so he pulled off the shocks to check them. One front and one rear were BLOWN. These were 6 months old, and he was still winning most autocrosses on them, they just rode crappier than normal.
So "winning" doesn't always mean "not blown". He went back to the OEM struts for a month and the ride improvement he felt was DRAMATIC. The $40 per corner OEM win tubes (not blown) and tall springs rode so much better it was funny.
Then he stepped up to monotube double adjustable MCS TT2 coilovers, and went from 100-130 #/in front springs to 550#/in front springs. Brake dive is GONE, roll is dramatically reduced, and he is FASTER. It also rides better with 5x the spring rate up front than the Konis on the relatively soft lowering springs. At the last Texas Region SCCA event he dominated CAM-T class with a gap to 2nd place over 3/4 of a second. He is unbeaten on the MCS coilovers and understands first hand now that PROPER SHOCKS MATTER. This is what it usually takes - first hand experience with the WORST options and the BETTER options to understand all this. You can read a million reviews and not get the experience of feeling the difference.
I'm willing to bet that a significant portion of the Koni users here that have 12+ months and/or significant miles on their shocks with lowering springs, if they took the dampers off their car they'd find at least one shock that was blown - one with no Nitrogen charge left. Take em off, compress the shafts, and see if they come back to full extension.
On Price: The particular part number Bilsteins we use in the StreetPro kit have been on National backorder, but these are not "made for us", and lots of people buy them, and they do run out of stock. Since Bilstein has no dealer pricing / MAP policy and will let ANYONE sell their stuff, some kid living in his mom's basement and selling random car parts on a website he buys content for, drop shipping everything he sells, is going to have a lower price than us. I did the math and found one clown selling them for 6% above cost, and complained bitterly to Bilstein USA (who gives zero f*cks). We are a real shop, with a real brick and mortar location, and employees that have real salaries... we can't get by on 6% margins, so you aren't going to find the lowest price on regular Bilsteins from us. Ever.
But if you appreciate the work we've done, buy them for us for a tiny bit more. If you appreciate convenience of having the right Bilstein B6 dampers coupled with springs we have tested first hand and Vorshlag camber plates, all pre-assembled and packaged together, then buy them from us. Or don't, be a "bargain hunter" and buy them from the kid in his bunny slippers working out of his mom's basement, who has never even seen the parts he drop-ship-sells, never answers the phone, and slings all sorts of random crap on his eBay store at bottom dollar prices. But if something ever goes wrong (like the guy who brock a bracket? weird) you can CALL US and talk to a human being who has not only seen and touched these shocks before, has driven on them, tracked them, autocrossed them, and knows what's up. Real tech support is available to our customers.
We have our adjustable height coilover converted Bilsteins coming soon. We bought the last 4 struts in the Nation a week ago to make a small run. Ryan here at Vorshlag built a dyno fixture for the S197 struts earlier this week, and those are being dyno'd later this week. Along with an S197 Koni adjustable, and an MCS TT series strut. We will post that data soon. #bringthetech
That's all I have time for, back to the CNC machines...
A few folks (like kcbrown and others) really like the adjustable Konis, and asked some really good questions. I wasn't ignoring them - just buried with work and haven't been on the forums almost at all. Some of the numbers don't work, because there are no lowering springs that are in the spring rates range that were mentioned (all of the many we have tested are 0-60% stiffer than stock, when measured by someone who knows how to use a spring rating machine). Don't confuse coilover spring rates with lowering springs, which are ALL soft in comparison. We add 300-700% to the front spring rates with coilovers on the S197. Because these fat cars NEED it to resist dive and roll with proper tires.
The car above has 800#/in springs and Whiteline bars on full stiff, and still has significant roll
Without the spring rates a coilover can provide, there's only so much you can hope for with lowering springs, but its a big cost savings to stick with this system vs a proper coilover. The OEM rates of 100-150#/in are so soft that the cars flop around and roll and dive like crazy, on the stock tires. When you up the mechanical grip things go nuts, and this is why people bottom out stock length shocks with lowering springs in autocrosses and on a road course. Never mind when they hit a bump on the street, that can make for a "total loss of bump travel" as well.
Here are the facts about the dampers we use in the StreetPro kit of Bilstein B6 monotubes + Vorshlag camber plates + Ford Racing lowering springs...
1. We tested a number of Bilstein B6 monotubes made for the S197. There are many part numbers for front struts and rear shocks.
2. We found a set of shocks and struts that had what we felt was good valving when used with lowering springs
3. The front struts we found are shorter than stock by 1.5" - which translates into 1.5" of additional bump travel (but less droop travel).
4. When you lower a car on shorter springs but leave the struts the stock length ALL of the amount lowered is lost in BUMP TRAVEL.
5. "Topping out" a strut or shock is not damaging, and hard to do. Bottoming out of a strut or shock is BAD and pushes the spring rate to infinite. This can adversely affect ride and handling, to a major degree.
We are packaging the best length Bilstein monotubes we could find with lowering springs that lower these 4x4 OEM ride heights (that was my 2011 Brembo GT when it was bone stock, above) by about 1-1.5 inches, but since we found the shorter front strut you aren't losing the normal 1-1.5" of bump travel that would be lost with stock length struts. Konis, Tokicos, KYBs, "Ford Racing" struts, and virtuatlly anything else made to use the OEM style springs are the same OEM length and DO lose significant bump travel when used with lowering springs.
This is why many people complain of poor ride with Konis (or whatever OEM length twin tubes) with lowering springs - they are slamming into the bump stops constantly. This can and will damage the struts and shocks over time. But with ANY twin tube shock design, its hard is sometimes to tell when they are blown. Why?
1. Twin tubes can leak internally, which isn't visible on the outside (unlike a monotube - when you know when they are leaking/blown)
2. The consistency of a twin tube from shock to shock is so poor its sometimes hard to tell when its blown. The ride goes from bad to worse, but some folks don't notice until they take the shocks off the car.
3. With the shocks removed from the car you can compress the shaft and if they don't automatically come back to full extension, the Nitrogen charge has leaked out and they need to be rebuilt.
Jon from Vorshlag had scored some autocross wins on Konis and lowering springs in his 2006 GT, below. He bought them new, had them for 6 whole months, and ran a lot of autocrosses and daily drove them. We were bugging him about how bad it rode, so he pulled off the shocks to check them. One front and one rear were BLOWN. These were 6 months old, and he was still winning most autocrosses on them, they just rode crappier than normal.
So "winning" doesn't always mean "not blown". He went back to the OEM struts for a month and the ride improvement he felt was DRAMATIC. The $40 per corner OEM win tubes (not blown) and tall springs rode so much better it was funny.
Then he stepped up to monotube double adjustable MCS TT2 coilovers, and went from 100-130 #/in front springs to 550#/in front springs. Brake dive is GONE, roll is dramatically reduced, and he is FASTER. It also rides better with 5x the spring rate up front than the Konis on the relatively soft lowering springs. At the last Texas Region SCCA event he dominated CAM-T class with a gap to 2nd place over 3/4 of a second. He is unbeaten on the MCS coilovers and understands first hand now that PROPER SHOCKS MATTER. This is what it usually takes - first hand experience with the WORST options and the BETTER options to understand all this. You can read a million reviews and not get the experience of feeling the difference.
I'm willing to bet that a significant portion of the Koni users here that have 12+ months and/or significant miles on their shocks with lowering springs, if they took the dampers off their car they'd find at least one shock that was blown - one with no Nitrogen charge left. Take em off, compress the shafts, and see if they come back to full extension.
On Price: The particular part number Bilsteins we use in the StreetPro kit have been on National backorder, but these are not "made for us", and lots of people buy them, and they do run out of stock. Since Bilstein has no dealer pricing / MAP policy and will let ANYONE sell their stuff, some kid living in his mom's basement and selling random car parts on a website he buys content for, drop shipping everything he sells, is going to have a lower price than us. I did the math and found one clown selling them for 6% above cost, and complained bitterly to Bilstein USA (who gives zero f*cks). We are a real shop, with a real brick and mortar location, and employees that have real salaries... we can't get by on 6% margins, so you aren't going to find the lowest price on regular Bilsteins from us. Ever.
But if you appreciate the work we've done, buy them for us for a tiny bit more. If you appreciate convenience of having the right Bilstein B6 dampers coupled with springs we have tested first hand and Vorshlag camber plates, all pre-assembled and packaged together, then buy them from us. Or don't, be a "bargain hunter" and buy them from the kid in his bunny slippers working out of his mom's basement, who has never even seen the parts he drop-ship-sells, never answers the phone, and slings all sorts of random crap on his eBay store at bottom dollar prices. But if something ever goes wrong (like the guy who brock a bracket? weird) you can CALL US and talk to a human being who has not only seen and touched these shocks before, has driven on them, tracked them, autocrossed them, and knows what's up. Real tech support is available to our customers.
We have our adjustable height coilover converted Bilsteins coming soon. We bought the last 4 struts in the Nation a week ago to make a small run. Ryan here at Vorshlag built a dyno fixture for the S197 struts earlier this week, and those are being dyno'd later this week. Along with an S197 Koni adjustable, and an MCS TT series strut. We will post that data soon. #bringthetech
That's all I have time for, back to the CNC machines...
Last edited:
ArizonaGT
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In for MCS TT strut plot; also in before more customers fired.
white86hatch
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Bunny slippers.....lmao
tigercrazy718
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Terry that is a great post. Never even really thought about the Koni's being blown because I assumed my car rode like crap because race car. I might have to check all the shocks when I do my Boss S control arms now, since I will be taking off the spindles to get milled anyways. I will report my findings when that happens.
white86hatch
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For what it's worth my first failed set rode like crap long before they started popping like you'd expect a blown strut to do. When I put the second brand new set of Koni's on it was night and day difference..... Then they too went to poop. My new special order uber custom off the shelf bilsteins from vorshlag that Sebastian Vettel personally spit on have not hit the poop phase yet and I don't expect they will for a while.
I am Legend
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white86hatch
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tigercrazy718
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I'm not 100% sure what a blown strut feels like, but I have had them on the car for at least 4 years, so it would be an interesting test of durability. If they're blown though, I'll probably keep on running them because they have been serving me well so far.
white86hatch
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Dew wut? Why would you continue running on a failed part?
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tigercrazy718
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Should've clarified that. I meant on the street, which is hardly ever, until I can get them fixed. Then keep the konis if I can get them repaired because they've served me well.
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white86hatch
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LOL. I was wondering where the logic in that was for a second.
tigercrazy718
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Yea sorry haha it made sense in my head.
tigercrazy718
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Can you not get them repaired under warranty? Damn I was under the impression that was possible.
white86hatch
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You can. But like any warranty it's up to their discretion. If they deem the failure was caused by "misuse" then denied.
tigercrazy718
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Did you try getting yours fixed under warranty?
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