Ground Control/RA1 = 6+ seconds

[Sam Strano]

Let me see if I can clear this up for you guys.....

1. Koni Sports is a generic terms that applies to any Koni "yellow". If you modify it to work on a car, does that make it a Koni Sport for an S197 Mustang? I don't think so, because it implies that it's the Koni Sport that Koni makes for the car. If it's a Sport insert that's been worked to work in the car--that's a different beast than claiming it's that particular shock for the car from Koni. And at that point, you aren't dealing with Koni spec anymore you are dealing with what that company determines for valving.

I know it might see like splitting hairs, but it's not as we are talking about two different parts completely.

2. Camaro had Koni's, my springs (I make springs for those cars) and my swaybars installed on it, plus the tire change. Without the tire change the car was 3.4 seconds a lap faster. I'm not directly comparing the cars though they both weigh the same and are both rwd V-8 powered. Only showing your results aren't magic considering the tire change, etc on a course of that length. That's all.

3. Fair enough.

4. I can't be everywhere, if you have specific questions, then you need to contact me directly.

5. Yes, they are all underneath the tower.

 

[NEMustang]

But the other part? I thought Sam suggested that GC wasn't using the Sports as the basis of their customization, not that they weren't using any Koni shocks whatsoever. One claim is a charge of miscomunication somewhere down the line...the other is a charge of lying.

I run the Sports, so I'd be curious to see anyone's thoughts on how different they are from what GC has put together (aside from the obvious, which is that they're coil-overs).

-j

I got a clarification from GC. Koni strut inserts built to GC custom specs to handle shorter strut mount ~ 2" (some argue this is unnecessary), custom valved by Koni...not by GC, but to GC specs. Same with Griggs...valving specs based on shock dyno testing and more and matched with spring rates. They basically have three valving/spring setups...Street, Street/Track, and Track. I had asked for shock dyno sheets last week and they are being sent to me. GC is also having Koni send a letter to me attesting to the inserts/valving.

Sam Strano stated:
1. Ground Control does NOT revalve Koni Sports for the S197, they are using some other Koni (and god knows what it really starts as).

So Sam is correct that they are not Koni Sports and GC does not revalve them. HOWEVER:

- Koni custom valves the shocks based on GC specs.
- The Koni inserts are custom sized/built based on GC specs for shorted strut.
- GC builds the strut housing.
- Eibach springs are custom based on GC specs.

So, the question is...if you're a Koni guy...are the standard Koni Sports for S197 satisfactory or has GC been able to improve (based on input from Griggs Racing also) the valving with matched coil over springs? Note the GC rears shocks are Koni Sports w/custom valving done at Koni. The springs are in the stock location with an adjustable mount...Griggs uses coil overs.

I hope this helps clear up the GC "custom" question.

 

[Sam Strano]

Please see the edit in my post #5 to point #1 for clarification. I now see where someone might have though I was saying they weren't Koni parts at all--and I did not mean to imply that.

 

[Sam Strano]

I got a clarification from GC. Koni strut inserts built to GC custom specs to handle shorter strut mount ~ 2" (some argue this is unnecessary), custom valved by Koni...not by GC, but to GC specs. Same with Griggs...valving specs based on shock dyno testing and more and matched with spring rates. They basically have three valving/spring setups...Street, Street/Track, and Track. I had asked for shock dyno sheets last week and they are being sent to me. GC is also having Koni send a letter to me attesting to the inserts/valving.

Sam Strano stated:
1. Ground Control does NOT revalve Koni Sports for the S197, they are using some other Koni (and god knows what it really starts as).

So Sam is correct that they are not Koni Sports and GC does not revalve them. HOWEVER:

- Koni custom valves the shocks based on GC specs.
- The Koni inserts are custom sized/built based on GC specs for shorted strut.
- GC builds the strut housing.
- Eibach springs are custom based on GC specs.

So, the question is...if you're a Koni guy...are the standard Koni Sports for S197 satisfactory or has GC been able to improve (based on input from Griggs Racing also) the valving with matched coil over springs? Note the GC rears shocks are Koni Sports w/custom valving done at Koni. The springs are in the stock location with an adjustable mount...Griggs uses coil overs.

I hope this helps clear up the GC "custom" question.

If GC does the specs, does that make it a true Koni anymore since part of what I buy Koni's for is the valving? Also, if a man is talking and there is no woman around to hear him--is he still wrong?

My point has been made. They are not production "normal" Koni's. We don't know the details exactly, and I frankly find Koni Sport valving to be pretty kick ass to start with. In fact, while no Ground Control fan--I'll say their coil-over stuff works just fine. And because of that, I'd recommend Koni Sports and buying the slip on coil-over setup to slide onto to production Koni's.

Have they been able to improve them? I'm sure they think so. But I've been running full length (not shortened) production Sports since '08 on the Shelby (lowered 1.5" vs a stock car) and they work great and I was nowhere near full firm they had plenty of damping to control the kind of rates I like---now with 440's which is about double any normal lowering spring, and more than 100 lbs./in stiffer than even the pretty brutal H&R Race (which I also had and the Koni Sports damped perfectly well) then I guess maybe you'd want to revalve 'em. Then the question is what do they have done? Do they add more high-speed? Low-speed? Are they digressive, do they make them more linear? etc....

 

[NEMustang]

Please see the edit in my post #5 to point #1 for clarification. I now see where someone might have though I was saying they weren't Koni parts at all--and I did not mean to imply that.

Thanks. I didn't read it that way...

about the other changes...nothing is magic. Any other set of struts/shocks/springs along with the tire change would probably yield slightly better or worse. It would not be smart to put on sticky tires without balancing the car with other changes. So I looked for a system. The GC product was a package of sorts that reduced the additional body roll induced by adding DOT r-compounds (non-slicks). The car changed from heavy understeer to med-light over steer. Some induced by possible excessive track camber, some by shock settings. Minor tuning of the shocks balanced the car and run times continued to decrease...by driver getting used to the changes and by reducing oversteer.

To go faster, we tune, test and get seat time. At a point, we should leave the car alone and continue to work on driver improvement.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[Sam Strano]

No problem, glad we got it cleared up.

 

[Liftedbronco]

haha. nice work sam. thanks for following up on that.

 

[NEMustang]

Official Response from Koni on Ground Control:

Official Response from Koni on Ground Control:

From: "Grimes, Lee - ITT Motion Technologies" <[email protected]>
To: Jay <[email protected]>, Mark <[email protected]>
Cc:
Subject: Ground Control and KONI
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:28:34 -0700

Official Statement:

This note is to confirm that that KONI Shock Absorbers has for many years specifically made a number of special dampers to Ground Control's exclusive valving and dimensional specifications. Although some of the early Ground Control units ended in "Sport", we have specifically created the part number suffix SPGC (meaning "Sport Ground Control") to denote that those parts are made exclusively for Ground Control in the KONI factory in The Netherlands.

Lee Grimes
KONI North America


Which means to me that they are Koni Sports, custom valved and custom sized for GC. The Koni lifetime warranty applies. I hope that this helps clear up some of the GC Shock/Strut questions.

The Shock Dyno results for my particular application are on the way to me.

 

[DusterRT]

I think what Sam is getting at is that Koni is both a manufacturer and a suspension tuner; buying Koni shocks gets you both their parts and their tuning expertise. With a custom valve job like the GC setup, you get the parts and warranty, but not their tuning. Obviously Koni likely has a larger R&D budget, more sophisticated equipment, etc. but that doesn't mean GC can't tune suspensions. I would like to assume a company like Griggs wouldn't use them for their entry level stuff if they were crap (unless Griggs has their own specific valving). I would also imagine the Konis are tuned to serve a lot of purposes since as far as I know it's the only off the shelf adjustable strut/shock they offer, and likely make compromises to best suit a wide variety of uses.

That said, I've had a GC street setup for over a year and 18,000 miles now on a DD car and have been happy with it on and off the track. I have not owned/driven a Koni sport equipped S197 however, so I cannot compare the two..

 

[NEMustang]

DusterRT

Agreed. Koni is a suspension tuner and puts out an S197 package that is the same regardless of usage. Ground Control has different 3 different valvings based on usage with matching springs. Griggs uses the same valving. I'm unsure who developed the valving specs (GC or Griggs or both together). Does any of this really make a difference?


What I liked from GC over standard Koni Sports was:

1. Matched springs to valving (I'll probably get 10 more responses on this alone!)
2. Shortened strut (some say its not important)
3. Tuning of Koni (Sports are the same)
4. Ride Height adjustability (Corner weighting)
5. Integrated CC plates (MM or Steeda may be as good or better)
6. Better strut mounts
7. Urethane bushings on rear
8. Griggs reputation...I have a full Griggs GR350 suspension for my '65. I trust what Bruce Griggs says and uses.

There are many different options for the S197 from KW/Koni/Steeda/Roush/FRPP etc...This was my choice, the quality is superb, Jay from GC has responded to every question, concern etc. and the performance has been more than I expected.

I also had reviewed your installation post and other posts by you before purchasing...thanks for posting:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15661

 

[Liftedbronco]

may I add that from my speaking with Jay at GC...the owner of GC is very excited about the mustang package that he had put together. To the point where development of products for other cars had taken a back seat so resources could be diverted to the development of this package.

So with that, it makes me feel better buying from them. Clearly our package isnt a thrown together afterthought...or more marketing then technology. So I definitley still want their setup on my car. As ive said, I have it on my 84 porsche 944. I love it. Their tech has been wonderful. They have sent me replacement parts for free basically no questions asked. Theyre the best aftermarket company that ive ever dealt with as far as support and warranty.

 

[DusterRT]

I also had reviewed your installation post and other posts by you before purchasing...thanks for posting:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15661

I had to laugh a bit when I saw that post again...I installed all that stuff working in the street. I'm now spoiled with a shop with more square feet than a lot of people's homes.

 

[DRock]

I dont mean to thread jack but i was just wondering if you did the install of the coilovers yourself and if you ran into any of the problems that Duster ran into.

Thanxs

 

[NEMustang]

I dont mean to thread jack but i was just wondering if you did the install of the coilovers yourself and if you ran into any of the problems that Duster ran into.

Thanxs

The installation was simple. I did not have an issue with having to grind the CC plates nor did I have an issue either the sway bar tab. I did have to use a new bolt in the brake hose bracket. Also, I used a screwdriver, as DusterRT did, to keep the rear spring adjustment bolt still while installing...all in all...very simple installation.

The coil over adjusters work just fine. I started with stock and then lowered ride heights. I do have UMI rear control arm relocation brackets to correct the rear geometry.

The only problem I had was that Jay sent the wrong rear springs. He immediately acknowledged this simple mistake and overnighted the correct springs in time for me to make a track date.

I'm very satisfied with the product. Everything is of exceptional quality and worked as advertised. The support was great.

 

[DRock]

I think you might of just made their next customer.......

Thank You