KB Boost-A-Spark

[05bluestang]

+1 If anyone has this info please post it up.

Yes, please.................
Or maybe i should just look into replacing the ECM harness? That ought to be a pretty penny............

this is frustrating as hell

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

My problem (According to Chris Rose) is that for some reason my spark voltage is too low. We ran the plugs at .35, no dice, got worse, then we followed Techcos instructions and used ungapped plugs in it, power went up but is still shitty. Sometimes it runs like a 500hp car and some days it's down on power but still runs good (meaning no misfires that I can tell) I'm stumped, Tillman want's to tear into the wiring harnesses for the engine to look for a short, but before I let them do that I want to explore any possible options before I myself..................

If your spark voltage is too low then I'd say there is a problem with your ECU (PCM). The computer controls all of that and sends the signal to each COP. I doubt you have 8 bad COPs. One or two maybe, but not all 8. Did they check the spark voltage on more than 1 COP?

Also, from your other post, it looks like the KB product would increase spark energy...significantly! A 10X improvement in current would be a 100X increase in spark energy.

HTH

Mike

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

Where you able to measure an increase in voltage on the primary side with the BAS? Fundamentally, increasing primary voltage is a VERY sound idea. Of course, I have NO idea if they did it right on the BAS.

And in general, Power (P) = Voltage (V) * Current (I). P is also = V^2/I and I^2*R. The more power you get into that coil, the more power available to generate a high voltage spark on the secondary. Decreasing the resistance on the primary will allow more current to flow through the coil, aka: more power. But increasing voltage should do the exact same thing.

Doing what you did and upgrading the wiring to the coils (aka: decrease primary resistance) is probably the very best first step (and the cheapest as well). After that, you can either change the coils to something that will store more energy in the primary or up the voltage at the coils to get more energy into the spark.

Of course, as far as coils are concerned, all we ever hear is "they are xxk volt coils" which doesn't tell you a damn thing about how well they actually work. You could rewind the secondary on a coil until it could produce a million volt spark. Unfortunately, it would have so little energy in the spark that it couldn't light off the Hendenberg, let alone a blown engine with several hundred psi of cylinder pressure. So, they need to use more, thicker wire and/or better cores in those "high voltage" coils to actually store more energy in the primary. That, of course, means the coils WILL be bigger than the stock ones by default. The ones I have seen all look to be the same size as stock (with a different paint job of course), so I have to wonder just how much more energy that can possibly have. And I have yet to see any of these companies actually release detailed specs on their coils.

Driving the primaries with more voltage is definitely a good thing. I = V/R, so increasing voltage will also increase the current flowing through the coil. More voltage and more current equals more power stored in the primary of the coil. That's all good. And you get this extra power with the exact same coil that came on the car.

But that only works if the BAS is actually implemented correctly and actually allows that extra current to flow through the coils. Which assumes the wiring and the coil can handle that extra power.

One other thing to keep in mind folks: It takes XX volts to ionize the spark path and generate a spark across the plug. That value changes depending on a LOT of variables, but it goes up with increased cylinder pressure (which is why spark blow out is a big issue for blown cars, but almost unheard of on stock cars). If it takes 20k volts to ionize the spark path and you have "60kV" coils on it, you WILL NOT have 60kV going across the plug! You will have 20kV. And falling fast as the current further ionizes the conductive path across the spark gap. I have no doubt that even stock coils on stock wiring can generate enough voltage to ionize the spark gap on pretty much ANY blown engine. The problem is that by the time it does, it has used up SO much energy generating that voltage, it doesn't have any energy left for current flow. Which leaves a very weak spark that is easily "blown out" as it just doesn't have enough energy to light the fire.

Here is an example of why not just a spark is needed, but energy as well. I built an ignitor circuit for my grill ( I was tired of the stock grill ignitor not working half the time). This circuit was pretty much a single cylinder electronic ignition system using a coil from my old pickup (1981 Ford F100) and one of it's old spark plugs. It was microprocessor controlled and used an IGBT that was designed for switching ignition coils. It could easily generate a 400hz spark (equivalent to that V8 running at 6000 rpm) across that plug. A nice purple spark too.

When I went to test it, the bloody thing couldn't light my LP grill! I spent about 5 minutes scratching my head (and cussing) trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Then I finally remembered that whole pressure thing. It takes MUCH less voltage to light a spark at atmospheric pressure than it does inside our engines after compression. MUCH less. So, there is actually very little voltage across the spark. The current is limited by the secondary coil winding resistance (and the resistance across the spark gap), so I had VERY little energy in the spark, even though the coil could fire it effortlessly.

I went back in the house and grabbed board and mounted a couple of copper wires on it with a 5/8" gap (yes, 675 thousands). The coil fired that almost most as easily, but it was DEFINITELY dumping a LOT more energy into that gap than the plug. Back to the grill and the ignitor lite it off instantly, as expected.

So just keep in mind that there is a hell of a lot more going on in an ignition system than "voltage"...

+ 1

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

The solution is not to buy the BAS (which does NOTHING on the 3V's) - the solution to your problem is to upgrade the wiring to your coils...

To put it simply - think of your alternator - if you run an alternator that puts out 19.2 volts but use the 12 volt stock wires back to the battery - do you think the battery is going to see 19.2 volts? I went through this personally. When I upgraded the wire to the battery to 0 gauge - instant fix.

The same exact thing with the BAS. I never got any spark increase out of it - I took it off and as soon as I upgraded to a bigger gauge for the coil wires - blowout disappeared.

+ 1

Just remember, the lower the number the bigger the wire! I am going to venture a guess that #14 wire would significantly reduce your resistance to the coils and let a lot more current flow to them.

ALso, if any of your connectors to the COPs are corroded, this can account for your poor spark.

HTH

Mike

 

[05bluestang]

+ 1

Just remember, the lower the number the bigger the wire! I am going to venture a guess that #14 wire would significantly reduce your resistance to the coils and let a lot more current flow to them.

ALso, if any of your connectors to the COPs are corroded, this can account for your poor spark.

HTH

Mike

We checked all that, connectors look good. We canged the plugs and COP's, same shit.............

I'm gonna spray everything down with electrical cleaner this weekend just for shits and giggles but don't have high hopes.......

 

[RRRoamer]

I wonder if you increase the voltage too much to the stock coils if the insulation won't be able to keep the power contained and if it will create a short/arc inside the coil never reaching the plug.

That's not an issue for the most part. Increasing the voltage on the primary is absolutely TRIVIAL to the secondary voltage, so there is no way increased voltage on the primary side will cause insulation breakdown.

In extreme boosted cars with stock coils and upgraded primary voltage, it MIGHT be possible for the ionization voltage to get high enough that the secondary causes the insulation to breakdown before a spark is achieved. But you are going to be talking about very rare conditions, or possibly a defective coil pack.

 

[RRRoamer]

If your spark voltage is too low then I'd say there is a problem with your ECU (PCM).

I doubt it. It is VERY rare for one of these PCMs to "sort of" work. They are almost always working properly, VERY rarely dead as a door nail and even rarer, acting flaky. You have a better chance of winning the lottery.

If he has voltage issues, it is almost guaranteed to be in the wiring. All eight coil packs are powered from the same relay in the BEC. That one wire goes out and provides +12V (ok, it's closer to 14V with the car running) to each coil pack. The PCM has eight individual wires going out to each coil pack so it can switch each on at the right time, so the ground side can almost be ignored as the chance that all eight ground leads would have the same problem at the same time is EXTREMELY thin (aka: get some lottery tickets!)

The fact that he says sometimes it runs right and sometimes it doesn't makes me think he has a problem with the wiring between the first coil pack in the line and the relay in the BEC. It's probably at the connector to that relay, or possibly in the relay itself. But the PCM working right sometimes and flaky other times? No way in hell.

Also, from your other post, it looks like the KB product would increase spark energy...significantly! A 10X improvement in current would be a 100X increase in spark energy.

Yeah... That's called marketing. Normally, your car is sitting there with right at 14.0V on the bus. The BAS (per it's own specs) can boost that voltage to the coils up to 20V. Current I = V/R. We know the R doesn't change (this case might just be different, but the BAS has nothing to do with that...), so I is simply proportional to the voltage, aka: I = f(V). 20V is a 43% increase in voltage over the normal 14V, so you can expect current going through the coil (stead state) will increase by 43% also. Now, if you apply the normal Power = I^2/R or P = V^2/R to the new and improved current or voltage, you will find that the power in the coil will just double over stock at 14V.

That 10x number is marketing bull, but doubling the power in the coil is DEFINITELY nothing to laugh at. But all this does assume the BAS can not only generate the 20V from 14V (probably a DC-DC boost converter), but also generate enough current so the coil doesn't simply pull that "20V" back down to 14V. At this point, I have yet to see any proper tests of the BAS that show it can or can not do what it claims. Chevy Killer definitely has his experience, but as far as I know, he didn't actually test what was going on at the coil either.

Damn, debugging electrical issues in these cars can be a royal bitch...

 

[05bluestang]

Stupid question.......... BEC? What relay are you referring to? If that may be the problem, I'll change it just for shits and giggles as well.............

Edit: found this on line http://fordfuelinjection.com/?p=88 I think it's for the 04's but same principal .....right?

 

[RRRoamer]

BEC = Bussed Electrical Center. The relay I am referring to is pretty much the same as the one in your link. It is the PCM power relay 1. Here is a link with the service manual for our cars: http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=40&viewfile=Electronic%20Engine%20Controls%20-%204.6L.pdf

And it sure wouldn't hurt the swap out the relay. It never hurts to have a spare on hand anyway...

Oh, and don't forget that there is a 15 amp fuse between the relay and the coils as well. Check/swat it out as well.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

BEC = Bussed Electrical Center. The relay I am referring to is pretty much the same as the one in your link. It is the PCM power relay 1. Here is a link with the service manual for our cars: http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=40&viewfile=Electronic Engine Controls - 4.6L.pdf

And it sure wouldn't hurt the swap out the relay. It never hurts to have a spare on hand anyway...

Oh, and don't forget that there is a 15 amp fuse between the relay and the coils as well. Check/swat it out as well.

When I said ECU, I was also thinking of the relays that would drive those COPs too--something fucked with those 8 particular wires!

I also wonder if they're using fusable links anywhere; one of those friggin things can open partially and kill your current.

HTH

Mike