Lets Talk: SCCA and Poly Bushings

Whiskey11

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Whiskey, any updates on this?
I was about to start a new thread before I ran across this one (thanks Search). I have been following your autox thread but don't see the mention to this upgrade.

Well I bought a second pair of LCAs to put these in and got one set in but I havent started on the other and I havent drilled any holes in them. I am trying to figure out the best way to make the modifications. One thing I have noticed is that the metal sleeves are shorter than the poly so I have no idea if I can shave some of the poly to make them flush or not as I havent even attempted to mount them. Lots of thinking and planning to do yet.
 

Norm Peterson

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Pull the inner sleeves out and hold them up against the LCA brackets. Before you start grinding/sanding you want to know whether the inner sleeves are as wide as the insides of the brackets and the bushings are cut long - or if the bushings are a good length and the inner sleeves were actually cut short. If in fact the sleeves are short, add a washer or two.

The faces of those bushings appear to be flattish cones - that's a good thing.


Norm
 
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Whiskey11

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Pull the inner sleeves out and hold them up against the LCA brackets. Before you start grinding/sanding you want to know whether the inner sleeves are as wide as the insides of the brackets and the bushings are cut long - or if the bushings are a good length and the inner sleeves were actually cut short. If in fact the sleeves are short, add a washer or two.

The faces of those bushings appear to be flattish cones - that's a good thing.


Norm

That was the plan! ;) I will take some pictures tonight when I get off work.
 

Whiskey11

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That was the plan! ;) I will take some pictures tonight when I get off work.

I wasn't able to take any pictures because the car was still on the ground but the inner sleeves are indeed cut to the correct length to be pinched tightly so the actual poly bushing itself should probably be trimmed a bit. I'm not sure how that will work since the ends themselves rest against the metal sleeves so I can not take any off from the barrel and I'm afraid that if I cut enough off the ends to make them flush fit that there wont be any poly there to hold the "caps" on. I might be able to remove some from the side where the cap is permanent and not a separate part rather than from the separate side.
 

Whiskey11

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I wanted to bump this thread again because I have some ideas I want to bounce off those with more knowledge than I on this matter:

1.) I've measured everything up to make some modifications to these bushings. It turns out that the bushings are not as oversized as I thought, they just aren't fully seated the way I have them right now. They still are too tall for the sleeves by a a tenth of an inch or so installed. Without a proper clamp to clamp them fully I wont know how much is being compressed. Anyway, this rules out removing material from the bushing "caps" to make them the correct size because doing so would guarantee failure of the caps. I think I'll just run them at this size with the modifications planned.

Because of this, I'm not sure pinning and drilling only the top and bottom sections is going to be possible. I'm not even sure pinning will be possible with a grease zerk because of the way the control arm steel sleeves are in the arm and how it would prevent the zerk fitting from being accessible either while the arm is in the car or off it.

2.) The modifications are as follows: The bushing for the axle side of the UCA is 2.5" in width and the LCA does not sit centered in that bushing it sits off to the sides some. My plan for both the front and rear bushings is to drill 1/8" size holes (roughly 1/3rd the width of the bushing material) at 8 equidistant points around the bushing. On the short side of the rear bushing I will drill in a half inch and on the longer side I will drill in a full inch. This will give roughly 1" of solid bushing with which the LCA's can transmit their force which will sit "centered" where the arm is actually transmitting the forces with the remainder drilled to allow for freer movement.

On the chassis side, it's 2" in width and I will again drill 1/8" sized holes at 8 points around the bushing only it will be .4" of an inch on the short side and .6" on the long side. This again gives 1" of solid material centered around where the arm is actually applying the force and should still allow the bushing to articulate. Hopefully this will allow the bushing to articulate and hopefully give just enough to keep the bushing from splitting.

Hopefully that description is clear enough to understand what I'm trying to do. Does anyone see any concern with that or anything you'd change?
 

2013DIBGT

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I can't add much here other then to say it may make sense to heat the drill bit prior to attempting to drill the holes into the bushing material in an effort to try and prevent it from splitting as the bit passes thru.

Those bushings look rather unforgiving to anything short of a perfect straight line with the drill bit though.

I wonder if putting the bushings in the oven at some low and slow temp similar to one used to cook a pot roast for X period of time and then removing them to cool would permanently soften the Poly material stiffness enough to avoid needing to drill so many holes?

Or, maybe a safer method would be to Boil them in hot water, cool them, then boil them again, then cool...etc for a few cycles to see if they permanently soften
 

Whiskey11

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I can't add much here other then to say it may make sense to heat the drill bit prior to attempting to drill the holes into the bushing material in an effort to try and prevent it from splitting as the bit passes thru.

Those bushings look rather unforgiving to anything short of a perfect straight line with the drill bit though.

I wonder if putting the bushings in the oven at some low and slow temp similar to one used to cook a pot roast for X period of time and then removing them to cool would permanently soften the Poly material stiffness enough to avoid needing to drill so many holes?

Or, maybe a safer method would be to Boil them in hot water, cool them, then boil them again, then cool...etc for a few cycles to see if they permanently soften

One thing about Poly is that it "moves" out of it's own way pretty easily. I performed the modifications but have yet to install the arms on the car (I was under the car for 5 hours figuring out torque arm noises only to realize it's the fucking exhaust mid pipe hitting the mounting cross member :rant:) and one thing I noticed is that my 1/8" holes are not quite 1/8th inch because the poly gave slightly when the drill bit went in. I did my best to "hog" them out but you can only do so much. They look like they will be fine, no cracks or anything and the bushings went into the arms reasonably well.

Here is the HOW TO:

Necessary tools:
Propane or MAP Torch
Hammer (standard hammer is all you need, no need for a sledge)
1/8" drill bit
Cordless Drill
Dremel or other rotary tool with cut off disks, wire wheel (optional) and sanding wheel
Open air space (don't do this inside the garage, do it outside, you'll thank me!)
Patience (lots of it)
2x4 about a foot in length helps out.

Step 1: Buy used set of control arms from someone on your forum of choice, or buy new ones from Ford. I bought mine from a member on S197Forum for about $50 shipped for all 3 rear control arms. I didn't need the UCA but why the hell not? :)

Step 2: Burn the bushings out. If you have never worked with rubber bushings before, here is a huge tip, they DO NOT burn fast enough to truly burn them out. Instead of trying to light yourself on fire with the rubber burning, heat up the metal ring holding the rubber in place. On each end of the arm there is a half of the sleeve that has glue on it and a half that does not. Heat the side that has the glue, it'll be obvious since the "lip" on the one side of the bushing is not restrained.

Step 3: Continue to heat that metal sleeve... no seriously.

Step 4: Continue to continue to heat that metal sleeve... yes seriously continue.

Step 5: After about 5 minutes of heating that metal sleeve quickly put the control arm on the 2x4 and pound the metal sleeve in the center with the hammer until the bushing pops out of the arm. If it wont pop out with some good whacks, repeat step 2-4 again.

Step 6: Finish all the remaining bushings

Step 7: With the dremel with the cut off disk, clean up the inside of the metal sleeve until it is shiny silver. Do this with the "lips" as well. Get as much of the still intact rubber off as you can with the cut off disk and maybe see if a wire wheel will help remove it all. I didn't have one so I didn't use one.

Step 8: Use the sanding wheel to smooth the inside of the bushing bore and remove the ridges. It will look like this when done:


Step 9: Do this for the remaining 3 sleeves

Step 10: Step back and marvel at your masterful work:




Step 11: Test fit the bushings and ensure that they slide in and out of the arm easily. If they don't, go back to Step 7 and repeat until the bushings are firm to put in and take out but not so firm as to require a hammer. Repeat Step 7 if the when putting the metal sleeve in makes the bushings too tight.

Step 12: Draw on the bushings where you are going to drill. Leave space to the center bore as well as the out side edge of the bushing.

Step 13: Using the 1/8" drill bit, drill the 8 holes in the bushing taking care to ensure that there is roughly 1" of solid bushing material at the center of the arm. This equates to 1" of drilling on the tall side of the tall bushing and a half inch on the back side of that bushing and roughly .6" and .4" on the other side's shorter bushing. It's not as much as it looks so take your time! I drilled the caps first and used them as a "guide" and I left the bushings in the arms while drilling to remove the "compression factor" from the equation.





Step 14: Lube everything up and assemble the bushings. I put lube on the under side of the caps where they touch the outside of the metal sleeve as well as the inside of the sleeve bore since I'm 99% sure these bushings are going to rotate in the sleeve as much as they are going to rotate around the metal sleeve running through them. This is kind of a "poor" design on Prothane's part but what can you do? I suppose you could design your own and build your own! This is the more preferable route since it allows you to step the durometer of the poly as you get away from the super hard "center". Maybe someday when I have more free time I will do this with stuff from McMaster. We will see how these hold up to daily driven abuse.

Step 15: Marvel at your work then install on the car:






I can't stress the patience part enough during this install. If you think you've heated up the sleeve enough to break the glue free, continue to heat it up because chances are you haven't. This is probably the most painless way to get those things out of the arms so do yourself the favor and do it this way FIRST and you can't exactly overheat the sleeve to ruin it so you might as well er on the side of hotter than cooler.
 
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BMR Tech

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Whiskey.

A, please post some pictures.

B, please call me to discuss. If these bushings are of a higher durometer, I don't think this is going to work very well.

What you need to do - if you drill them, is at a minimum, fill the holes with something with something that features good adhesion properties, and has some "substance". Something like an epoxy/rtv type compound - that will help the bushing spring back to shape. This material will/should be much softer (pliable) than the poly.

I may be wrong, but typically the more air gap in a poly bushing like this type, the higher chances of "cold flow". When/if you distort the bushing past a certain point, it will start to take that shape on.....so you may fight a battle of the sleeves becoming loose in the bushings - constantly.

Give me a call, Id love to chat about this.
 

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Just saw your pics.

Do not install them as is, if the bushing width is wider than the sleeve. This will put preload into the bushing, that will be even worse in causing cold flow under load.

Keep in mind, these bushings are machined on the outside (see, lines) - I recommend popping them out and using a diamond tip bit on a lathe, and turning them down slightly.
 

Whiskey11

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Whiskey.

A, please post some pictures.

B, please call me to discuss. If these bushings are of a higher durometer, I don't think this is going to work very well.

What you need to do - if you drill them, is at a minimum, fill the holes with something with something that features good adhesion properties, and has some "substance". Something like an epoxy/rtv type compound - that will help the bushing spring back to shape. This material will/should be much softer (pliable) than the poly.

I may be wrong, but typically the more air gap in a poly bushing like this type, the higher chances of "cold flow". When/if you distort the bushing past a certain point, it will start to take that shape on.....so you may fight a battle of the sleeves becoming loose in the bushings - constantly.

Give me a call, Id love to chat about this.

Just saw your pics.

Do not install them as is, if the bushing width is wider than the sleeve. This will put preload into the bushing, that will be even worse in causing cold flow under load.

Keep in mind, these bushings are machined on the outside (see, lines) - I recommend popping them out and using a diamond tip bit on a lathe, and turning them down slightly.

I have no idea what the bushing durometer is (I like the appropriate instruments to test) but it is almost like a hard plastic so I wouldn't be surprised if it is 95 durometer Poly. Interesting about the cold flowing and I was unaware that poly did that. My biggest gripe with this kit is that it is solid and I'm more worried about the bushing splitting under use (see a certain other companies LCA's with split bushings) than I am about those holes causing the bushing to come loose with any cold flowing.

If I get a free moment tomorrow I'll give you a call. Maybe BMR can come up with a better alternative for those of us working around shitty class rules. I have half a mind to go play in SM locally and CP Nationally where I can do things the right way instead of this ghetto work around way.

As for the length of the sleeve, it is indeed the correct length to fit in the slots for the arms on the axle and chassis and the bushing is a touch wider. Maybe 2-3 thousandths of an inch. Enough to be noticeable but not a whole lot of "compression" going on. My only issue with turning down the bushings further is reducing the amount of material on the caps. I could turn the other side though, no idea how the "ears" would hold up to that abuse.
 

BMR Tech

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Gotcha. I cant tell very well by the pics, but....it does look to be minimal.

As for cracking VS cold-flowing....I can see your view on that. At the same time, though, if it is indeed a 95 durometer bushing - I wouldn't be surprised if the holes helped promote the cracking. The more a higher durometer bushing flexes, the more likely it is to cold flow AND crack. This is why I think you should inject something into the holes, that is much more pliable than the actual Poly; yet it will still enable articulation.

Try and call tomorrow if possible.
 

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So from what I am reading my entire build (FULL Whiteline Susp) is illegal for any beginner class?
 

Roadracer350

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If you did the LCAs and relocation brackets it is straight to SM/CP for you.

Well what class I that? Beginner or advanced? Yea I did the WHOLE suspension system from Whiteline, CDC agressive chin spoiler with custom front splitter, FR500S rear wing, brembos, 2 piece rotors, GT500 style wheels running 295s at all 4, 1 piece alum driveshaft, custom built BC coilovers etc
 

Whiskey11

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Well what class I that? Beginner or advanced? Yea I did the WHOLE suspension system from Whiteline, CDC agressive chin spoiler with custom front splitter, FR500S rear wing, brembos, 2 piece rotors, GT500 style wheels running 295s at all 4, 1 piece alum driveshaft, custom built BC coilovers etc

If that is all you did for mods than you are in street modified (SM) because of the rear wing. That is far from a beginner class, it is basically a catchall autocross class. The suspension rule literally says suspension is free so long as it uses factory pickup points and it defines suspension as anything that goes uo when driving over a bump with exception to the steering rack arms. Bumpsteer kits are a go though IIRC.

Is your car gutted too or does it have the factory interior? Also, seam welded FR500 chassis right? That may not be legal for anything but E-Modified because it has no licensable VIN. The only potential change to that might be some wording for SCCA World Challenge eligible cars. They do that for some amateur classes kn the lower prep levels but you are required to run in 100% that trim with no additional allowances. You would be better served picking up the rule book and reading it yourself.
 

Norm Peterson

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Well what class I that? Beginner or advanced? Yea I did the WHOLE suspension system from Whiteline, CDC agressive chin spoiler with custom front splitter, FR500S rear wing, brembos, 2 piece rotors, GT500 style wheels running 295s at all 4, 1 piece alum driveshaft, custom built BC coilovers etc
Except for local/regional classes specifically designated "Novice" and (nominally) Stock, there really aren't any "beginner classes".

You can see what's involved in either Street Touring or Street Prepared directly from Whiskey's and Terry Fair's builds, and those are the lightly prepared categories.

Originally, ST was more or less intended to attract novice drivers whose street cars were modified beyond SCCA's Stock legality but not up to SCCA Prepared. In some ways it was a parallel category to Street Prepared. Didn't take long for the new category to start attracting folks with a lot of experience and a willingness to mod to the limits of the ruleset.


The flip side to finding yourself having jumped into the deep end is that your learning curve tends to be steeper assuming that in the beginning you don't get discouraged but stick it out on the basis of having fun.


Norm
 

Roadracer350

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Well the FR chasis is seam welded but it is bent so until I have time to grind most of the welds out and fix it I am going to modify the 06 GT I have. Yes it will be gutted, caged and dropped on the ground just like the FR. Basicley an FR clone with full Whiteline suspension, slicks, full aero with a mild tune on the 4.6 shooting for around 400-425.
 

Whiskey11

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Except for local/regional classes specifically designated "Novice" and (nominally) Stock, there really aren't any "beginner classes".

You can see what's involved in either Street Touring or Street Prepared directly from Whiskey's and Terry Fair's builds, and those are the lightly prepared categories.

Originally, ST was more or less intended to attract novice drivers whose street cars were modified beyond SCCA's Stock legality but not up to SCCA Prepared. In some ways it was a parallel category to Street Prepared. Didn't take long for the new category to start attracting folks with a lot of experience and a willingness to mod to the limits of the ruleset.


The flip side to finding yourself having jumped into the deep end is that your learning curve tends to be steeper assuming that in the beginning you don't get discouraged but stick it out on the basis of having fun.


Norm

Hey Norm, what is your opinion (since you are here! :p) on the modifications to the bushings and the life span of the bushings?
 

csamsh

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Well the FR chasis is seam welded but it is bent so until I have time to grind most of the welds out and fix it I am going to modify the 06 GT I have. Yes it will be gutted, caged and dropped on the ground just like the FR. Basicley an FR clone with full Whiteline suspension, slicks, full aero with a mild tune on the 4.6 shooting for around 400-425.

slicks+wing=E mod, where the minimum weight is 1700#
1798.jpg
 

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