Need help trouble shooting! Stang is down!

[mattsimonton]

Hey guys,

Here are the symptoms

whining noise-Bearing grind? (goes with the rpm)
At running temp the whine turns into a grind
grind turns into a metallic tapping that follows rpm
power loss
P0345-Cam Pos Cir Er 2 DTC

If I turn the car off and restart it or let it cool and restart there is just the whine. Once back to temp it follows the same series of events above.
All info has pointed to the alternator and I had mine rebuilt. The guys replaced the clutch, stator and brushes (but I dont know if they replaced the bearings)

The car seems to run fine engine wise.

Once the rebuilt alternator was installed it shorted and blew through the fusible link which I replaced and had the alternator re-tested and it checked out fine (by the rebuilder but I witnessed the test first hand)
first 5 miles were perfect
next 5 I noticed the whine was back
next 5 power loss
got it back to the drive way and had hardly any power but the grinding and tapping were still there.

After the install there is no DTC (yet) but all symptoms are the same otherwise.

All other vitals check out good
Oil is clean
fluid (oil, water, intercooler, pwr steering) good

I pulled the belt off and free spun each pulley and noticed a metallic ticking coming from the ac clutch about once or twice per revolution. The ps pump was quiet as were all of the idler pulleys. I have not ran it with the belt off due to the car needing to be warm to exhibit the symptoms.

looking online there are some ideas that lead to the cam phaser. What would the symptoms be for one going bad? The only code thrown so far is p0345 (which led me to the alternator). It is not throwing any codes right now.
-The metallic knocking noise is a common symptom
-power loss could be associated with retarded timing
-no DTCs associated with retarded timing/failsafe mode/ or symptoms of a bad cam phaser
-I use Royal purple 5w30 during the summer and Pensoil 5w30 or 5w20 in the winter (depends how cold we get up here in Anchorage)
Ill track down my dyno papers and bill for my rebuild when I was down in Tx 3 years ago to see if they were replaced or not. if so, they would have 30 k on them if not it will be 43k all supercharged.

I play, but its spinning the tires every once in a while, never ran at the track.
Im pretty much on my own on this diagnosis, we dont have any shops with experience on boosted Stangs, and the dealer is notorious for ripping people off.

Im thinking it is still the alternator, but I want to run this by you guys too.

the car is KB 2.6 with a built 5.0 under it. 30k on the motor.

Thanks guys!
Matt

 

[MLC40]

Sounds like valve train to me, but since you have started it a couple of times start it one more time with the belt off. If the sound is still there time to pull the valve covers.

Good Luck

Hey guys,

Here are the symptoms

whining noise-Bearing grind? (goes with the rpm)
At running temp the whine turns into a grind
grind turns into a metallic tapping that follows rpm
power loss
P0345-Cam Pos Cir Er 2 DTC

If I turn the car off and restart it or let it cool and restart there is just the whine. Once back to temp it follows the same series of events above.
All info has pointed to the alternator and I had mine rebuilt. The guys replaced the clutch, stator and brushes (but I dont know if they replaced the bearings)

The car seems to run fine engine wise.

Once the rebuilt alternator was installed it shorted and blew through the fusible link which I replaced and had the alternator re-tested and it checked out fine (by the rebuilder but I witnessed the test first hand)
first 5 miles were perfect
next 5 I noticed the whine was back
next 5 power loss
got it back to the drive way and had hardly any power but the grinding and tapping were still there.

After the install there is no DTC (yet) but all symptoms are the same otherwise.

All other vitals check out good
Oil is clean
fluid (oil, water, intercooler, pwr steering) good

I pulled the belt off and free spun each pulley and noticed a metallic ticking coming from the ac clutch about once or twice per revolution. The ps pump was quiet as were all of the idler pulleys. I have not ran it with the belt off due to the car needing to be warm to exhibit the symptoms.

looking online there are some ideas that lead to the cam phaser. What would the symptoms be for one going bad? The only code thrown so far is p0345 (which led me to the alternator). It is not throwing any codes right now.
-The metallic knocking noise is a common symptom
-power loss could be associated with retarded timing
-no DTCs associated with retarded timing/failsafe mode/ or symptoms of a bad cam phaser
-I use Royal purple 5w30 during the summer and Pensoil 5w30 or 5w20 in the winter (depends how cold we get up here in Anchorage)
Ill track down my dyno papers and bill for my rebuild when I was down in Tx 3 years ago to see if they were replaced or not. if so, they would have 30 k on them if not it will be 43k all supercharged.

I play, but its spinning the tires every once in a while, never ran at the track.
Im pretty much on my own on this diagnosis, we dont have any shops with experience on boosted Stangs, and the dealer is notorious for ripping people off.

Im thinking it is still the alternator, but I want to run this by you guys too.

the car is KB 2.6 with a built 5.0 under it. 30k on the motor.

Thanks guys!
Matt

 

[mattsimonton]

will do man! If I have to resort to pulling the covers, the drivers side will be a breeze but have you ever pulled the passenger side with the blower still on(looking in your sig you have the same blower)? Looking at it, it looks like its tight but will clear if I pull the battery out.

Also, if the valve train were gone wouldnt it be there all the time? Not after the car is good and warmed up?

I ran the car without the belt and it runs quiet (as quiet as these motors are known for) I get the "normal" quick rattle at start up and goes away instantly when oil pressure is up. Thats only if I am parked on a hill over night and its cold out. Other than what the TSB states as "normal" she is normal without the belt. The only thing is that I cant run it long without the belt to let it warm up to be sure.


I think its time to start looking for another DD haha

Thanks
Matt

 

[frank s]

You can't narrow the source down with a stethoscope? It doesn't have to be the real thing: I have a bottle-jack handle that I use. Any hollow pipe will do: electrical conduit, porch flagpole section, something like that.

Nestle one end at your earhole, hold the other in contact with the component under suspicion, and listen to the magnified sound.

Be Very Very Careful when the engine is running.

Good luck!

 

[irishpwr46]

let it get up to temp and then run it without the belt.

 

[mattsimonton]

I havent fashioned anything up yet. I have some hose laying around that I will try out, if not Ill use a piece of pipe, thanks for the idea! Im taking a few days off this coming up week to see if I can get the problem at least diagnosed.

Thanks!
Matt

 

[mattsimonton]

update!

Ran the car with the belt to let it warm up and it replicated the symptoms. (chirp then tick) I pulled off the belt and the tick was still there. I notice the noise a little more prominent on the drivers side and I hear it clearer in the foot well. (I think due to the noisy valve train.

Ill be pulling the valve covers this weekend.

 

[mattsimonton]

Pulled the Valve cover on the drivers side and I noticed I have some deposit build up in there. It will wipe clean but its not what I wanted to see when cracking it open.

Things I noticed-
Low side of the timing chain was loose -the high side was tight. Is this normal or should both sided be tight?

I have vents on top of the valve covers to release pressure. I noticed that some of the kick back has made its way to the spark plug on the first 2 cylinders. (I have a catch that I will install to clear this problem up. It would be nice if all this situation was is a fouled plug... but I doubt it. This could be the reason for the misfire code along with the p0345 code when all this started.

All rockers/ cam looked good, everything in its place and score free!

Once I get things back together I will run some seafoam through the oil for a few miles and change it out a couple of times to clean out the deposits.

 

[dysan]

That looks horrible in there as far as sludge and whatnot. Something is definitely going on in there. I have used Mobil 1 oil in my car from the beginning, changing it 3-5k miles before I had the engine built and now 3k or less depending on how much racing I do.

Here's a picture of mine from this winter when I was changing out my valve springs and whatnot. My cam sprockets had around 115k miles on them in this picture.

 

[1lowtoy]

That picture looks rough. How many miles are on the engine and what kind of oil are you using?

 

[MLC40]

will do man! If I have to resort to pulling the covers, the drivers side will be a breeze but have you ever pulled the passenger side with the blower still on(looking in your sig you have the same blower)? Looking at it, it looks like its tight but will clear if I pull the battery out.

Also, if the valve train were gone wouldnt it be there all the time? Not after the car is good and warmed up?

I ran the car without the belt and it runs quiet (as quiet as these motors are known for) I get the "normal" quick rattle at start up and goes away instantly when oil pressure is up. Thats only if I am parked on a hill over night and its cold out. Other than what the TSB states as "normal" she is normal without the belt. The only thing is that I cant run it long without the belt to let it warm up to be sure.


I think its time to start looking for another DD haha

Thanks
Matt

Sorry for the late reply, you can get the passenger VC off with the KB on. You need to remove the battery and I removed the tray too.

 

[mattsimonton]

Yeah it's looking rough! I put less than 10 k a year on her up here due to the winter. I change the oil at the end of winter and end of our summer. The car sat for 7 months while I deployed and this started about a month after I got back. I'll be pulling the other cover tomorrow to look for damage.

I'd there a chemical or process I can do to clean this out? I heard of putting ATF in the oil for a couple of hours to help clean it out, same with seafoam.

 

[mattsimonton]

Oh and royal purple 5w30 Is what I use