New Engine....scored cylinder walls, need diagnosis help

[BruceH]

I didn't mean for that to sound like an attack. I was genuinely curious what you consider high boost.

Funny enough 25psi is what I told Diamond the engine will eventually see.

Wasn't taken that way, lol. I wanted to reiterate that I'm not any kind of expert, just giving an opinion that goes against most of the experts so anyone reading it should do their own research and reach their own conclusions.

 

[JeremyH]

You built your most recent motor right?

Bruce I understand what you are saying, but as far as my motor is concerned I was after building a real stout motor that could hold power, not necessarily a race motor per say. So I guess I'm not sure what I did to not be the best choice. I don't see what having SS rings would hurt. I guess in my case it was just a combination of things that caused it to fail, not necessarily the parts fault.

Whenever someone has trouble with break in or ring sealing it involves ss rings. What I wonder is why ss unless you are running a huge amount of boost? If you are running a huge amount of boost then you should probably oring the block, go with studs, race bearings, and plan to do a tear down every so often.

If you aren't going after a huge amount of boost then there isn't a reason for all the other parts imo. Don't need ss rings, don't need studs or oring, don't need race bearings, and don't need to do routine tear downs.

I think about this stuff differently than most do. I realize my thoughts aren't what all the experts advise. All too often it's made too complicated by well meaning people who think you are building a sbc that needs a whole bunch of crap because it's made with substandard parts and engineering from the get go. A mod motor uses some fairly good, high quality parts imo. They are designed and manufactured well.

Whenever you see a story of bad luck with motors it's usually the rods in a stock block or a high dollar, brand name, "race motor" that the owner buys or has built with the best of intentions.

I have the same thought, I built my motor for the street, lower compression which every one swears hurts power and drivability (I beg to differ) and had the gap set for a turbo setup and stepped up only in areas that were shown to have problems. I would never use ss rings for a street car personally, see too many issues over the years. Never seen someone have an issue with moly even at high boost on a street car. My motor doesn't consume any oil and has been beat on for years now. The work and assembly was done by roush yates machine shop though so I'm sure a quality builder is a piece of the puzzle.

 

[BruceH]

I have the same thought, I built my motor for the street, lower compression which every one swears hurts power and drivability (I beg to differ) and had the gap set for a turbo setup and stepped up only in areas that were shown to have problems. I would never use ss rings for a street car personally, see too many issues over the years. Never seen someone have an issue with moly even at high boost on a street car. My motor doesn't consume any oil and has been beat on for years now. The work and assembly was done by roush yates machine shop though so I'm sure a quality builder is a piece of the puzzle.

IIRC the mainstream thought was to go with 9:1 or so just a few years ago. Even now higher compression isn't all that accepted with boost. I can understand the reasoning because it works and has been proven to work very well. It's hard to argue with the success Ford has had with forced induction for daily drivers and warranted motors.

I see the ability of a mod motor to survive with a variety of setups as more reason that it just doesn't need all of the special attention the older generation of motors did to survive high horsepower applications.

I'd also say that our setups are pretty good examples. Lower compression or higher (I've done as much as 19psi with 10.76 compression) the motors have basic mods to handle the increased stress, mainly forged rods and pistons. That's mostly it too, rods and pistons with a stock crank is handling 700+rwhp and making it with 281 cubic inches. Just incredible.

On a side note who is going to push the stock crank highest, you or Josh? Lol.

It's just another example of how much variation the mod motor will accept and still work far better than the last generation of motors.

 

[BeachMonkey100]

Agreed Bruce. mine is sitting at 9.5:1 can't wait to see what it makes.

 

[JeremyH]

IIRC the mainstream thought was to go with 9:1 or so just a few years ago. Even now higher compression isn't all that accepted with boost. I can understand the reasoning because it works and has been proven to work very well. It's hard to argue with the success Ford has had with forced induction for daily drivers and warranted motors.

I see the ability of a mod motor to survive with a variety of setups as more reason that it just doesn't need all of the special attention the older generation of motors did to survive high horsepower applications.

I'd also say that our setups are pretty good examples. Lower compression or higher (I've done as much as 19psi with 10.76 compression) the motors have basic mods to handle the increased stress, mainly forged rods and pistons. That's mostly it too, rods and pistons with a stock crank is handling 700+rwhp and making it with 281 cubic inches. Just incredible.

On a side note who is going to push the stock crank highest, you or Josh? Lol.

It's just another example of how much variation the mod motor will accept and still work far better than the last generation of motors.

I think Josh is set on making a grand with it. I'm at that point where I don't need anymore power for a street car and don't really want anymore. The car drives amazing and that's a big part of it. I rarely have a good situation to use high boost on the street anyway. And as it sits now its fun to beat on at the track at 600-700rwhp. The twin kit is really geared for 800,900,1000rwhp +. So I may go back to smaller single turbo setup and make a low end torque monster again. The twins are fun though so may just leave it, who knows lol Overall I'm thrilled with my setup and how capable it is, 600rwhp+ at 10psi on a low compression 281 is pretty crazy.

 

[BruceH]

I think Josh is set on making a grand with it. I'm at that point where I don't need anymore power for a street car and don't really want anymore. The car drives amazing and that's a big part of it. I rarely have a good situation to use high boost on the street anyway. And as it sits now its fun to beat on at the track at 600-700rwhp. The twin kit is really geared for 800,900,1000rwhp +. So I may go back to smaller single turbo setup and make a low end torque monster again. The twins are fun though so may just leave it, who knows lol Overall I'm thrilled with my setup and how capable it is, 600rwhp+ at 10psi on a low compression 281 is pretty crazy.

Higher hp on the street gets old quick, I'm with you on that. You have one big advantage with the turbo in that you can dial boost up or down for different situations, even from the drivers seat.



Sorry again OP.

 

[tigerhonaker]

I think Josh is set on making a grand with it. I'm at that point where I don't need anymore power for a street car and don't really want anymore. The car drives amazing and that's a big part of it. I rarely have a good situation to use high boost on the street anyway. And as it sits now its fun to beat on at the track at 600-700rwhp. The twin kit is really geared for 800,900,1000rwhp +. So I may go back to smaller single turbo setup and make a low end torque monster again. The twins are fun though so may just leave it, who knows lol Overall I'm thrilled with my setup and how capable it is, 600rwhp+ at 10psi on a low compression 281 is pretty crazy.

What you say makes perfect sense for actually driving on the street.
Especially if one is running with street tires and not one of the drag radials.
I think I will be in the 600 Plus area RWHP when mine is completed.
I did get to drive it some before delivering it back up north this last time.
It sure seemed to be a hand full to me as you say.

You know what I luv about the twin turbo set-up best IMO.
It just looks so Bad-Ass when you open the hood !!!
Obviously it has all the power one wants but as I say to me it just also looks Killer.


Terry

 

[retfr8flyr]

I think Josh is set on making a grand with it. I'm at that point where I don't need anymore power for a street car and don't really want anymore. The car drives amazing and that's a big part of it. I rarely have a good situation to use high boost on the street anyway. And as it sits now its fun to beat on at the track at 600-700rwhp. The twin kit is really geared for 800,900,1000rwhp +. So I may go back to smaller single turbo setup and make a low end torque monster again. The twins are fun though so may just leave it, who knows lol Overall I'm thrilled with my setup and how capable it is, 600rwhp+ at 10psi on a low compression 281 is pretty crazy.

Higher hp on the street gets old quick, I'm with you on that. You have one big advantage with the turbo in that you can dial boost up or down for different situations, even from the drivers seat.



Sorry again OP.

What you say makes perfect sense for actually driving on the street.
Especially if one is running with street tires and not one of the drag radials.
I think I will be in the 600 Plus area RWHP when mine is completed.
I did get to drive it some before delivering it back up north this last time.
It sure seemed to be a hand full to me as you say.

You know what I luv about the twin turbo set-up best IMO.
It just looks so Bad-Ass when you open the hood !!!
Obviously it has all the power one wants but as I say to me it just also looks Killer.


Terry

I agree with all of you about the 600 hp. I think that is about the max to safely run in a street car and that is what I have mine tuned for. That is the beauty, to me, of a turbo setup. I can instantly change the boost, to pretty much whatever I want, with just the push of a button. I am also like Terry, I love the look when the hood it popped. That was one of the main reasons I went with my twin setup originally.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Not that the turbo had anything to do with your unfortunate incident (sorry BTW) - but just in general - if you rebuild in the future, please shy away from a big single turbo. Your forcing your motor to work just too hard. No amount of tuning (despite what the vendors will tell you) can adequately compensate for the lack of cubes sufficient for big turbos.

Big singles or twins work well with the cubes needed to spool them. Not tuning, but cubic inches - are the driving natural force behind making power quickly, efficiently, and effectively.

Effectively, I would not go above twin 67mm and that is on a STOUT engine. When I say 'stout', I'm talking about a complete billet race motor which the vast majority of the members here do not have since it's half the price of their car to have.

I think the mistake a lot of members make (myself included in the past) is to try to make a race car out of a street car. I am living proof this is not possible without deep pockets and a lot of rebuilds. You need to decide if you want your stang to be a race car OR a street car and build accordingly. If you want a street car, than you need to live in reality that dyno HP or real world HP are two different things and having about 600 RWP on a a street car should be your realistic and survivable goal for the car.

Just my

 

[tigerhonaker]

^^^^^





Terry

 

[ChevyKiller]

I just copied this from the other post I posted in but it's relevant here too IMO to be clear. I'm not saying you 'can't' run big power from a big single set-up - I'm just saying it involves other considerations…

The trouble is guys look at the guys like Vinny Barber, GT RO, Geostang, etc. and think a big turbo is the way to go cause these guys are on top of the ET leader boards, but ALL of these guys have built SEVERAL motors in their journey and their eventual motors were complete billet race motors.

Having a big turbo is great but in a low CI motor, the amount of force needed to spool it puts a tremendous strain and need on a motor that is quite frankly VERY EXPENSIVE to build. Every one of the guys I mentioned above will tell you the same. So many guys think a forged rotating assembly and some ARP studs and then are good to go but it takes so much more than that and even then - don't think you'll go through 2 seasons on the same motor…lol

Better to be safe and overbuild for what you want and then you have a bad ass car that lasts a couple YEARS of fun.

So if you want to make over 1000 rwhp, then you need to invest in a motor designed to handle 1600 rwhp. It will seem pricey but in the long run it will be far cheaper than replacing motors along the way. The last motor I had in the chevykiller before I sold it was completely bullet proof for me to run mid 8's all day long without the car breaking a sweat but it also cost me almost $20K. However, I had four (yes 4) motors before that one that were a lot cheaper but cost well over $20K collectively. If I had to do it all over again, I would have started with the end motor and tuned it for around 750 HP and kept a street car out of it with all the amenities. I would have been running in the high 9 sec range, but it would have been 10X better and more fun car.

 

[jodadejss06gt]

I understand what you are saying but in my mind, I wouldn't say a 76 is that big of a single? When I look at the top of the 3v board 1/4 mile board I see 10 single turbos in the top 20. Albeit some of those cars are running big bores, 1/2 of them are running stock stroke/displacement motors. I've already invested too much in the single 76 to shy away from it being my power adder.

I guess I don't understand what the tuning of the car can't adequately make my 76 work?

Also when you guys talk about needing to decide between a race car and a street car you do realize that my car hasn't even attempted to crack 600. I haven't even gotten to that stage. I understand now how much of a pain SS rings are and that I may not have needed them for my build as I doubt I'll ever push past 20lb. I just wanted to have the platform to make good power 800wheel, but I would only ever run between 600-700.

 

[PNR Welding]

Wrong post

 

[one eyed willy]

Mine is a single 67, has great street manners and when I turn up the boost I know it's in the 700 range. SS rings have worked out great for me, 2 years with no issues. I wouldn't hesitate to run SS again.

 

[jodadejss06gt]

At this point my setup will remain the same and the engine will be diasected and get a new block and same pistons with new rings or this block will go .030 with new pistons and rings.

 

[JoshK]

I wouldn't worry about the 76mm turbo Jason. Its been done time and time again without issues. I went with a 78 for my engine as you already read. I have a local guy running an 8894 on a 281 4v

 

[PNR Welding]

I understand what you are saying but in my mind, I wouldn't say a 76 is that big of a single? When I look at the top of the 3v board 1/4 mile board I see 10 single turbos in the top 20. Albeit some of those cars are running big bores, 1/2 of them are running stock stroke/displacement motors. I've already invested too much in the single 76 to shy away from it being my power adder.

I guess I don't understand what the tuning of the car can't adequately make my 76 work?

Also when you guys talk about needing to decide between a race car and a street car you do realize that my car hasn't even attempted to crack 600. I haven't even gotten to that stage. I understand now how much of a pain SS rings are and that I may not have needed them for my build as I doubt I'll ever push past 20lb. I just wanted to have the platform to make good power 800wheel, but I would only ever run between 600-700.

If concentrate more on the exhaust side of the turbo.

76mm is more than enough with proper sized exhaust wheel. 1200whp if done right.
I wish I went 76/87 instead of 80/87. 1.10ar t4
My car spools to 12psi on the transbrake in about 1 second


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[BeachMonkey100]

If concentrate more on the exhaust side of the turbo.

76mm is more than enough with proper sized exhaust wheel. 1200whp if done right.
I wish I went 76/87 instead of 80/87. 1.10ar t4
My car spools to 12psi on the transbrake in about 1 second


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Holy shit lol.

 

[05stroker]

What is this spool thing y'all speak of?

 

[JoshK]

Pertains to engines not on a stand.










Shots fired lol