New to carving. have some questions and a story.

[Cookiemonster]

So heres the back story. I spun my car out about a month after I got it. Humbled me and made it aparent I dont know **** about driving. Sure I could drive but i couldnt drive hard. It also made me realise that driving hard on the street was stupid.
so I saved up and bought a performance driving class. learned alooooot. However all it did was make me want to use these new skills on the street and I already knew that was a bad idea.
I got talking with a freind of mine and he pointed me in the direction of autocross. So far Iv done 2 events. The first one humbled me yet again. I knew the concepts and the ideas but hadnt enough seat time to really put it to the pavement. However by the end of the day my times were becoming consistant. Droped roughly 25 seconds off my first time and found out this car is semi competitive. The top time of the day was 62 seconds (c5 corvette with alot of mods and A6 Hoosiers) My best time of the day was 74 seconds (only mods at the time were CAI n Tune and some 340 tread wear khomo tires running on their last legs). heres the course from the vet that won

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCoVBkrnPXw​

My second time out wasnt quite as good even though I had new tires (nitto nt 555s, didnt perform as well as I had hoped). The course was much much MUCH more difficult (2 decreasing radius turns, 2 three cone slolams and a 5 cone slolam on a decreasing radius <- hated that, The back straight was huge for an autocross and it had off set gates down it (rather un nerving going 70 mph and having the back step out after each gate) The course was verry technical to say the least. The best run of the day was 72 seconds by the same guy in the vet. My best was 85 seconds (with the vet guy instructing me) heres the video of the vet guy for this course

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhom...eature=channel​

By the end of the day my times become semi consistant, however i know i can improve more with more seat time and better instruction so Im going to try and get into a scca driving class but it picked by a lottery.

Now my question is how do i combat the understeer of this car? Other than slowing down more what can i do to the cars suspension to help? Iv tried creating oversteer (and i can but it requires throwing the car into the corner rather agressivly) but id rather have a car thats neutral coming into the corner so i can choose what i want mid corner. Right now i cant do that and its frustrating when i hear the tires scrubing and i start to plow.

I belive the stock suspension is starting to limit me. So where do you guys advise me to go?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I'm a road course guy, not an autocrosser, but the principles of weight transferance and suspension operation are the same... Seat time is the key, and the the SCCA isn't going to do it for you, go to a NASA event, and sign up for HPDE-1. At that point, you're guaranteed an in-car instructor, serious classroom instruction, and a LOT of driving time. In the midwest and great-lakes regions, it's at least four 20-35 minute sessions per day... THAT will give you a whole new perspective on how to drive the car, and some practical experience with developing a line through different types of corners, and solid steering, accelerating, and braking techniques.

The Mustang, like virtually every production-chassis car on the planet, is purposely designed to understeer, since it's more stable, and in "normal" circumstances, easier to control for the church lady driving to sunday brunch. To start combating that problem, begin with the tires. The Nitto 555 is a great general purpose tire, that will last FOREVER (I had 30+ DAYS of track time on my set before they just wouldn't give any grip at all!), but they're not the choice for an event where you need grip RIGHT NOW. For that, look to the lower treadwear tires, like Nitto NT-01, Kumho Xs, Dunlop Star Spec, and of course, the Hoosier A6. Do NOT go to staggered tire sizes, keep them all the same, since what you're really focusing on is more front grip. After that, look at dampers and springs. BUt, I would wait on everything but tires until you get more seat time under your belt. Time spent driving the car hard, in a controlled environment, especially with instruction, will pay off 100x what any part you bolt on the car possibly can...

 

[Cookiemonster]

Dave, that was me talking to you on youtube. I just couldnt post on these forums because of some wack glitch (got taken car of today). I agree seat time is key, However understeer is verrrrrrrrry discouraging.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Ah! Gotcha! Yeah, I agree, but believe me, sticky rubber (matched) front and rear, and setting tire pressures properly goes a LONG way towards eliminating the scrub. That, and finding the line where you just don't have to turn as much!

Start setting tire pressures at around 34psi on all four corners. Take a tire-mark crayon, and make some blocks on side of the tire, right at the shoulder, then go out and drive. Come back in, take pressures to see what temp gain you're getting, and then note your driving impressions. Finally, take a look at the crayon marks, and see if you're rolling over onto the sidewalls. If you are, increase pressures on that axle, and repeat. Once you have no rollover, without excess pressure, you can start tuning by going up in 1lb increments to balance the chassis. This takes time, but it works. To work well, you need a consistent test course, consistent driving, and a buddy to take the pressures right away would be a help as well. I've found that I need to run the rears about 3lbs lower than the fronts to get the balance I want.

 

[Cookiemonster]

I had my tire pressures at 34 in the front and 32 in the rear. This was with the tires "warm". I didnt really mess much with it after that. I do however know i got the tires quite warm because at the end of the day they had a purple blueish haze around the edges..

Iv looked into hpde I just dont really want to mess with that yet. Doing autocross i can drive 10/10ths and not really worry about fucking up the car. No walls to hit and if i do mess up i dont have to pick 10 lbs of grass and dirt off the undercarage Maybe once im more confident in my driving and have a decent set of brakes and suspension to work with ill hed out to streets of willow or button willow. Till then I got my abandon airstrip and a slew of nationally ranked drivers to help me out.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I had my tire pressures at 34 in the front and 32 in the rear. This was with the tires "warm". I didnt really mess much with it after that. I do however know i got the tires quite warm because at the end of the day they had a purple blueish haze around the edges..

If you felt the tires start to get "greasy" and lose grip, you got them warm... That haze could be a bunch of things, better to take temps (reminds me to order a pyrometer...), pressures, and subjective "feel" analysis. It's actually fairly hard to get the tires hot under low-speed conditions, since the prime factor in temp rise is the compression of the rubber as the tire rolls. Autocross just doesn't roll the tires often enough to get the temps really up, hence the A6 compound compared to the R6.

Iv looked into hpde I just dont really want to mess with that yet. Doing autocross i can drive 10/10ths and not really worry about fucking up the car. No walls to hit and if i do mess up i dont have to pick 10 lbs of grass and dirt off the undercarriage

So what are you saying? The HPDE program should really be looked at as a supervised scholastic environment. In the HPDE-1 level, you're really only wanting to drive at 7/10ths, so that you can develop good habits, and work on getting your techniques together. HPDE-2 is for the point where you can accurately and consistently do self-analysis and correction of errors, and allows you to continue to refine those techniques in a low-pressure, low-stress environment, but without needing a coach in the car with you. HPDE-3 is where you step things up a notch (or twelve!!). It's a BIG jump from -2 to -3, and most go from being a dominating car in -2 to being a rolling chicane in -3. There are still strict passing rules in HPDE-3, but you have to be VERY comfortable making and giving passes before you get there. This is the time to pick up your speeds, and start pushing the envelope. HPDE-4 is the pinnacle of the HPDE program, with no required point-by for passing, and with no passing zones. Some of the exercises done in HPDE-4 can get interesting, such as not allowing passing EXCEPT between turn-in and apex. To get here, you need to be completely at home on the track, very aware of what/who is around you, and demonstrate excellent car control skills. After HPDE-4, you can apply for a Time Trials license, or go to Comp School and get a Competition (wheel-to-wheel) license. It all starts with the HPDE-1 level, though. This is where the fundamentals of those car control skills and situational awareness are developed and refined. With students in the HPDE-1 level, I would say that fewer than 5% wind up with an off-track experience with an instructor in the car, and of those 5%, far less than 1% of THEM wind up with any damage to their vehicles. We instructors have very good self-preservation skills, and the way the program is taught, we start with the fundamentals of performance driving, WAY before we allow the student to develop any "real" speed. HPDE-1 guys get into trouble when they start losing their focus and making mistakes, not because they're driving above their abilities. It's an incredibly controlled, safe, structured environment, and if you want to drive the car, it's a fantastic place to start. There are a lot of books out there on driving techniques, and they work very well for developing the basics, like seating position, hand position, as well as teaching the fundamental rules, like keeping both hands on the wheel at all times, BUT they fall apart when it comes to techniques and applications. There is no way, save experience, that you can really understand how a late-apex corner line works unless you get out there and do it properly. Once you do, the lightbulb goes off, and it's easy to tell if you got the corner right or not. The books (and internet) just can't teach your butt to feel the transition from entry-understeer, through neutral at apex, into exit-oversteer.

I always teach my students to approach each thing that we're working on the same way: small, incremental changes, and to assess the tactile and audible feedback from those changes. Granted, we start slow, but that's how you can concentrate on nailing a line or technique. My favorite phrase to explain the linear progression: "In slow, out fast: in fast, out backward." If you're screaming down the main straight, waiting for the last possible instant to slam on the brake, and then throw the car into the corner and mash the gas pedal, I will guarantee you a quick trip to the greenery, and possible body damage, because you WILL screw up somewhere along the way. IF, however, you start by learning the line, and get it down consistently, not worrying about speed, you'll suddenly find yourself going faster than you thought, just because the car is more settled all the way through. THEN you work on braking technique, and assessing braking zones. THEN you work on steering techniques, because now, with the additional speed you're carrying from nailing the line, AND nailing the braking, you're going to need to be smooth to keep the car stable. THEN you work on throttle techniques and vision techniques to tie it all together. At that point, you are driving considerably faster than you were at the beginning, much more safely, and in complete control of the car. Compared to the guy that just goes out there and drives, you will have started a little slower (I'll rein you in until you get the line down), but by the time you start to work on braking, you're a little faster than he is, and by the time you get to throttle techniques, you're whining about him holding you up all the time... And the sad thing is that generally, they don't understand WHY you're so much faster, and they can't hang with you if they try to follow you... And remember, you're STILL only running 7/10ths! The main point is that until you have demonstrated at least solid familiarity and some consistency with each of the items, it's pointless to move on to something more advanced, since they all build upon one another.

Maybe once im more confident in my driving and have a decent set of brakes and suspension to work with ill hed out to streets of willow or button willow. Till then I got my abandon airstrip and a slew of nationally ranked drivers to help me out.

Seriously, slap on some decent brake pads, flush the fluid, and come out to a NASA event. It'll pay dividends like you won't believe!

I could bore you with stories about coaching a Miata driver to the point where they were held up by Vipers and Ferraris, but I think you get my drift. There is NO prerequisite for HPDE-1 other than a willingness to learn, and a reasonably well-maintained vehicle. That's it. I only advocate brake pads and fluid for the Mustang crowd due to the car's weight. Last thing you want to do is get to the point where it's all starting to come together, and then you have to park the car because the Autozone pads are shot...

 

[Random Asshole]

Are you a paid NASA spokes person, dave? lol. j/k.

The one thing I can suggest if you are afraid of doing tracks, is that you don't push the car beyond YOUR limits. Tracks days are actually fairly safe. It's the mentality of the driver that makes all the difference. Don't go out there thinking you are mr. big dick and don't feel pressured to be fast because you are holding up other people. Just stay within your limits and you'll be fine. And STILL having just as much fun. I think 9 out of 10 crashes I saw were driver error. The other one was suspension component failure. Passing is only done on main straights at events that I've ran. AND it is a "mutual pass." (well, usually...) You wave the person by before he passes you. That way both of you are on the same page and nothing bad happens. It's not a big deal that someone has to follow you half track to get by. It's just a lap. There are plenty more where that came from.

Plus, the amount of experience you gain per dollar is actually really good compared to autocross. You are out there for a blink of an eye. How easy is it to adjust for previous mistakes between rounds? Not very, I bet. With lap after lap, you gain so much more knowledge about what your car can do all while developing your skills/learning the track.

 

[DusterRT]

Plus, the amount of experience you gain per dollar is actually really good compared to autocross.

My favorite justification for DE's versus auto-x! Taking consumables out of the equation since that will vary widely from person to person and car to car.

Open Track/Lapping Day:

Cost varies by club, but around here at least you are looking at $210-$240 for four 20 minute sessions, or 80 minutes total. That works out to $2.63-$3.00 per minute. Some clubs I've heard come in at under $200, and this summer I went to a larger event that had 30 minute sessions, that can brought it down to under $2 per minute. Oh, and don't forget that this includes full-time instruction, a box lunch and hours of bench racing and networking!


Autocross:

Again, varies by club, but the entry fee is a bargain at $25-45, right? From my experience, the average run time is all of 50 seconds, and you will get 4-5 of them. Your best case scenario there is $6.01 per minute, going all the way up to $13.50 per minute. Also, you'll have to hunt down people to ride along with you and give you pointers, plan on working the course and chasing cones a good chunk of the time when you're not driving...and don't forget your own lunch.

So, in conclusion, during these hard economic times, it only makes sense to be responsible and make the financially sound choice. Hit the road course!

 

[Cookiemonster]

Autocross:

Again, varies by club, but the entry fee is a bargain at $25-45, right? From my experience, the average run time is all of 50 seconds, and you will get 4-5 of them. Your best case scenario there is $6.01 per minute, going all the way up to $13.50 per minute. Also, you'll have to hunt down people to ride along with you and give you pointers, plan on working the course and chasing cones a good chunk of the time when you're not driving...and don't forget your own lunch.

Hmmm. I guess i found a good club to drive with. Its 60 dollers for the day and you have seen the courses we ran. Pretty long for an autocross i guess? You get 3 sets and 4 runs per set. so 12 runs where you drive and you can hop into any car (driver alowing). I think the last day out I must have been around that track 30-40 times. the person sponsering the event supplies breakfast and lunch.

I talked to the person seting up the race class. So far there are only 6 people signed up. Hopefully it stays small. They told me i should expect to be driving for around 3 hours. so thats 1.80 a minute!