*** Oil pump worth the upgrade along with lockouts. ***

[SherrodMustang]

Well, here lately I have been getting close to finshing getting the car back running. Just about finshed putting in the new Kenne Bell Mammoth and running the new fuel system. So it is getting close to starting her up and seeing what she will do on the dyno.

My question is oil pump and vct related! I have the Brenspeed B302 with Livernois heads and Comp 350 cams. When I had Brenspeed put the motor together I went with the Gt500 high volume oil pump and was recommend to keep the vct functional and not limit or lock them out.

Now I have been recommend (friends/members) that I should look into lockouts with amount of horsepower the car will be making. Not to mention I had one vct fail when I was at Brenspeed with less than 70 miles on the new motor that took out the cam on the drivers side. Was very lucky it didn't do more damage than that.

I have also been seeing tons of horror stories about the oil pumps in our cars failing. Now it has me worried that I run the stock gt500 oil pump and sure don't want it to fail and take my motor out with it.

So worth the upgrade right now for me before starting the motor and running the expected 800 plus HP on E85 and 25lb of boost? How real is the threat of the oil pump failing, even with the GT500 pumps, this car is not a DD? Also, lockout the vct or not? Which is the best to use? Required when running the Melling oil pump 10227?

Thanks for any help or insight you might have on this.

 

[1SickRedfire]

Make sure you get the Triangle Speed Shop billet gears....they are a must have for built motors on boost.

 

[SherrodMustang]

Make sure you get the Triangle Speed Shop billet gears....they are a must have for built motors on boost.

Yeah, seen them and have seen post on them. Are they a better bet than just replacing the whole pump with a new one with billet gears installed and a better case? Was really looking at the Melling pump and Livernois lockouts.

Just don't want any surprise with the car. Would hate to loose the motor because I cheap out on the pump or could have done something different.

 

[dysan]

Melling 10227 pump which has the hard anodized casing and billet gears paired with the lockouts would be the way to go.

 

[SherrodMustang]

Melling 10227 pump which has the hard anodized casing and billet gears paired with the lockouts would be the way to go.

That is what I keep getting told. Just wanted too see what people would say. I know there is alot people who would have some personal insight on this or experience. I have never seen a pump fail in person, but it seems pretty rampant on the forum.

 

[GrnBullitt08]

Melling 10227 pump which has the hard anodized casing and billet gears paired with the lockouts would be the way to go.

This^^

At your expected HP levels, the Melling Pump, TSS Billet Gears, and Lockouts would be a good upgrade

 

[dysan]

You could also look into timable cam gears since you're trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the beast. The only one I've heard decent things about is the Paschal ones but BBR just came out with a set as well.

 

[SherrodMustang]

On a side note to this, how hard is the install of the oil pump and lockout? Never installed one on a 3v or nothing or messed with the timing. Just hate to have to pay someone to do something that I could possibly do myself. Been qoute at around 19 hours of labor for the job, at some very high cost. $1900 in labor, hell, could almost buy another motor.

You could also look into timable cam gears since you're trying to squeeze as much as possible out of the beast. The only one I've heard decent things about is the Paschal ones but BBR just came out with a set as well.

Yeah, looked at the BBR ones. Has anybody used them on here? What was the verdict?

 

[dysan]

The oil pump was a pain for me since I did it with the the engine in the car. It's actually not the pump that's difficult but the damn bolts that hold the oil pickup tube to it since you can't drop the pan and you have minimal working room to remove and install one of the 2 bolts. It's doable with it in the car but a royal nuisance. Headers are still a worse job though .

Fortunately I was able to reach out to some friends for some reassurance on timing the engine back up(Rench, Againstallodds1 and Mike who is the mechanic at Tillman Speed). There's plenty of people on here who can and will help you out if you choose to do it and re-time the engine.

 

[SherrodMustang]

The oil pump was a pain for me since I did it with the the engine in the car. It's actually not the pump that's difficult but the damn bolts that hold the oil pickup tube to it since you can't drop the pan and you have minimal working room to remove and install one of the 2 bolts. It's doable with it in the car but a royal nuisance. Headers are still a worse job though .

Fortunately I was able to reach out to some friends for some reassurance on timing the engine back up(Rench, Againstallodds1 and Mike who is the mechanic at Tillman Speed). There's plenty of people on here who can and will help you out if you choose to do it and re-time the engine.

I might have to tackle it myself it is going to cost $1900 to do at the shop. I installed headers on my car myself in my driveway a few months back. Really didn't know what I got into untill I was out there doing it, should had taken to the shop with a few more tools than basic hand tools. Took me almost two days to get everything back together, some of those bolts were just crazy to reach.

Is there anything that would guide me in the right direction on timing the car. Know basically how it works and is setup. Just kinda scary when it comes to timing components and taking the timing chains off and putting everything back on and getting the car to run.

Need the modular 3v timing for dummies book..... LOL....

 

[stkjock]

high boost motor - billet is a MUST

This can happen with a stock GT500 gear:

I put in a TSS unit to replace the OEM when I the rebuilt motor done.

 

[SherrodMustang]

^^^^^ Good lord, did the motor survive?

I guess I had the mind set of the gt500 pump being stronger or something. I know gt500 make some ridiculous power and come with stock oil pumps.

 

[dysan]

^^^^That is what's called shattered dreams!!!!^^^^

As for the timing, print out the service manual that's on here....

Workshop Manuals-->Powertrain-->GROUP 03[Engine]-->ASSEMBLY-->Engine.pdf

http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=159

 

[SherrodMustang]

^^^^That is what's called shattered dreams!!!!^^^^

As for the timing, print out the service manual that's on here....

Workshop Manuals-->Powertrain-->GROUP 03[Engine]-->ASSEMBLY-->Engine.pdf

http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=159

Thanks for your help, any tips you might have?

Is it as easy as lining everything back up timing mark wise? I know once the motor turns over the marks on the chain end up being two links off or something I have read and seen on the forum. Does the cams have keys on them to set the sprocket in the correct position? As long as I don't move the crank and the cams it should all go back on the way it came off.

 

[Corpo]

That kind of power I would think cheap insurance with a melling oil pump. No brainer. And the timing isn't bad. It's all keyways and marks. No math. Unless you go with adjustable can sprokets. Then you will want to degree them. That might take some harder thinking.

 

[dysan]

I never took the gears off my cams when I replaced the valve springs, seals and retainers but I believe they are keyed.

The only tip I can give is get a set of ratcheting wrenches to use and take all of the bolts that hold the oil pan out and let the oil pan drop as far down as it can. Mine couldn't drop far due to the design of the Canton oil pan & baffle so I had to pull down on the front of it while doing it.

It would also be smart to have a flexible wand magnet for when you drop a bolt into the pan and have to get it out. I'm not 100% sure of the bolt size but 8mm comes to mind for the 2 oil pickup bolts.

EDIT:Also make sure the o-ring is on the pick up tube when you bolt it to the oil pump otherwise you'll get foaming of the oil due to a poor seal!

 

[SherrodMustang]

That kind of power I would think cheap insurance with a melling oil pump. No brainer. And the timing isn't bad. It's all keyways and marks. No math. Unless you go with adjustable can sprokets. Then you will want to degree them. That might take some harder thinking.

I agree with cheap insurance, I should had it installed when I got the motor done at Brenspeed. Stupid move now I think about, not going with the billet gears with the horsepower I was looking to make down the road.

That is pretty much what I thought with the timing componts. Aslong as I line everything back up the way it came off I should not have any problems. Just was not for sure if any special detail was payed to getting the cams in timing with the crank.

 

[Corpo]

hope this helps. If you have a extra set of hands I don't think you need to remove the tensioners. If you do remove them you will have to prime the oil system... Well wait a minute, your changing a oil pump. Might not hurt to prime the oil system anyway. Haha. And also if your engine has the 3v plastic tensioners they have a o-ring seal behind them that is easy to break. Be careful. But your built motor probably has the 2v steel tensioners.

 

[stkjock]

^^^^^ Good lord, did the motor survive?

I guess I had the mind set of the gt500 pump being stronger or something. I know gt500 make some ridiculous power and come with stock oil pumps.

no....... you can't tell from those bearings? the were seized to the crank, the one you see in the pic was chiseled off, the entire short block was junk.

 

[Pike2244]

I have a question; so I have read similar threads on oil pump catastrophes and most say that w/ built motors to use billet gears. My question is this, no way really puts a hp / tq number on the point at which gears are necessary... I am finishing up a build that will put down approx. 590rwhp, so are gears necessary or could I get away without???