Question About PCV System

RedFury

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I don't understand how this system works. It seems like it's possible for air to flow through the air filter, into the main inlet tube, through the small breather hose into the passenger side valve cover, through the crankcase, out the hose on the driver side valve cover, and into the intake behind the throttle body, where there is a vacuum. So there is a direct path from ambient to the intake valve, completely bypassing the throttle body. I don't see how the engine can maintain a vacuum at all with this flow path present. Can someone please correct my thinking here?
 

cekim

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I don't understand how this system works. It seems like it's possible for air to flow through the air filter, into the main inlet tube, through the small breather hose into the passenger side valve cover, through the crankcase, ......
I don't see how the engine can maintain a vacuum at all with this flow path present.
This is why the intake of the PCV system uses "metered" air. It takes it's air after the MAF because it is entirely possible for this air to get into the engine - so fuel must be added...

Generally speaking its a question of degrees - look at the size of the pass side hose vs that of the throttle body...

Also note that each rotation, the cylinders are capable of moving ~2.3L of air... Try to push 2.3L through that little hose in a short span of time and you should see why there is still a vacuum present...
 

gloryboy

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the air going into the pass side valve covered is metered (passes through the maf before entering the valvecover). It follows the route you stated and then enters the intake. The same amount of air going into the pass. side valvecover eventually enters the intake tract from the drivers side cover.
 

gloryboy

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This is why the intake of the PCV system uses "metered" air. It takes it's air after the MAF because it is entirely possible for this air to get into the engine - so fuel must be added...

Generally speaking its a question of degrees - look at the size of the pass side hose vs that of the throttle body...

Also note that each rotation, the cylinders are capable of moving ~2.3L of air... Try to push 2.3L through that little hose in a short span of time and you should see why there is still a vacuum present...

you beat me to it......
 

RedFury

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I understand that all the air is metered and accounted for. But regarding vacuum, the throttle is darn near closed at idle. My understanding is that the restriction imposed by the throttle is greater (more restrictive) than that of even the smallest diameter hose in the PCV system (~3/16"? ID of that breather hose). If those hoses were more restrictive than the throttle, then the throttle could never be used to control idle speed. But the throttle angle is obviously carefully controlled at idle to maintain engine speed (along with spark). I still don't see it :( It feels like the throttle body is short circuited.
 
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SoundGuyDave

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No hard data, but I would bet that the "intake" line for the PCV system is sized to provide around 80-85% of what the engine needs for warm idle speed, and the rest is controlled by the throttle body. Think of it as a fixed value idle-air control valve, essentially allowing the idle air to bypass the throttle body all together.

In the end, it is a fixed diameter, so there will be predictable flow rates at different engine loads and RPMs, so it's easily accounted for in the tune...
 

RedFury

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No hard data, but I would bet that the "intake" line for the PCV system is sized to provide around 80-85% of what the engine needs for warm idle speed, and the rest is controlled by the throttle body. Think of it as a fixed value idle-air control valve, essentially allowing the idle air to bypass the throttle body all together.

In the end, it is a fixed diameter, so there will be predictable flow rates at different engine loads and RPMs, so it's easily accounted for in the tune...
OK, let's say the PCV lines are carefully sized to provide much of the air (80%) required at idle, with the throttle blade providing the rest (20%). This means that if you change the diameters/lengths of those hoses, you could inadvertently alter your idle and partial throttle drivability.:shock: For example, if you made all the hoses 5/8" diameter, the throttle would now need to be almost closed, since almost all the air is coming in through the PCV lines. It may have more difficulty controlling that small amount of air. I haven't seen anything in the tune that addresses this issue directly. There are a couple tables though that map out load vs. throttle position, and airflow vs. RPM...

This is kind of a shock to me, that some tubes set the lower airflow limit for the engine. I always thought that the only air flow path from ambient to the intake valve was through the throttle body.:oops:
 
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SoundGuyDave

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As I said, I have no data to support my theory... Also, I don't know as though you'll see tables directly related to the idle with respect to hose size, I think that's simply handled by the throttle position. I would suspect that if the hose size (AND the inlet nipple on the valve cover, which is more important to the discussion anyway) were increased past the point where the throttle could control the idle speed, the computer would go into limp-home mode and/or stall. Again, all unsupported theory...

It would be interesting to datalog throttle-blade angle with and without the PCV system active...
 
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TexasBlownV8

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Some other points on this topic, as I've recently had to deal with pcv and such issues.
Take a little step back for a moment: look at the 2 main parts of the air intake system: the inlet [filter end] and the intake manifold itself.
- You have air coming in from your filter, and eventually all of it gets into the intake manifold.
- The MAF sensor measures the total amount of air coming in from the air filter; all that air somehow finds it way into the intake manifold, some of it via the throttle body, some of it through the pcv. As long as all the air entering the intake manifold is measured by the maf, it's not important where the air is coming from. [ignoring intake air temps for this dicussion.]
- At the intake, it will pull air from wherever it gets it from paths of least resistance and per air vacuum/pressure dynamics. An open throttle body allows more air at less airflow resistance, while the pcv allows some air flow but in a restricted manner.

The amount of vacuum produced through the intake manifold is proportional to how hard it has to 'pull' or suck to get air into the engine.
With a closed throttle body, the vacuum will be at its highest, and that's when the greatest pull (suction) occurs on vacuum lines, incuding through the pcv valve and hoses. At this stage, some air will flow through the thorttle body, and some through the hoses into and through the crankcase; all going into the intake manifold.

As engine speed increases, the vacuum produced by the intake manifold drops, as the opening of the throttle blade makes it easier to get air in. More air is then flowing through the throttle body, less through the pcv.

At WOT, the throttle is wide open of course. Vacuum is at its least here, or not present at all. The PCV closes and no air gets pulled through its vacuum and all air comes through the throttle body.

But, for all three scenarios, ALL the air going into the intake manifold has been measured by the MAF sensor, so the computer knows what air should be there.


Now, if youy have a vacuum leak, even a very small one, it will affect the amount of air entering the engine vs. what the maf has measured. Some experimenting I did with my V6, even with like a 1/8 vacuum hose, it affected the air/fuel trim adjustments made by the computer by about 10% at idle; there was enough unmetered air coming in (and not measured by the maf) to throw off the actual air used, and as the closed-loop O2 sensor systems are designed, the computer compensated for the exrta ait by adding 10% more fuel, at idle.


Besides all the above, when you have forced induction, it can become tricky and even more important to make sure that all the air is metered. The location of the MAF is then very important when it comes to breather hoses, etc., to make sure all air gets measured. (This was a real challenge in my supercharged blow-through setup, BTW.)
And with boost, you also have to be more aware of crankcase pressure that will arise when under WOT, and how that pressure is vented/releived. THe PCV 'should' be closed under boost, and so that port on the valve cover should not allow any air to go in nor out of the engine. Typically, the breather hose from the air intake provided the releif for pressure under WOT.

Hope this helps.
 
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GT John

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The PCV system on these cars works like this:

The hose going from the intake (after the MAFS) to the passenger side valve cover is the crankcase fresh air intake. This intake air is metered by the MAFS.

During idle and low load conditions and deceleration a vacuum is created in the intake, this vacuum sucks contaminated air and oil vapor from the drivers side PCV through a hose that goes to the intake after the throttle body. This contaminated air and oil vapor is being sucked in through the intake, onto the intake valves and finally into the combustion chamber where it is mixed with fuel and burned. (bad idea if your concerned about performance)

The passenger side fresh air intake is multi purpose. Since there is little to no vacuum at WOT there is the possibility that pressure could build up in the crankcase, if so, the passenger side fresh air intake now becomes a relief for the crankcase. Any contaminated air will be directed through this hose to be dumped into the intake and finally burned.

The 2nd purpose of the passenger side hose to the intake is a fail safe in the event that the PCV should fail. (stay close).

On my car I use a Stefs oil/air separator between the PCV and intake. The passenger side has a breather on it. My car has be tuned to use this setup.

Hope all of this helps.
 

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