S197 Chassis Stiffening Needed?

[Sleeper_08]

Seriously? I take it you don't track your car much?

I think most of us in this subforum have put the hurt on plenty of those european cars every time we hit the track.

And doing it is so much fun!

In a lot of cases however I think it might be due to the old adage - "just because you can write the cheque doesn't mean you can drive the car".

I'm not even that fast. At Mosport my brother drives my car once a year and his best laps are always 5 seconds faster then my best laps

 

[pcdrj]

Dean Martin built by car for SCCA Touring 3 and there was absolutly no need for any kind of stiffener. We did put in a plate on each side about 1/2 way between the wheels for jacking, but that is it. My car is a track only race car and in my class there are only two American cars. The 2011/12 Mustang V6 and the Cobalt SS. The rest are European and Japanese. In the rain at the Runoffs due to a problem on the grid I ended up starting last out of 18 and spotted the field a 30 second lead and finished 10th.

Cheyne

And don't forget Paul Brown of Tiger Racing winning World Challenge.

One thing that can use better bracing is the drive line, especially in high torque setups. I've had missed shifts due to drive line twist under heavy loads. A good example of this is coming out of the bowl at NJMP Lightning course. The chassis is well loaded on exit and under full throttle. When I was using softer motor mounts the the drive train would not unwind and I found reverse instead of 5th. Griggs uses an aluminum plate that ties the trans bell housing to the k-member. It does increase NVH and can be used without the trans connection but for serious tack application it helps.

 

[Downs]

Glad I read this thread lol. First thing I usually do to a car is chassis stiffening and suspension upgrades. Guess I can forgo the chassis stiffening and put that money towards a good suspension upgrade kit.

 

[kevinatfms]

i originally had them to brace my control arm mounting points but found no real benefit. i tried to tweak the chassis enough to measure at the b pillars and found no chassis adjustment necessary. the only thing i found them useful for was for jacking rails as stated before.
i would look into the x brace before i put on another set of subframe connectors but at this time they are quite a bit of money and i dont have my normal connection to get one off a race program. if i do come by one i will def be installing it, if not i may come up with my own solution.

also about the torsional rigidity of euro cars to the american counterpart? some cars are designed with slight chassis flex to account for suspension variances from the factory. so the total stiffness for a full track car may account first, the average road car manufacturer will not put that to the forefront. BMW and Ford both have reasons why each car is structurally rigid from the factory to a certain extent. is one better than the other, no, due to the fact each chassis is "tuned" to account for other variances(weight, spring rate, shock dampening force, vertical loads) which can effect driver comfort. the bean counters will also come in with the "a few pennies" line and scratch certain pieces which have been found on pre-production and not post production vehicles.

 

[kevinatfms]

And doing it is so much fun!

In a lot of cases however I think it might be due to the old adage - "just because you can write the cheque doesn't mean you can drive the car".

I'm not even that fast. At Mosport my brother drives my car once a year and his best laps are always 5 seconds faster then my best laps

i know what you mean. went to an auto-x with a buddy and he scrubbed a tire to hard and lost the bead so i allowed him to re-enter using my car and he ended up winning the class. he was .5 quicker than the 2nd place contender and over a sec quicker than me with no changes besides a loose nut in the driver seat.

 

[Liftedbronco]

??? Boss Mustang out of the box outperforms an M3, 911, and several other euro plates on the track. Although the S197 is heavy it can be made to perform as well or better as anything with similar power to weight solid axle and all. I'm sure you're familiar with the following comparison. Keep in mind it's not even a Boss.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...ang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/viewall.html

Maybe i just watch too much top gear, but im a firm believer that my mustang will be outhandled by the M3 (or whatever) next to me no question. Its a totally different car. How could it not? But anyway, thats an off topic debate. Im not bashing. Im glad to see how competative mustangs are on the track.

 

[pcdrj]

Maybe i just watch too much top gear, but im a firm believer that my mustang will be outhandled by the M3 (or whatever) next to me no question. Its a totally different car. How could it not? But anyway, thats an off topic debate. Im not bashing. Im glad to see how competative mustangs are on the track.

Top Gear is a great show even though Clarkson hates American cars. His jabs are always entertaining. He absolutely hates SRA and Ford will likely eventually go in that direction but not with a car they expect to see widely used in drag racing. For discussion sake look at a 911. They are not well balanced and will bite anyone who doesn't learn that quickly. It's an antiquated design that has hung on mainly because of it's heritage but can be made to handle well, just like your Mustang.

I am not a great driver but can outrun most well driven GT3's at the track because my car is that much better.

The OP asked about chassis stiffening which is probably the strongest aspect of this car therefore would be the last place you tweak. Shocks, springs, anti roll bars, camber, tires will all do much more to help you outrun those German brands but you won't likely see it on TG.

 

[Liftedbronco]

Sorry OP for getting us a little off topic.

PCD - well put, thank you.

 

[Sleeper_08]

i know what you mean. went to an auto-x with a buddy and he scrubbed a tire to hard and lost the bead so i allowed him to re-enter using my car and he ended up winning the class. he was .5 quicker than the 2nd place contender and over a sec quicker than me with no changes besides a loose nut in the driver seat.

I'm a firm believer that the best investment anyone can make towards getting their car to go faster is in driver training by an instructor who knows what their doing.

For me the second best investment was a data logger. By comparing my data to my brother's I was able to determine how fast I could go into a corner and still come out of it. It also saved a lot of brake wear.

By the way my brother is the co-chief instructor for the local Porsche club and has over 10,000 laps at Mosport so he does know his way around. He is driving my car at the start of this video. He started at the front of the grid and passed everything within the 30 minute session. He was having way too much fun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJcgO8ZN_ks&list=UUSuWJSMf5EfHM0Z7bmF4MSw&index=1&feature=plcp

 

[Chim-Chim]

...We did put in a plate on each side about 1/2 way between the wheels for jacking, but that is it....

Cheyne

Cheyne, do you have any pics of this? My pinch weld on both sides is starting to show signs of abuse and jacking rails (or a few jacking plates) have been on my "to do" list for a while.

 

[Liftedbronco]

how bout some air jacks?!

 

[Chim-Chim]

how bout some air jacks?!

I wish! Too much coin for something that would be a pure luxury item.

 

[DRock]

Maybe i just watch too much top gear, but im a firm believer that my mustang will be outhandled by the M3 (or whatever) next to me no question. Its a totally different car. How could it not? But anyway, thats an off topic debate. Im not bashing. Im glad to see how competative mustangs are on the track.

You would be very surprised to see how well some of us put up a fight out on the road corse. It's very entertaining to say the least

 

[pcdrj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFDgVlHj_j4

This just popped up on my facebook. He's running about a 2:14 at VIR full in a 400 hp, 1300 pound "car". Granted the temps were pretty cold but for comparison, I ran a 2:12 on the same course which was still slower than a FR500 and AIX car last month.

I love my solid rear axle American dinosaur. Take that Jeremy Clarkson.

 

[vbluep51]

That Ariel has slicks, just wanted to point that out.

 

[Chim-Chim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFDgVlHj_j4

This just popped up on my facebook. He's running about a 2:14 at VIR full in a 400 hp, 1300 pound "car". Granted the temps were pretty cold but for comparison, I ran a 2:12 on the same course which was still slower than a FR500 and AIX car last month.

I love my solid rear axle American dinosaur. Take that Jeremy Clarkson.

2:12 at VIR is fast! Are you NA?

 

[pcdrj]

2:12 at VIR is fast! Are you NA?

Saleen supercharged at 9.5 PSI (about 450 rwhp). Car is capable of sub 2:10. Look at how much speed I scrub off at the upper esses and roller coaster.

 

[Cheyne]

I will have some pictures taken.

In the SCCA Touring 2 class National Championships last year the race was won by a Evo, but only after it went from a dry to wet race. Before the rain hit the Mustang GT 5.0 had a 30 second lead. The BMW M3's, mostly E46 M3's and a couple of E92's, didn't have anything for the Mustang. This year the Mustang had 150 pounds and a smaller intake restrictor put on them and down at Sebring for the first race of the year the Mustang sat on pole, but was beaten by a 911. At the Championships the fast lap at Road America was a 2:27 and the fast BMW was a 2:30. The two 911's in the class both ran 2:29's and the Nissan 370z ran a 2:28. I don't know for sure, but I would be willing to bet a good sum that the Mustang was sandbagging while running those times. For what is worth my Mustang V6 (2011) ran a 2:35 on the same track, but with a different driver. The M3's have me under braking and handling, but in a straight line they can't pull away from me unless I lift. We are in different classes so I would normally let them by and then draft. The M3's were almost 200 pounds lighter than my car.

Cheyne

 

[908ssp]

Hey Cheyne does your car have a roll cage? You do know that a roll cage is the most efficient way of stiffening a cars chassis. A roll cage can double or triple the chassis stiffness far far more than anything else you can do under the car or to the car on any car.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

You would be amazed at how many S197 owners purchase SFC's specifically to have convenient jacking points.

+1 subframe connectors and frame joints welded for additional rigidity. The comments about the S197 frame being 'great' out of the box is relative to the older generations, but still room for improvement. In racing - there are either spec configurations or 'points' assessed for certain modifications that must be managed to keep your car within a certain class, which makes this mod less of a priority compared to others, e.g., suspension, etc. For those of us not racing (HPDE) or worrying about class specifications, it's a good mod. Mike