Shock and strut question

[kcbrown]

Bilstein is a unique problem, for sure. On their shock kits, to be "competitive with the internet" I'm supposed to make a living, pay my employees, pay the overhead and keep the lights on, do testing in the shop and on the track, prove the parts we sell in competition, answer customer questions 24/7... for 5% margin on an $800 sale. That's $40 profit, which is often lost in shipping. How? We don't just drop-ship Bilstein direct to the end user like everyone else, we pay to ship the shocks here so we can assemble our Bilstein shock kits (springs + top mounts) in-house to verify everything is correct and to save the end user time and hassles And since it usually costs me $50 to ship a set of shocks here, I'd lose $10 on that $800 sale... its a farce.

Competition is rough. But you're an honest to God shop that does all sorts of work, plus you have a nice, diversified product line that includes your own parts. I suspect you're going to do all right.

It is impossible for real shops to make a living selling Other People's Parts (OPP). I know most of you don't care - you just want the best deal - but that's the reality of the situation. These "bunny slipper" online sellers are killing the automotive aftermarket. Eventually there will be no more Sam Stranos or Vorshlags to advise, help, consult, post pictures, do testing, or make new combinations of Other People's Parts. You'll just have TireRack - the WalMart of automotive parts - and Amazon to choose from.

Well, no. Firstly, you design and sell your own parts. Secondly, you run a real shop. And finally, you sell more than just those parts that everyone else sells. Like I said, I think you'll be all right.


And believe it or not, there do exist people who value solid advice and excellent after-the-sale service enough to buy from those who give it, even though the prices are higher. Probably enough to keep people like you and Sam afloat, even.

Phil has to admit, I shared some good tech in that post (that took me 30 minutes to put together). But one perceived slight and Mr Thinskin goes off and he now likely HATES me for LIFE. I see this all the time... if I don't candy coat the hell out of everything I post, coddle every customer, I'm branded a total A-HOLE. It sucks...

Eh. It's your choice how to present things. You don't have to sugar coat anything. You could get away with simply presenting the facts without injecting any personal opinion, etc. But that's not your style.

Frankly, I like your style. It makes for rousing good conversation. But then, I strongly prefer someone give it to me straight up, personal opinions and all, than for them to pussyfoot around. Maybe I'm weird that way, but I cut my teeth on Usenet back when there were real flame wars and no moderators.

So you'll just have to deal with the consequences of how you present things. But you should know that not everyone has a problem with it. Keep it up.

 

[modernbeat]

Terry didn't mention that we test all the springs that were available to us from Bilstein when we put the StreetPro kit together. There were two different sets for the S197. One set barely made the cut (the light blue springs), and the other set did not (the black springs).

Later on, Bilstein dropped the good set of springs and kept the bad set. Those are the springs they now offer with the B12 kit. And we don't offer them because they are not well balanced for the car. The Ford Racing K and P springs turned out the best for balance. I remember that there was a Steeda spring that has better rates, but it lowers the car too much to be used with even the shortest of the Bilstein struts.

I'm not at work today, or I'd post the spring rating charts. You can most likely find them in one of my older posts, as we share that data when we measure it so you can verify and compare what we do to what others offer. I urge everyone to educate themselves so they can intelligently make choices that will give them the best benefits towards their goals without causing too many compromises. One of the resources I often point our customers to is the book "Think Fast" by Neil Roberts. Neil discusses attacking the items with the most reward when you have limited resources (money, time, test days), and getting the best bang for the buck without crippling your efforts.

 

[Boone]

Whoa!!! That's ALMOST an apology from Terry. He's getting a little soft as he ages. I get the negativity when you see where it's coming from. Anyone in sales goes through the same issues when competing with the big box stores and "no overhead and no service" internet sites. It doesn't amount to a free pass, but it does explain the "glass half empty" approach.

Phil, I admit that I thought you were 17, not 18. I assumed the 1098 in your user name corresponded with your birth date. So I guess I'm sorry as well.

Now, for something that may be helpful to the OP... My car is set up for street and track with coilovers and CCPs. When I had my alignment done, I set the car up for street use and marked the location on the CCP with a paint marker. I then marked them for max camber (2 1/16 degrees negative is all I can get). I can adjust my camber in my garage by lining up the paint marks before hitting the track or autoX in no time. This may help you get off the fence on the CCPs, if you ever think you may want to drive your car in anger and prolong the life of your tires while doing it.

Have a good weekend.

 

[Phil1098]

Phil, I admit that I thought you were 17, not 18. I assumed the 1098 in your user name corresponded with your birth date. So I guess I'm sorry as well.

That's OK, it is an old tie I had with Ducati motorcycles. I had a 1098 along with a 998, the original 1995 916, and several others. I was a super moderator on the Ducati forum and actually have a letter from the CEO of Ducati North America thanking me for helping to make the launch of the 1098 a success. I don't ride any more, but used to do a ton of track days. Now I just tinker with my ten year old Mustang.

 

[Phil1098]

Well look, I've made another new lifetime fan! All it took was one perceived slight in a giant post full of helpful tech. Come on Phil, lighten up. At 56 you don't want to be lumped in with the "I need a safe space", easily ruffled Millennial crowd. At our age we are supposed to make fun of those easily offended people!

Terry, I do appreciate all the info, I don't hate you or anyone else, life is too short to be miserable. As far as calling it the way it is, I coined a phrase years ago that I use all the time, "It doesn't matter how much sugar you put on a turd, it's never a gum drop." The ONLY thing that put me off was that you felt sure I was buying from some idiot on eBay and not a reputable dealer. My comment about going elsewhere was also just matter of fact, when a business pisses off customers they usually lose them. I didn't say I won't buy from you, I genuinely appreciate all the solid info. I sell for a living, I'm not thin skinned, I also don't take shit off people either. I applaud type A personalities, God knows I'm one too.

 

[Phil1098]

Terry didn't mention that we test all the springs that were available to us from Bilstein when we put the StreetPro kit together. There were two different sets for the S197. One set barely made the cut (the light blue springs), and the other set did not (the black springs).

Later on, Bilstein dropped the good set of springs and kept the bad set. Those are the springs they now offer with the B12 kit. And we don't offer them because they are not well balanced for the car. The Ford Racing K and P springs turned out the best for balance. I remember that there was a Steeda spring that has better rates, but it lowers the car too much to be used with even the shortest of the Bilstein struts.

Thank you VERY much, this is really good info. You are 100% correct in that the kit does come with the black springs. With your input, that will put me off of that. I assumed that since Bilstein packaged it up it would be pretty well balanced, turns out it's not. I'm still leaning towards the P springs as I really don't want the car lowered too much. Thanks again.

 

[ExSRT8Guy]

I always read Terry's replies because I usually learn something. Most of his offerings are way more serious than what I need, but you never know... I've always appreciated Sam's input, as well.

Being self-employed, I want to give Terry a thumbs-up on his pricing rationale. There's always someone cheaper. I try to make it a point to give my business to the outfits that do R&D.

Phil - I'm 56, as well. I think you'd be really pleased with my setup that I detailed earlier, though maybe with Bilsteins sub'd for the Tokicos.

An aside - DNA was a client of mine; they're 5 minutes away. You would think that a motorcycle brand of that caliber would have a large, sophisticated NA operation, but it's anything but. <50 employees, working for the love of the brand, on a shoestring budget. Props to you for your involvement!

 

[mustang_604]

Well look, I've made another new lifetime fan! All it took was one perceived slight in a giant post full of helpful tech. Come on Phil, lighten up. At 56 you don't want to be lumped in with the "I need a safe space", easily ruffled Millennial crowd. At our age we are supposed to make fun of those easily offended people!

Look, we get a lot of tire kickers and broke kids that ask us a ton of questions, some wanting detailed estimates, and often we spend an hour or more on the phone working with them. A typical MCS coilover sale takes 2-3 hours of consultation, via email and/or phone. But we take pride in helping people chose the right suspension/camber plate/wheel/brakes/seat/etc that fits their needs. We ask lots of questions about what their goals are, where/how they drive, if they run in competition, street/track percentages, and how long they have been doing this sport or that. We are also often talking people out of higher end parts (ie: making less profit) if it doesn't fit their needs. We don't beat them over the head with how many trophies we've won, but instead we listen and try to guide folks. It takes time and effort.

Often some percentage of these folks take that knowledge and then they go buy the parts we have recommended from TireRack or eBay or Amazon, to save a buck. Sometimes they literally only save ONE dollar, but that's enough for some people to "go cheap". And often they still call us for tech support after they bought elsewhere - during the install, for tuning help, etc - and are RUDE and INCREDULOUS when we ask them where they bought the parts. "Why does it matter???"

Its frustrating as hell. But nobody seems to care - its the Amazon-ificaiton of our world. I want it CHEAP and I want it NOW! That's not exactly what happened here - Phil just wanted affirmation on the shocks he wants to buy. Maybe I took a cheap shot at where he wanted to buy them, oh well. Whoever is selling those shocks and springs for $800 is making ZERO profit on the sale, I know that much.

It just makes me a little crazy when I see folks here - where Jason, Jon and I spend lots of time sharing tech and answering questions - buying things we sell from the absolute cheapest places, usually eBay or the like. Bilstein is one of the few brands we sell that has ZERO pricing policies, and they will let ANYONE WITH A PULSE sell their products at whatever prices they want. I often go to these "awesome deal" links and look up the parts, calculate the costs, and realize... these places often make less than 5% on selling some products. We've contemplated dropping Bilstein SO many times, but they do make some great monotube dampers and selling these "no profit" parts gives us access to their motorsport catalog, where we can custom build things like this.

Bilstein is a unique problem, for sure. On their shock kits, to be "competitive with the internet" I'm supposed to make a living, pay my employees, pay the overhead and keep the lights on, do testing in the shop and on the track, prove the parts we sell in competition, answer customer questions 24/7... for 5% margin on an $800 sale. That's $40 profit, which is often lost in shipping. How? We don't just drop-ship Bilstein direct to the end user like everyone else, we pay to ship the shocks here so we can assemble our Bilstein shock kits (springs + top mounts) in-house to verify everything is correct and to save the end user time and hassles And since it usually costs me $50 to ship a set of shocks here, I'd lose $10 on that $800 sale... its a farce.

Yet some kid working out of his mom's basement selling parts on an a website "while working in his bunny slippers" can do those painless, drop-ship sales and get by on $40. He has literally zero overhead, doesn't help anyone, just drop ships stuff cheap. These bunny slipper salesman often don't have a phone, don't answer emails, and some don't even maintain their own website - they buy a pre-built web package that is maintained by a fulfillment center. They know nothing about nor have they ever seen the parts they sell. They violate MAP pricing policies with no regard, will troll forums with "PM me for the best price!" tactics, and if they finally get busted by the non-lazy parts manufacturers that actually care about their dealers... they just spawn up again with a new name a month later.

It is impossible for real shops to make a living selling Other People's Parts (OPP). I know most of you don't care - you just want the best deal - but that's the reality of the situation. These "bunny slipper" online sellers are killing the automotive aftermarket. Eventually there will be no more Sam Stranos or Vorshlags to advise, help, consult, post pictures, do testing, or make new combinations of Other People's Parts. You'll just have TireRack - the WalMart of automotive parts - and Amazon to choose from.

Sam Strano has been doing this a while and I see him get very frustrated online dealing with these same problems - usually coming off with an even WORSE attitude than me. But after doing this professionally for a dozen years I understand where he's coming from. Doesn't mean I agree with his parts choices, brands he pushes, setup strategies, or customer service habits, but I get why he's so cynical. And yes, I will acknowledge and respect his many victories in autocrossing.

Phil has to admit, I shared some good tech in that post (that took me 30 minutes to put together). But one perceived slight and Mr Thinskin goes off and he now likely HATES me for LIFE. I see this all the time... if I don't candy coat the hell out of everything I post, coddle every customer, I'm branded a total A-HOLE. It sucks...

Oh well, like they say: "You win some, and you lose some". We will try to solider on without his business.

Hugs and kisses,

Don't mean to ressurrect old threads but your reading your posts helped me tons! Gained a new fan over here!
I'm a late bloomers to s197s.
Just got a 13 gt bone stock and am looking towards suspension upgrades.

 

[snowsled]

I am also late to the s197 but ended up with one about a year ago. After much research I recently installed the Vorshlag Track Pro set up on my 2011. I used to be a German car guy, was a Porsche club member for years and did lots of "driver ed" track events back in the day. I decided I didn't want to be a straight line racer so I went this route. Pretty pleased with the results. I have taken up Auto X because the SCCA has regular events near me. My car was lacking last season but is immediately competitive now with the new suspension and a set of Michelin sport 4S tires. Last weekend was my first AutoX with the new set up. I was running times comparable to a comparable driver in a C8 Corvette on 200 TW tires, stickier than mine, so the s197 can definitely be fun and competitive.