Shock and strut question

Phil1098

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I'm here at corner carver and not drag racing, that in mind what is everyone's take on a Bilstein B12 Pro Kit that comes with springs. I don't mind firm, but I don't want harsh. I have owned good handling cars in the past, a couple Porsches, Corvettes, and an AMG Mercedes. I have been on the fence on how much to lower too, 1" or 1.5"? Any and all thoughts are welcome.
 

Norm Peterson

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Unless you're chasing contingencies at the pointy end of time trialing or SCCA Solo, stick with the smaller amount lowering. A little more bumpstop clearance really is worth more than lowering just so it looks like the cars driven by the Cars & Coffee crowd who may not care to drive through the corners with any real enthusiasm.

"Big springs" - big" as opposed to small-diameter coilover springs - in the low to mid 200 range don't ride badly at all. A little more firmly than OE and they might 'thump' a bit more than stock going over expansion jointed concrete pavement, but nothing I'd call harsh (which is more apt to be due to shock/strut damping that's either way too stiff or worn out). That's what my wife and I have both observed since I swapped in springs of 260 and 220 lb/in (fitted to end up with about 1/2" lowering in the suspension).


Norm
 
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Phil1098

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"Big springs" - big" as opposed to small-diameter coilover springs - in the low to mid 200 range don't ride badly at all. A little more firmly than OE and they might 'thump' a bit more than stock going over expansion jointed concrete pavement, but nothing I'd call harsh (which is more apt to be due to shock/strut damping that's either way too stiff or worn out). That's what my wife and I have both observed since I swapped in springs of 260 and 220 lb/in (fitted to end up with about 1/2" lowering in the suspension).


Norm

So what are your thoughts on the B12 Bilstein kit? Some have said the FRPP Dynamic stuff is harsh, some say even Koni yellows aren't great, Tokico D specs come up but I don't even know if they are still made.
 

Norm Peterson

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I'm on Koni yellows, and the main thing they don't seem to deal with very well is the larger amounts of commonly available lowering. Or overloading that drives the rear down to a similar ride height. My experience with them on the street and on the track is that they have way more than enough damping for OE spring rates, and more than enough damping for the 260/220 springs on the street (haven't had that combination out on the track yet, waiting on 2 or 3 boxes of other parts).

FRPP dampers have been found a bit on the harsh side like the OE Ford dampers were. I don't think they blow off enough during high piston speed compression. Tokicos have been similar at least in their older Illumina line (if the Ill's are still available, don't ever buy them with your eyes closed to harshness).

I have Bilsteins on my wife's car, but with the OE springs. Good control - probably developed for aftermarket springs - but can be a little bounce-y under some low driving speed conditions with the OE springs. I don't know how, or even if, this translates over to the S197 B12 kit.

I've never run Eibach springs on anything, so I don't have much basis for comment there..


Norm
 

SoundGuyDave

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Stay away from the Tokicos.... I managed to BREAK one under normal street-tire-track-conditions. the piston had about 1/8" side-side play, and needless to say, the gas charge was long gone. The "warranty" would have taken 6-8 weeks to utilize, so into the garbage can they went. AST 4100s went in, but that is probably a little overkill for your application. Koni yellows are a pretty known quantity, ride nicely with most "normal" spring rates, just don't lower the bejeezus out of the car. A notch or two up the ladder, take a look at the KW V3 and clubsport stuff. No experience with the Bilstein, sorry.
 

ExSRT8Guy

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With all due respect to SGDave, I've been pleased with my Tokico Spec-Ds. Dave - your experience sounds like mine with Hankooks. Never had a blowout in almost 40 years or driving, but had not one, but TWO Hankooks blow out (same set). I wouldn't use Hankooks for a tire swing at this point.

Phil - Along with the Tokicos, I also have FRPP "P" springs, BMR poly LCAs, BMR front sway bar, FRPP rear bar, and GT500 upper strut mounts. With the shocks on 4 positions from full-hard, the ride is definitely firm, and I'm really pleased with how the handles, both on the street and at track days (disclaimer - I don't drive anywhere near 10/10ths). If I soften the shocks, I sacrifice some transitional response, but the ride is definitely better.

When I bought the car, it had Eibach Pro-Kit springs. Too low in the front, and rode like crap. Very pleased with the P springs; just the right amount of lowering. Like Norm says, there's something to be said for suspension travel!
 

Phil1098

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I have been pretty much set on P springs from the start, in my eyes, a one inch lowering is about right. I have no desire to have a slammed car, it just screws things up IMHO. I have read that when the car gets lowered at all, (one inch or more) it's really hard on the shocks and struts. I don't want to throw $2k at shocks and struts on a ten year old car, just isn't worth it to me. I will spend what I need to get shocks and struts that are made for and can tolerate lowering springs.

The reason I asked about the Bilstein B12 kit with springs is I found the kit for under $800 shipped. You figure $200 for springs and getting the Bilstein struts and shocks for under $600 isn't bad. If it's harsh and beats the piss out of the car, then it is bad. That kit lowers the front 1.3" and the rear 1.4" which is as far as I would want for sure.
 

Norm Peterson

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Half an inch by shorter tires (26.3") and another half inch from spring choice and a little DIY tinkering gives this ↓↓↓

picture.php



Norm
 

Boaisy

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I had this with the Eibach Pro springs on it:

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559

For DD, it wasn't bad and, in most cases, actually felt better than stock. Downside is you will need to have a low profile jack, or a handy set of ramps/lifts when you ever need to work under the car (at least for the front). At the track, drove pretty well and stable. Coilovers would still be an improvement, but at the time didn't have the $3k+ for a good set.

3 videos of it at the track below:






There are two more I can post of me at an HPDE, but can't find them atm (the videos were from another driver's car).
 

Phil1098

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I had this with the Eibach Pro springs on it:

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559

For DD, it wasn't bad and, in most cases, actually felt better than stock. Downside is you will need to have a low profile jack, or a handy set of ramps/lifts when you ever need to work under the car (at least for the front). At the track, drove pretty well and stable. Coilovers would still be an improvement, but at the time didn't have the $3k+ for a good set.

I have jacks and ramps so that isn't an issue. Should I just use GT500 mounts or spring for CC plates? Not going to track the car so CC plates may be a waste.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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EVERYTHING IS A COMPROMISE...

DSC_6115-M.jpg


The S197 Mustang comes from the factory with SUPER soft springs, total crap shocks (and the FRPP stuff is just as bad), and VERY tall ride heights. They have to make one car that can be driven by virtually anyone, anywhere. Through 6" of snow with chains. Over gravel roads. Driving up insanely steep driveway entrance inclines. Every mouth breathing moron in the world can get into a Mustang and be expected to not rip the front end off or crash.

DSC_6175a-ride-heights-M.jpg


Running a Mustang at a lower ride height (by simply adding "lowering springs") does lowe the Center of Gravity, which increases lateral grip. But with stock length shocks and struts (likely what you are looking at with that eBay $800 Bilstein B12 kit, or Konis, or Tokicos, or almost anything else that uses OEM style springs) and you compromise the total strut and shock travel. You run out of bump travel, so the struts and/or shocks crash and bottom on ever smaller bumps. This kills shocks FAST and makes the ride quality CRAP.

tok-dsp12_9233.jpg


There are two fixes to this problem (lowering springs + stock length shocks): the Bilstein "streetpro" kit we sell has a shorter strut body. It gains some much needed strut travel up front, where it tends to run out quickly. Out back we recommend trimming the rear bumpstop (in half) and staying with 1.0 to 1.5" of lowering. We won't sell a number of "popular" lowering springs because they are too soft (many are softer than stock) and/or they over-lower the rear. Our shock and spring package cost a hair more than the stuff you can get from the fleaBay special sellers (and yes, we can sell these with GT500 top mounts instead of camber plates).

_DSC8498%20copy-M.jpg


The better fix is going with a quality aftermarket coilover, almost all of which are 1.5-2.0" or more shorter than the OEM strut and shock lengths. Then you can lower the cars 1.5-2.0" without losing much bump travel. You won't have the same bump travel as the 4X4 OEM ride height cars, but you will have 2" more than the guys using stock length struts/shocks with 2" lowering springs. Bonus: These shocks are sometimes valved properly and can deal with a LOT more spring rate, which combats brake dive, squat, roll, etc. But the HIGHER COSTS are the downside.

DSC_6056-S.jpg
DSC_6339-S.jpg

Left: Soft and tall OEM suspension = excessive body roll + Tire wear. Right: Flatter cornering with Vorshlag TrackPro suspension.

None of the OEM style lowering springs are appreciably stiffer than stock. 99% of the "internet numbers" posted about lowering spring rates are WRONG. These are all -10% to +20% stiffer than stock. Which isn't almost noticeable. Coilover springs can be 200-700% stiffer than stock. Which you CAN notice... in flatter cornering and less brake dive.

B61G1934_B-M.jpg


And then adjustable monotube coilovers have real adjustable damping rates so even MORE spring rate can be used, but the costs go up and up...

_DSC7499%20copy-M.jpg


When tenths of a second matter, or having tunability for changing tracks/conditions/setups, REAL shocks matter. Hell I'm gonna hashtag that... #RealShocksMatter

_DSC4496-M.jpg


My best recommendation is: before choosing what works best for you, get the most and best information you can get. Coming to this sub-forum on S197forums is the right first step... More help is but a phone call away. I bet your "$800 shock deal guy" doesn't have a phone number on his eBay page.:whistle1:

Cheers,
 
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Phil1098

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Our shock and spring package cost a hair more than the stuff you can get from the fleaBay special sellers (and yes, we can sell these with GT500 top mounts instead of camber plates).

Coming to this sub-forum on S197forums is the right first step... More help is but a phone call away. I bet your "$800 shock deal guy" doesn't have a phone number on his eBay page.:whistle1:

Thanks for the info and the condescending attitude Terry. I'm 56, not some 18 year old kid. I don't recall ever mentioning the Bilstein B12 Pro Kit I am looking at is on eBay, it's not BTW, but an authorized Bilstein dealer with both an address and a phone.The part number I am looking at is 46-228888, if this is some crap parts I need to let Tire Rack, American Muscle, CJ Pony Parts, and Steeda, to name a few, to quit selling this garbage. I do respect the fact you have a huge amount of real world experience with this, but don't assume everyone else just sits in the back of a cave looking at drawings in the dirt floor.
 

Speedboosted

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Thanks for the info and the condescending attitude Terry. I'm 56, not some 18 year old kid. I don't recall ever mentioning the Bilstein B12 Pro Kit I am looking at is on eBay, it's not BTW, but an authorized Bilstein dealer with both an address and a phone.The part number I am looking at is 46-228888, if this is some crap parts I need to let Tire Rack, American Muscle, CJ Pony Parts, and Steeda, to name a few, to quit selling this garbage. I do respect the fact you have a huge amount of real world experience with this, but don't assume everyone else just sits in the back of a cave looking at drawings in the dirt floor.

Old fella, see this thread for the proper Bilstein strut part numbers.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127483
 

Phil1098

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Old fella, see this thread for the proper Bilstein strut part numbers.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127483

Thanks for assuming I'm wrong when I'm not. The part number given is for a B12 Pro Kit that includes both the shocks and the struts and the Eibach springs. I wasn't listing individual shock or strut part numbers, why don't you google my part number and see if anything at all comes up. After you do, you can come back and tell everyone I was right. Thanks for the old fella comment, just means I've seen more life than you.

BTW, I did look at the link you provided and verified the kit I listed does indeed use the individual part number pieces from the link. Always good to verify one is getting what they want.
 
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djclark

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I recently switched from Strange Struts/Shocks w/ BMR springs ( SP009 ) to the Vorshlag StreetPro Kit with FRPP K springs. Having driven the car on this setup for a couple weeks now - I can say this. This suspension is beautiful. Rides well, handles well etc... My complete setup is :

Vorshlag-Bilstein StreetPro Monotube Suspension Kit ( K Springs / -1.2 camber )
BMR Front Adjustable Sway ( Setting 3 - middle )
BMR Rear Adjustable Sway ( Setting 1 - softest )
BMR Adj Fr. End links
BMR Reloc Brackets
Steeda Rear Lower Control Arms
Steeda Panhard
245/45R19 Bridgestone Potenza Pole Position S04 Front
275/40R19 Bridgestone Potenza Pole Position S04 Rear

I had been running the front bar on the softest setting. I had clunking from the BMR end links so while I was down there I moved both to the middle position. Figured tightening up the front would counteract the larger tires out back. Looks like I was right. Car is turning in more crisply. Overall, the car is on point and just feels solid as hell - especially at high speeds. Changing lanes, driving like an asshole. Car is solid. No wallowing etc... Last piece of the suspension puzzle for me is the BMR watts link sitting half assembled on my dining room table.

I highly recommend you go with the Vorshlag StreetPro Kit. Just do it right the first time.

Hope that helps.
 

Boaisy

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I have jacks and ramps so that isn't an issue. Should I just use GT500 mounts or spring for CC plates? Not going to track the car so CC plates may be a waste.

GT500 mounts should be fine for non-track use. As Terry said, they can customize their kit if needed.

Thanks for the info and the condescending attitude Terry. I'm 56, not some 18 year old kid. I don't recall ever mentioning the Bilstein B12 Pro Kit I am looking at is on eBay, it's not BTW, but an authorized Bilstein dealer with both an address and a phone.The part number I am looking at is 46-228888, if this is some crap parts I need to let Tire Rack, American Muscle, CJ Pony Parts, and Steeda, to name a few, to quit selling this garbage. I do respect the fact you have a huge amount of real world experience with this, but don't assume everyone else just sits in the back of a cave looking at drawings in the dirt floor.

I know Terry may come off as an a-hole for some, but he has done a TON of R&D when it comes to the S197's and "all-around" use.

A couple of threads of his:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123860
http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92238

When I first got my Mustang 3-4 years ago, I had joined another forum, that I don't care to name, before this one. Their "suspension guy" is Sam Strano. When I asked him for advice on the path to go, he wouldn't even give the time of day without having to call his shop. Not to mention, most of the stuff he sells are things you can buy from AM, Ebay, Amazon, etc (nothing custom made). Even if you did get an answer out of him, he couldn't really say "this is the kit for you." It was more of "one of these 4 kits may work."

In talking with Terry and/or Jason before making my purchase, I felt like I was getting the answers that I was asking for, good or bad. His shop is obviously knowledgeable about the work they do, and they have definitely invested quite a bit of time in it. Not just with the Mustang, but with other cars as well.

I have seen Sam and Terry go back a forth a couple times (not necessarily on this forum), but one thing you will definitely see out of Terry's posts is pictures, data, trial & error, and real world experience. Sam may have a few SCCA championships in a STOCK class, but Terry and Jason both care about, and take pride in, the work they put into these cars. You may not run your car at the track, but their info can still help for a daily driver.
 

Phil1098

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GT500 mounts should be fine for non-track use.



I know Terry may come off as an a-hole for some, but he has done a TON of R&D when it comes to the S197's and "all-around" use.

Thank you for the honest thoughts on the mounts, just don't want to do things twice. Not looking to build a race car, just a good handling street car. I still may spend the $ on CC plates, on the fence.

Doing lots of seat time and R&D doesn't give anyone carte blanche on being a jerk. I did/do recognize the huge amount of real world experience Terry has with this, but at the end of the day, insulting people will not generate sales. No, someone that's been insulted says "No problem, I'll just buy my stuff some where else".
 

Mustang259

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Just my two cents, but I think you are little over critical of Terry, He gave you some very good info, and I would not have taken offense to it myself, but thats me. Remember you asked for advice, and got it, I suppose there are "nicer" forums out there but from my experience they don't know much. Bottom line is do you want to actually improve your car or worry about your feelings ? I suggest you go to the vorschlag website and see how much FREE info is available on his blogs etc. I just wish his shop was closer, he would be working on my GT and could say what ever he wanted. Good luck in your search for a better suspension, Im doing the same research as well.
 

Mark Aubele

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I have seen Sam and Terry go back a forth a couple times (not necessarily on this forum), but one thing you will definitely see out of Terry's posts is pictures, data, trial & error, and real world experience. Sam may have a few SCCA championships in a STOCK class, but Terry and Jason both care about, and take pride in, the work they put into these cars. You may not run your car at the track, but their info can still help for a daily driver.

Sam has won multiple national championships in ESP as well, and setup countless cars that won in other classes.
 
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Vorshlag-Fair

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Well look, I've made another new lifetime fan! All it took was one perceived slight in a giant post full of helpful tech. Come on Phil, lighten up. At 56 you don't want to be lumped in with the "I need a safe space", easily ruffled Millennial crowd. At our age we are supposed to make fun of those easily offended people! :whistle1:

Look, we get a lot of tire kickers and broke kids that ask us a ton of questions, some wanting detailed estimates, and often we spend an hour or more on the phone working with them. A typical MCS coilover sale takes 2-3 hours of consultation, via email and/or phone. But we take pride in helping people chose the right suspension/camber plate/wheel/brakes/seat/etc that fits their needs. We ask lots of questions about what their goals are, where/how they drive, if they run in competition, street/track percentages, and how long they have been doing this sport or that. We are also often talking people out of higher end parts (ie: making less profit) if it doesn't fit their needs. We don't beat them over the head with how many trophies we've won, but instead we listen and try to guide folks. It takes time and effort.

Often some percentage of these folks take that knowledge and then they go buy the parts we have recommended from TireRack or eBay or Amazon, to save a buck. Sometimes they literally only save ONE dollar, but that's enough for some people to "go cheap". And often they still call us for tech support after they bought elsewhere - during the install, for tuning help, etc - and are RUDE and INCREDULOUS when we ask them where they bought the parts. "Why does it matter???"

Its frustrating as hell. But nobody seems to care - its the Amazon-ificaiton of our world. I want it CHEAP and I want it NOW! :insane: That's not exactly what happened here - Phil just wanted affirmation on the shocks he wants to buy. Maybe I took a cheap shot at where he wanted to buy them, oh well. Whoever is selling those shocks and springs for $800 is making ZERO profit on the sale, I know that much.

It just makes me a little crazy when I see folks here - where Jason, Jon and I spend lots of time sharing tech and answering questions - buying things we sell from the absolute cheapest places, usually eBay or the like. Bilstein is one of the few brands we sell that has ZERO pricing policies, and they will let ANYONE WITH A PULSE sell their products at whatever prices they want. I often go to these "awesome deal" links and look up the parts, calculate the costs, and realize... these places often make less than 5% on selling some products. We've contemplated dropping Bilstein SO many times, but they do make some great monotube dampers and selling these "no profit" parts gives us access to their motorsport catalog, where we can custom build things like this.

jpg_DSC9256%20copy-M.jpg


Bilstein is a unique problem, for sure. On their shock kits, to be "competitive with the internet" I'm supposed to make a living, pay my employees, pay the overhead and keep the lights on, do testing in the shop and on the track, prove the parts we sell in competition, answer customer questions 24/7... for 5% margin on an $800 sale. That's $40 profit, which is often lost in shipping. How? We don't just drop-ship Bilstein direct to the end user like everyone else, we pay to ship the shocks here so we can assemble our Bilstein shock kits (springs + top mounts) in-house to verify everything is correct and to save the end user time and hassles And since it usually costs me $50 to ship a set of shocks here, I'd lose $10 on that $800 sale... its a farce. :omfg:

B61G4555-M.jpg


Yet some kid working out of his mom's basement selling parts on an a website "while working in his bunny slippers" can do those painless, drop-ship sales and get by on $40. He has literally zero overhead, doesn't help anyone, just drop ships stuff cheap. These bunny slipper salesman often don't have a phone, don't answer emails, and some don't even maintain their own website - they buy a pre-built web package that is maintained by a fulfillment center. They know nothing about nor have they ever seen the parts they sell. They violate MAP pricing policies with no regard, will troll forums with "PM me for the best price!" tactics, and if they finally get busted by the non-lazy parts manufacturers that actually care about their dealers... they just spawn up again with a new name a month later.

It is impossible for real shops to make a living selling Other People's Parts (OPP). I know most of you don't care - you just want the best deal - but that's the reality of the situation. These "bunny slipper" online sellers are killing the automotive aftermarket. Eventually there will be no more Sam Stranos or Vorshlags to advise, help, consult, post pictures, do testing, or make new combinations of Other People's Parts. You'll just have TireRack - the WalMart of automotive parts - and Amazon to choose from.

Sam Strano has been doing this a while and I see him get very frustrated online dealing with these same problems - usually coming off with an even WORSE attitude than me. ;) But after doing this professionally for a dozen years I understand where he's coming from. Doesn't mean I agree with his parts choices, brands he pushes, setup strategies, or customer service habits, but I get why he's so cynical. And yes, I will acknowledge and respect his many victories in autocrossing. :)

Phil has to admit, I shared some good tech in that post (that took me 30 minutes to put together). But one perceived slight and Mr Thinskin goes off and he now likely HATES me for LIFE. I see this all the time... if I don't candy coat the hell out of everything I post, coddle every customer, I'm branded a total A-HOLE. It sucks... :disgust:

Oh well, like they say: "You win some, and you lose some". We will try to solider on without his business.

Hugs and kisses,
 
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