Timing and cam issues

[cwhit23]

My car has thrown p0012 code, so I realize it's more than likely a VCT solenoid, or a cam phaser..

Awhile back it threw the code for the opposite bank, replaced the phaser and seems okay.. however under data log both cams are still out of time..

so my questions are:

What are the odds of both phasers going withing weeks of each other? Is there something that can cause them to go bad? As in, an oiling problem or something?

I plan on pulling the front cover to check the timing .. I didn't time the motor I paid a guy to do it and I have a feeling it's off..

However if it isn't, what could cause the cams to keep being out of time?

 

[BIGCHRISS197]

I had a vct solenoid fail awhile back, pulled it and found the screen on it to be damaged and jammed the solenoid and threw the same p0012 code, has the car ran right at all since the timing was done?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Getting a P0012 code showing the bank 1 cam over retarded would lead me to believe there is a phaser failure. What year is your Mustang? The 05-06 models were more subject to failure as they had the early design cam phasers. These are prone to failure and in the event of failure at idle your most likely going have the cams go full retard.

IF your going to pull the cover I recommend getting a Ford Racing 4.6 3V cam timing kit which comes with new phasers, tensioners, chains, etc. If you need it, we sell them for $315 and have them in stock, just call me 732-780-0770

 

[cwhit23]

I had a vct solenoid fail awhile back, pulled it and found the screen on it to be damaged and jammed the solenoid and threw the same p0012 code, has the car ran right at all since the timing was done?

The car doesn't run bad.. It did the first time the other phaser went bad. It surged and died a lot. It hasn't been doing that now, but the cams under data have never been in time. So I'm puzzled. I'm going to check the VCT's as according to your picture and make sure all that is okay.

Getting a P0012 code showing the bank 1 cam over retarded would lead me to believe there is a phaser failure. What year is your Mustang? The 05-06 models were more subject to failure as they had the early design cam phasers. These are prone to failure and in the event of failure at idle your most likely going have the cams go full retard.

IF your going to pull the cover I recommend getting a Ford Racing 4.6 3V cam timing kit which comes with new phasers, tensioners, chains, etc. If you need it, we sell them for $315 and have them in stock, just call me 732-780-0770

Yeah, I don't want to pull the cover, but I'm going to have to , to check the timing and be 100% sure. I will probably buy the kit and just do it all. I'm going to call the mechanic and see what he thinks..

I'm just afraid there is an oiling problem or something , is there any other thing that could cause these to go out of time?

Edit: Yes the car is a 2006 model, so that might explain a little bit of it.

 

[cwhit23]

Bumping back up..

I just put the car on a live data stream.. The (bank 1) one side cam is not advancing or anything so I'm sure it's a phaser or VCT.... However bank 2 is staying 10 degrees advanced at idle.. I was under the impression this was to be at or near 0.. Any ideas? Come on guru's I need help or suggestions or something.. I replaced the bank 2 phaser about a month ago. THis is what concerns me..

 

[BruceH]

Bumping back up..

I just put the car on a live data stream.. The (bank 1) one side cam is not advancing or anything so I'm sure it's a phaser or VCT.... However bank 2 is staying 10 degrees advanced at idle.. I was under the impression this was to be at or near 0.. Any ideas? Come on guru's I need help or suggestions or something.. I replaced the bank 2 phaser about a month ago. THis is what concerns me..

The cams don't advance. They can only retard. Full advance is 0 degrees while full retard is -60.

Which pids are you looking at? There are a few cam postiton pids to choose from in livelink and not all of them are active for a 3v.

 

[cwhit23]

well maybe I was looking at it wrong as far as advance vs retard.. but shouldn't they be at 0 at idle? instead of 1 at 0 and the other 10 retard? I'm actually using all data scan tool.. Its a shop tool that is used in garages. I have access to a shop that I can use this. I can see the data live from that w/out using a laptop..

So if one cam is at 0 and the other is at 10 what sense does that make?

 

[BIGCHRISS197]

Have you pulled out the vct solenoid to inspect yet?

 

[cwhit23]

Not yet, I'm going to try and check them this week, along with put a guage on the oil pressure to make sure the motor is getting pressure.. At that point, I'm going to get a new timing set, replace it all, some cams, some lock outs, and put the blower on and pray.

 

[BruceH]

Here's an example of what I was getting at. The cam angles were set to 5 degrees. I was testing airflows with different cam angles at the time. VCT commands a little different than the other operations in advantage and I had to do some datalogging to figure out why the cams weren't responding as commanded. Eventually figured it out.

Anyway, notice the different reported cam angles from the different pids. I'd make sure the tool you are using is selecting the correct pids or do a livelink datalog before trying to fix it.

 

[cwhit23]

I sent a data log to Lito and had him look at it. He used these pids too. He mentioned that the cams were out of time as well and ask me if the car was timed correctly. I told him am not sure..

Being out of time will that keep killing Cam phasers? Or can a problem with the cams cause timing issues..

 

[Alfiedagr8]

I recommend you start with the basics. Check base oil pressure at normal tramp and go from there. This information will dictate which direction to go with. Bad timing or timing components or base engine issue. Let us know what u find and we go from there.


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[Captainstr8edge]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I just threw this code and the car has been running kinda shitty lately with random surging while cruising. Is there a write up on how to pull the VCT solenoids so I can check them?

 

[michael.konor]

Pretty simple on your 07.

- Remove valve cover
- Using Torx bit, remove VCT solenoid
- Clean, repair, or replace as needed
- Cleanup RTV on heads where timing cover meets heads and valve cover
- Apply new RTV
- Reverse procedure to re-install

 

[Captainstr8edge]

OK, thanks. Wasn't sure if the cover needed to be removed or not. Any idea what size torx bit?

 

[michael.konor]

Not that I can remember. I've got a set and just tried them until one fit.

 

[Captainstr8edge]

ok, hopefully one from the set I have works. We will see. thanks.

 

[BadPiggy]

ok, hopefully one from the set I have works. We will see. thanks.

Be sure you have a T27 to try.
The T25 & T27 are so close in size...you may think the T25 is correct when a T27 is actually the one that fits.
These 2 bits are really that close.

If you don't have a T27...invest $40 in a Lisle master set, usually found at Sears.
Damn good torx bits.

 

[Captainstr8edge]

will do, thanks!

 

[BadPiggy]

will do, thanks!

http://www.lislecorp.com/divisions/products/?product=135