To build or to buy

[BruceH]

I will have to look at it more I guess. I was just thinking that I didn't want to have to do all the work and if I could get a long block delivered and ready to put in.... why not? Regardless, I will take a look at the B53 options..... but who knows, my plan could change tomorrow. I keep sweating the GT350.

Thanks for the feedback.

Assembling a motor is fairly straight forward. Provided that the machine shop did their part right the rest is just assembling parts, it's not a huge thing unless you want it to be.

Just for the sake of it let's get a ballpark on a B53 assembled. B53 $5100 but probably less, FRPP 3v cnc heads $1700, FRPP head changing kit for the Big Bore $250, motor mount adapters $200, other gaskets and misc $100, FRPP timing kit $250.

Figuring everything high it's still around $7500 but could be less. That's for a forged motor that will take some abuse and will make decent na power. The assembly would be super easy, even the short block is already assembled.

 

[MassMustang]

Assembling a motor is fairly straight forward. Provided that the machine shop did their part right the rest is just assembling parts, it's not a huge thing unless you want it to be.

Just for the sake of it let's get a ballpark on a B53 assembled. B53 $5100 but probably less, FRPP 3v cnc heads $1700, FRPP head changing kit for the Big Bore $250, motor mount adapters $200, other gaskets and misc $100, FRPP timing kit $250.

Figuring everything high it's still around $7500 but could be less. That's for a forged motor that will take some abuse and will make decent na power. The assembly would be super easy, even the short block is already assembled.

I love the breakdown! How about the breakdown on building the stock block?

 

[TRC51]

Assembling a motor is fairly straight forward. Provided that the machine shop did their part right the rest is just assembling parts, it's not a huge thing unless you want it to be.

Just for the sake of it let's get a ballpark on a B53 assembled. B53 $5100 but probably less, FRPP 3v cnc heads $1700, FRPP head changing kit for the Big Bore $250, motor mount adapters $200, other gaskets and misc $100, FRPP timing kit $250.

Figuring everything high it's still around $7500 but could be less. That's for a forged motor that will take some abuse and will make decent na power. The assembly would be super easy, even the short block is already assembled.

That... was an outstanding post! We'll done Bruce. Thanks for that.

 

[NUTCASE]

Assembling a motor is fairly straight forward. Provided that the machine shop did their part right the rest is just assembling parts, it's not a huge thing unless you want it to be.

Really?

I have torn down motors to the short block before and put them back together a few times so I am ok with that. I am paranoid to rebuild a block though. All those clearances and balances and things seemed like I would have to take a lot of time reading and buying new tools just to have the first motor fail and do it all over again within a week.

You know I pulled apart an automatic transmission once.


.......once....LOL

 

[Boone]

I'd rather buy the 5.3L if I wanted to do a "drastic" swap. Plus, if it's truly only 70lbs heavier, then a 5.3L with a blower making gobs of power should be able to compensate for the extra 70lbs.

What if I want to stay N/A? I have a Livernois stroker kit with Stage 3 N/A heads and cams. C&L racer intake, stock TB, and C&L aluminium intake feed the motor. 1 5/8" long tubes with cats and Roush extreme performance exhaust finish the air path. Is my setup screaming for the BOSS50, or do I save the weight and $ and bore a used stock block 0.10 over. New pistons required either way. Can a N/A 5.3L hot setup make up for the 75 pound gain up front on a corner carver?

This is real, not theoretical. My engine is torn down, stock block is .030 over (scrap). Planning the build now to start asap.

Thanks for your experience.

 

[Boone]

For na comparison I gained 90 rwhp when comparing my current 322 inch motor to a previous 285 inch motor. 90 rwhp with a cubic inch increase of 37, a compression increase of 1 point (11:1 vs 12:1) mid length headers with cats vs shorties with cats, and a slightly different camshaft. The total uncorrected power was 437rhwp on E85.

Any thoughts on 12:1 compression on 93 octane pump gas? All the standard pistons I see max out at 11:1. Can I squeeze some more power out of a N/A setup and not have my tuner kill me (or my engine)?

 

[Boone]

Double Post

 

[MassMustang]

What if I want to stay N/A? I have a Livernois stroker kit with Stage 3 N/A heads and cams. C&L racer intake, stock TB, and C&L aluminium intake feed the motor. 1 5/8" long tubes with cats and Roush extreme performance exhaust finish the air path. Is my setup screaming for the BOSS50, or do I save the weight and $ and bore a used stock block 0.10 over. New pistons required either way. Can a N/A 5.3L hot setup make up for the 75 pound gain up front on a corner carver?

This is real, not theoretical. My engine is torn down, stock block is .030 over (scrap). Planning the build now to start asap.

Thanks for your experience.

I'd save the weight.

Strokers are supposed to shift the torque band left. Supposedly good for the low-end to midrange. Do you agree? That's what I like about my 4.56s and why I'm thinking centri blower and the stroker kit.

 

[Boone]

If 5.0 Cammer blocks can still be obtained, wouldn't this give me the best of both worlds? Low weight and unshrouding the valves. I'm staying N/A, so the "don't like boost" issue is moot. I know the money is an issue (because it's my money), but let's ignore that for this discussion. I can compare the bang for the buck.

The aluminum 4.6 is a known quantity, and they can be purchased new or used. That said, I'd like to nail down the facts on the 3.700 bore options.
Other than weight, are there any other advantages / disadvantages to the Cammer vs. the BOSS50?
Does the Cammer have the oiling improvements of the the BOSS50?
Should I be concerned there are only a handful of the Cammer blocks left?
What about future rebuilds? I assume the 3.700 blocks can't go any bigger on the bore. Are all the 5.3 blocks a dead end street?

Any advise steering the direction of my rebuild is appreciated.

 

[BruceH]

Really?

I have torn down motors to the short block before and put them back together a few times so I am ok with that. I am paranoid to rebuild a block though. All those clearances and balances and things seemed like I would have to take a lot of time reading and buying new tools just to have the first motor fail and do it all over again within a week.

You know I pulled apart an automatic transmission once.


.......once....LOL

I have a machine shop who I trust to measure bearing clearances. They will also target a clearance for me if I specify. They have much better measuring equipment than I do. I can verify with plastigauge but that's more of a ballpark reading imo. I've used it but don't really trust it.

If I had a machine shop I couldn't trust to do the correct machining then things would be different. I realized some time ago that I can only control so much, precision machining is one of those things I have to pass on to someone with the tools and experience.

IMO it pays to talk to a potential machine shop. I mean really talk to them, not just have them tell you they have been building sbc motors for a long time and lots of racers swear by them. Ask if they can hold the ra for a mod motor, if they say yes then ask if they have a profilometer to measure the ra. Ask them how they determine bearing clearances and why they do it that way.

I called quite a few shops until I found two that would actually talk to me. Most would just say something to the effect of "this is how we do it, we have always done it this way, we know what we are doing". The shops who gave that sort of answer were generally upset that someone would even ask questions.

Of the two who talked to me I chose one who didn't specialize in mod motors but they did a whole lot of modern motors like LS and the new Hemi. Modern motors have some things in common like closer tolerances and mls gaskets. Being able to obtain the closer tolerances with the correct finish is a big deal imo. What I'm after is something that comes out as close to stock clearance and finish as possible. Ford has an excellent track record with the mod motors. For longevity and for ability to take abuse. All I'm doing is replacing the parts that usually fail and maybe bumping the compression, using a ported head, things like that. I'm not specifiying large clearances or re engineering the design. IMO Ford already spent a whole lot of time and money to get the motor where it is.

With all of that said if I was doing something for big power numbers I'd be calling someone who builds racing mod motors that last. There are only a few shops that truly build race motors and it will cost you. Ask Dave about that, lol.

Any thoughts on 12:1 compression on 93 octane pump gas? All the standard pistons I see max out at 11:1. Can I squeeze some more power out of a N/A setup and not have my tuner kill me (or my engine)?

12:1 is all you can get with a Big Bore that's stroked. At least that's all you can get with the FRPP 53cc cnc heads. Stock heads will boost it a little and the 48cc heads will boost it even more. For any more compression you will need chamber casts sent to the piston manufacturer in order to make pop up pistons.

I've run my 12:1 with 92 pump gas. It runs just fine. I keep max spark advance down to 26 degrees. I think it could go 28 just fine but I did pick up spark retard during a wot pull once. It was after I had filled at a station I don't usually use. I really think I got 89 or less octane because I had previously been able to run 28 degrees without issue.

I leave the knock sensors turned on, same with rear o2 sensors, cat and valve protection. I've even run 92 pump with boost and 11 and 12:1. The tune was kept conservative. I'm of the opinion that leaving all the protections on helps the motor to survive should something go wrong.

 

[BruceH]

What if I want to stay N/A? I have a Livernois stroker kit with Stage 3 N/A heads and cams. C&L racer intake, stock TB, and C&L aluminium intake feed the motor. 1 5/8" long tubes with cats and Roush extreme performance exhaust finish the air path. Is my setup screaming for the BOSS50, or do I save the weight and $ and bore a used stock block 0.10 over. New pistons required either way. Can a N/A 5.3L hot setup make up for the 75 pound gain up front on a corner carver?

This is real, not theoretical. My engine is torn down, stock block is .030 over (scrap). Planning the build now to start asap.

Thanks for your experience.

Edit: I just saw the part about .030 over. I've pushed 19psi on a 4.6 that was .030 over, it resulted in 699rwhp. It's not scrap by any means. Billy 05stroker has run more boost and power with a .030 over motor.

You can go with a cammer or have a stock block sleeved. Darton makes a complete bank of sleeves that takes extensive machining to install. I toyed with the idea of using cammer sleeves from frpp with a stock block but eventually didn't. After examining all the options it was pretty hard to justify using anything but the BBB block. First of all it works and it will work with boost. It's a special iron matrix that weighs less than a standard cast iron block would weigh. How much less I don't know but the whole block is about 150 lbs. It's light enough that I can load it in my pickup without assistance. FWIW I'm 6'1" and not a "strongman" by any means.

Seventy pounds is not that much extra weight. I also have about 50lbs of dynamat in the car along with other comfort items so I'm not someone who is shaving every last bit of weight.

If you are really looking for something different get with lito. He took a 4.6 block and had it machined to accept coyote bore pistons. He also had a coyote crank machined to work with a 4.6. IIRC it also took some block machining to get the crank to work with the oil pump. The result was a coyote bore and stroke in a 4.6 block. I think the extensive crank machining ended up being the most expensive part of that project.

For more info on the Big Bore Boss you can use my build thread as a reference. http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105837

For those who are looking for a 4.6 build there are plenty that are documented on this site. It's fairly simple imo. All you are really doing is following the Ford manual that Louie in Dubai has provided. The difference is that you are replacing the rods and pistons with stronger parts. It can be more complicated if you want it to be but it doesn't have to be.

http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=158 is the link to the info Louie has posted. I try to donate every once in awhile when I'm using the info a lot.

 

[NUTCASE]

Most would just say something to the effect of "this is how we do it, we have always done it this way, we know what we are doing". The shops who gave that sort of answer were generally upset that someone would even ask questions.

Yeah, I have come across a lot of shops like that. Its like they haven't done anything new since 1972 and then look at me like I'm the stupid one.

 

[onehotpny]

Thanks for the info BruceH , like the op, I'm wanting to finally start my engine build through the winter/spring months and was wondering weather to go with the B53 short block myself or do a complete forged bottom end on my engine. my car only has by time of either build will be only 16,000 miles on it. So not sure which route to take? Do the B53 short block and use my heads which has comp cams with bee hive springs and titanium retainers, use my American racing LT headers and add the upgraded oil pump,and maybe sell my Vortech HO and get a Whipple.. This will be a street driven car mostly. Just want something that will have plenty of HP and torque when wanting to get down on it.

 

[MassMustang]

Thanks for the info BruceH , like the op, I'm wanting to finally start my engine build through the winter/spring months and was wondering weather to go with the B53 short block myself or do a complete forged bottom end on my engine. my car only has by time of either build will be only 16,000 miles on it. So not sure which route to take? Do the B53 short block and use my heads which has comp cams with bee hive springs and titanium retainers, use my American racing LT headers and add the upgraded oil pump,and maybe sell my Vortech HO and get a Whipple.. This will be a street driven car mostly. Just want something that will have plenty of HP and torque when wanting to get down on it.

What's wrong with the Vortech? You're where I want to be next year with the 127350 CompCams, hi-lift valve springs and a centri blower. If you buy a B53, just drop your current setup in my car! LOL

 

[BruceH]

shouldn't you be getting more than 437 rwhp on a 322 high compression build? It just seems to me like you should be getting more than that out of your build.

I thought about this some more. When I was active in the local Mustang scene we would do dyno days. I've seen stock 2007 and 2008 GT500s put down around 440-450rwhp. The lowest I ever saw a stock GT500 do was 42x. Stock Lightnings put down less than 400 and stock Terminators aren't that far off either. My homemade, hometuned combo is putting down numbers that are comparable with the early GT500 Mustangs stock. The differences are that my motor is na and it has less cubic inches along with heads that flow less. In my mind the motor is doing pretty well for numbers. Over 1.5 hp per cubic inch. When I add in that it's not a race motor, it doesn't overheat in traffic, doesn't need to idle at 1500 rpms to stay running, and all the other things high horsepower motors used to do back in the day I think it's doing even better.

How much would you think a streetable 322 cubic inch motor should make? What do 5.3 LS motors make? I suppose nobody mods the smaller LS motors. Now that I think about it I've seen a heavily modded 6.2 Camaro put down numbers that were close to mine, I can't remember the exact numbers but I think he was around 460rwhp na and that was with wide open headers. He also couldn't really drive it in traffic very well.

Thanks for the info BruceH , like the op, I'm wanting to finally start my engine build through the winter/spring months and was wondering weather to go with the B53 short block myself or do a complete forged bottom end on my engine. my car only has by time of either build will be only 16,000 miles on it. So not sure which route to take? Do the B53 short block and use my heads which has comp cams with bee hive springs and titanium retainers, use my American racing LT headers and add the upgraded oil pump,and maybe sell my Vortech HO and get a Whipple.. This will be a street driven car mostly. Just want something that will have plenty of HP and torque when wanting to get down on it.

You already have a good basis imo. Given the options and where you are why not just do the B53 with your heads? Change the cams to 127550 and lock them out 6 degrees retarded. This setup will have enough power to keep you happy for awhile and boost will only make you happier. Adding your vortech will give you even more top end, it would compliment the additional grunt down low nicely.

Keep your stock block on an engine stand in case you ever want to go back to stock. All you have to do is place an order with a FRPP dealer. Make sure to get the motor mount adapters and BBB head changing kit at the same time.

 

[onehotpny]

BruceH, So are you saying to keep the Polished Vortech HO instead of getting a Polished Whipple? I thought the Whipple will give me instant Boost,where the Vortech HO brings the boost on slowly. Thanks for the info, I've been just waiting for available funds to do this and the time is very close,just debating on doing it early winter or waiting for it to warm up a little bit before I start on it.I think while the engine is out of the engine bay I'll finish the wire tuck even more. any other info would be great...

I thought about this some more. When I was active in the local Mustang scene we would do dyno days. I've seen stock 2007 and 2008 GT500s put down around 440-450rwhp. The lowest I ever saw a stock GT500 do was 42x. Stock Lightnings put down less than 400 and stock Terminators aren't that far off either. My homemade, hometuned combo is putting down numbers that are comparable with the early GT500 Mustangs stock. The differences are that my motor is na and it has less cubic inches along with heads that flow less. In my mind the motor is doing pretty well for numbers. Over 1.5 hp per cubic inch. When I add in that it's not a race motor, it doesn't overheat in traffic, doesn't need to idle at 1500 rpms to stay running, and all the other things high horsepower motors used to do back in the day I think it's doing even better.

How much would you think a streetable 322 cubic inch motor should make? What do 5.3 LS motors make? I suppose nobody mods the smaller LS motors. Now that I think about it I've seen a heavily modded 6.2 Camaro put down numbers that were close to mine, I can't remember the exact numbers but I think he was around 460rwhp na and that was with wide open headers. He also couldn't really drive it in traffic very well.



You already have a good basis imo. Given the options and where you are why not just do the B53 with your heads? Change the cams to 127550 and lock them out 6 degrees retarded. This setup will have enough power to keep you happy for awhile and boost will only make you happier. Adding your vortech will give you even more top end, it would compliment the additional grunt down low nicely.

Keep your stock block on an engine stand in case you ever want to go back to stock. All you have to do is place an order with a FRPP dealer. Make sure to get the motor mount adapters and BBB head changing kit at the same time.

 

[BruceH]

BruceH, So are you saying to keep the Polished Vortech HO instead of getting a Polished Whipple? I thought the Whipple will give me instant Boost,where the Vortech HO brings the boost on slowly. Thanks for the info, I've been just waiting for available funds to do this and the time is very close,just debating on doing it early winter or waiting for it to warm up a little bit before I start on it.I think while the engine is out of the engine bay I'll finish the wire tuck even more. any other info would be great...

All I'm saying is that it will work well with a BBB. What is best for you may be something different. If you want instant power go with the whipple or better yet get a DOB that will let you use a 2.9 whipple. A 2.3 has limits.

I ran my BBB with a DOB and M122. Made 585rwhp with 7-8psi and e85. Depending on where you want to go that might be the best and least expensive option. It's more than enough power for the street. It was past my comfort level for wot at anything under highway speeds. I almost wrecked by blowing the tires off unintentionally while showing a vette that he had picked on the wrong Mustang. I crossed both lanes of traffic about 3 times getting control back and really thought I was hitting the curb sideways and rolling. By some miracle the car finally straightened out. I was far enough ahead of the vette that I didn't hit him during the ordeal.

The instant boost is fun but it's also worthless at times depending on how much there is. The BBB will give you some pretty good low end grunt, the Vortech would compliment it nicely and keep the power delivery more linear.

There are a lot of options and none of them are bad. It just depends on what you want to do. If you are set on the BBB then get it and drive it for awhile before deciding on what to do next. This is coming from someone who has had a Whipple, Paxton, Procharger, and DOB setup on the same car. They all have advantages and they all have things that aren't advantageous.

 

[MassMustang]

...The instant boost is fun but it's also worthless at times depending on how much there is. The BBB will give you some pretty good low end grunt, the Vortech would compliment it nicely and keep the power delivery more linear.

There are a lot of options and none of them are bad. It just depends on what you want to do. If you are set on the BBB then get it and drive it for awhile before deciding on what to do next. This is coming from someone who has had a Whipple, Paxton, Procharger, and DOB setup on the same car. They all have advantages and they all have things that aren't advantageous.

Just when I started waffling on my build plans, searching for 11-13 GT500s, Bruce pulled me back in with hopes and aspirations of big block and centri glory!

I'll start with the Novi 2200 and decide if I want to stroke my 3V or buy a B53 or B326 later on.

 

[loots06]

Great info in this thread. I picked up a stock bare block a while ago and finally dropped it off at the machine shop for assembly. I'll be using Wiseco pistons .020 over, Boss rods and a stock 4.6 crank. Compression should be just under 9.8:1.

 

[onehotpny]

BruceH Cool ,Thanks for the extra info, might just keep the Vortech HO and do the BBB and see how I like it, then I can always sell the Vortech if it isn't what i want after I drive it a good bit.. What size injectors should i go with by upgrading to a B53 block?

All I'm saying is that it will work well with a BBB. What is best for you may be something different. If you want instant power go with the whipple or better yet get a DOB that will let you use a 2.9 whipple. A 2.3 has limits.

I ran my BBB with a DOB and M122. Made 585rwhp with 7-8psi and e85. Depending on where you want to go that might be the best and least expensive option. It's more than enough power for the street. It was past my comfort level for wot at anything under highway speeds. I almost wrecked by blowing the tires off unintentionally while showing a vette that he had picked on the wrong Mustang. I crossed both lanes of traffic about 3 times getting control back and really thought I was hitting the curb sideways and rolling. By some miracle the car finally straightened out. I was far enough ahead of the vette that I didn't hit him during the ordeal.

The instant boost is fun but it's also worthless at times depending on how much there is. The BBB will give you some pretty good low end grunt, the Vortech would compliment it nicely and keep the power delivery more linear.

There are a lot of options and none of them are bad. It just depends on what you want to do. If you are set on the BBB then get it and drive it for awhile before deciding on what to do next. This is coming from someone who has had a Whipple, Paxton, Procharger, and DOB setup on the same car. They all have advantages and they all have things that aren't advantageous.