Might be go big or go home time on my '06

Midlife Crises

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2019
Posts
1,846
Reaction score
1,259
Location
Fairbanks, Alaska
Hey Cavero. There’s a lot of good information here and some pretty good suggestions. You know you need new cams. This is an opportunity to try a different set. New lash adjusters and followers are a must and a timing set with phasers is a good idea. I would bet metal did not get through the filter but it certainly went through the oil pump and that would bother me. I would have to at least look at the gears in the pump. I am a fan of mobile 1, 5-30 or 10-30 because it works for me. Weather you rebuild the motor or not depends on what you honestly will do with it. I would not supercharge the stock bottom end and I would avoid 7,000 rpm bursts. The way I play, it would come apart and I’d be searching for a block.
just a few thoughts.
 
Last edited:

GriffX

Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2017
Posts
513
Reaction score
171
FYI: Difference between a 5w30 and a 5w30 Ford oil is that the Ford oil is HTHS lowered. The HTHS value is almost as low as a 5w20. No idea why they do this.
 

JC SSP

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2022
Posts
1,058
Reaction score
450
Location
FL
My 05’ GT has 120k and uses 5w-30 full synthetic mobile 1 with factory ford filter. No issues so far but I know one day I will have to do chain, tensioners and followers etc.
 

GlassTop09

Senior Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Posts
1,141
Reaction score
525
Location
Farmington, NM
FYI: Difference between a 5w30 and a 5w30 Ford oil is that the Ford oil is HTHS lowered. The HTHS value is almost as low as a 5w20. No idea why they do this.
I would bet the farm that the Fed CAFE stds in place at the time of manufacture are a big factor in why Ford would do that...........

I've been using MC 5W-30 FS oil w\o issues since I bought my Stang back in 2017 w\ 139,439 mi on the clock (got 167,685 mi currently) & it says right on the bottle that this oil improves engine fuel economy (1 of the downsides to using high levels of HTHS additives in engine oils is reduction in fuel economy for increased wear protection).
 
Last edited:

Racer47

Doesn't have much to say
S197 Team Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Posts
1,065
Reaction score
324
Location
SE Wis
I'd say about $25k would be what I could justify.....

I hope you're right about the bearings, the oil analysis definitely supports it.............

Definitely going to be sticking w/ 10W-30 now...........

The bearings are fine...really they are.

10w30 is a bit thick for cold starts. You should use 5w30.

Seems like you are already set on rebuild and boost. This will be a lot more work and aggravation than most guys think. So start planning ahead. Who is going to build the engine? Are they reliable? Will they meet timelines and cost estimates? As for boost, I'd recommend getting a system from DOB. Who will be your tuner? Will he be reliable and available and provide updates as you run across drivability issues?

I did all my own work except for the short block and tuning (although I did collect a lot of data for the tuners) and it took years to get it all sorted out. Its not as easy as the internet makes it sound. I've got a stroker 302 3V, kenne bell, t56 and not one piece of stock suspension left. Plus 3 different throttle bodies, a couple clutches, 3 different tuners, 2 sets of injectors, fuel system upgrades, cooling and a lot more. If you are going to pay someone to do everything, it will get very expensive. That's how you spend 75k.

1697728432770.png
1697728655839.png

1697728706206.png

It was a ton of work but the car is wicked. I run high speed autox and over one 3 year span, I won everything that I entered. There is no way that the car would be like it is if I had to rely on some shop to do everything.

My main advice is be realistic. Its way harder, more expensive and much much more time consuming than it seems up front.
 
Last edited:

GlassTop09

Senior Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Posts
1,141
Reaction score
525
Location
Farmington, NM
Here is a chart I found provided below & have been using for approx 2 1\2 yrs to determine\judge the proper oil viscosity to run according to the known\perceived new\current engine bearing oil clearances by Driven Racing Oils Co (manufacturing high performance racing oils for high performance racing engines) as oil viscosities play a far more important role in engine performance AND engine reliability by properly supporting the crankshaft within the crank journal bearings to maintain as true a line bore center as possible to maintain crankshaft stresses under loads to a minimum, reducing friction so crank can spin as freely as it can under pressurized oil feed AND to reduce as much stress as possible on con rods, con rod bearings & crank journals to maintain as much reliability as possible so a racer can get more than 1 pass out of a high HP\TQ racing engine to reduce the costs of rebuilds..............so they follow this chart religiously......developed from thousands of hours formulations, lab testing & real world testing to know what works best for the application.

From looking at the given new bearing clearances given by Ford of this 4.6L 3V V8 & the normal oil operating temps incurred (up to 160*F), the specs according to this sheet is 0W-20, 5W-20 when the engine is new..........if you put any extra operating temp into the oil to get it above the 200*F mark, the specs call for 5W-30 or 10W-30 according to this chart.........mind you, this is using new bearing clearances of a new 4.6L 3V V8 coming off the showroom floor......running on an OEM tune calibration..........

Hope this can be of use to others........................

Driven Engine Oil to Main Bearing Clearance Chart.PNG
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Hey Cavero. There’s a lot of good information here and some pretty good suggestions. You know you need new cams. This is an opportunity to try a different set. New lash adjusters and followers are a must and a timing set with phasers is a good idea. I would bet metal did not get through the filter but it certainly went through the oil pump and that would bother me. I would have to at least look at the gears in the pump. I am a fan of mobile 1, 5-30 or 10-30 because it works for me. Weather you rebuild the motor or not depends on what you honestly will do with it. I would not supercharge the stock bottom end and I would avoid 7,000 rpm bursts. The way I play, it would come apart and I’d be searching for a block.
just a few thoughts.
Yeah, I hear ya on trying something new. Certainly worth lookin at. Would want to know more about the 127500's in terms of idle and low RPM driveability though. I've really enjoyed the 127400's, and as far as idle goes, I liked how they idle similar to stock in terms of smoothness. I was talkin with my shop about components we'd replace, definitely cams, followers, probably timing chain guides and tensioners (might as well while you're in there). The phasers...probably...but not sure if we have to. They're Livernois units with the internal limiters and were put in at the same time of the cams, so 26k mi on them.

Definitely if I end up on the supercharger route, it'd be with a full rebuild. So when you're saying avoid 7k RPM bursts, that's even N/A?
The bearings are fine...really they are.

10w30 is a bit thick for cold starts. You should use 5w30.

Seems like you are already set on rebuild and boost. This will be a lot more work and aggravation than most guys think. So start planning ahead. Who is going to build the engine? Are they reliable? Will they meet timelines and cost estimates? As for boost, I'd recommend getting a system from DOB. Who will be your tuner? Will he be reliable and available and provide updates as you run across drivability issues?

I did all my own work except for the short block and tuning (although I did collect a lot of data for the tuners) and it took years to get it all sorted out. Its not as easy as the internet makes it sound. I've got a stroker 302 3V, kenne bell, t56 and not one piece of stock suspension left. Plus 3 different throttle bodies, a couple clutches, 3 different tuners, 2 sets of injectors, fuel system upgrades, cooling and a lot more. If you are going to pay someone to do everything, it will get very expensive. That's how you spend 75k.

View attachment 90869
View attachment 90870

View attachment 90871

It was a ton of work but the car is wicked. I run high speed autox and over one 3 year span, I won everything that I entered. There is no way that the car would be like it is if I had to rely on some shop to do everything.

My main advice is be realistic. Its way harder, more expensive and much much more time consuming than it seems up front.

That's a really clean lookin beast right there and the trophies definitely back it up :thumb2:

My bad, that was a typo on the oil -- it's 5W-30 I just put in it.

Yeah I'm really heavily leaning towards the boost -- I like the sound of the 3V and like the idea that everything computer-wise still just works w/o worrying about how to adapt everything for a coyote swap. That said, haven't ruled out anything yet. I'm still waiting on the engine shop to finish the quote for the rebuild and I'd be lucky to be driving the car again by springtime if I go that route. If I just get the cams/followers replaced, I'd probably be back on the road by Thanksgiving. 5.0 swap? I'd probably just start driving it again until all the parts/harnesses came in. Time's a factor, especially when I'm sitting in limbo waiting.

Those are all great questions BTW, I think anyone looking to do any kind of engine work should be askin these. Luckily I'm all set on this front. So as far as the engine builder goes, they're a place that my performance shop has been using for years, yep very reliable and does very solid work. They're known well enough in the area that there's usually a pretty big waitlist to get a rebuild done (they said about 3 months), but my shop's never had a problem with them as far as not finishing a job or doing bad work. The tune'll be done by the performance shop, who're the ones that did my dyno tune for the cams & intake, and the car has run fantastic up until this. They do a lot of supercharged builds, so I'm not worried on that front. And they've done free updates for me in the past on my dyno tune, anything from changing tire revs/mi, trying to get the cruise control to work (6 spd messes w/ it), or when the engine was running rich on cold starts. On the last of those, they had me leave the car with them so they could change parameters, start it cold, drive, repeat -- all w/o charging any extra because it was just part of getting the dyno tune right.

But yeah having the shop do all of this is gonna cost me. I'll do suspension work, brakes, changing a radiator, etc, but when it comes to engine internals I don't trust myself.
 

Racer47

Doesn't have much to say
S197 Team Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Posts
1,065
Reaction score
324
Location
SE Wis
I agree with the 7000 rpm. I stick to 6500 rpm max. The cost of damage/wear versus the benefit of 7000 rpm isn't worth it to me.

Another option to consider is running a Paxton or Vortech belt driven supercharger at 7 psi. Its much easier to install than a KB or Whipple. That would put you around 450+ whp and it could run with the stock block. You could get that combo on the road faster and cheaper.

Yet another route would be to just buy my car. I've been considering moving on to a new project. If you're interested pm me. 06 GT premium. 38k miles. Always garaged. Never a daily. Fully sorted, very fast and reliable. $29k includes all extra parts like race wheels & tires, springs, swaybars and a lot more, all negotiable.
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Finally got the quote back for the rebuild, the number's right in line with where I thought it'd be (their top of the head figure + inflation). Strongly leaning this way. They'd get started on it in January, so I might have the car back by end of March/April timeframe. Wanted to get a couple opinions though:

Looking at Comp Cams 127450's since the ultimate plan is to put a blower on it. Bad idea if I'm staying N/A until next year (when I recoup the funds to for a blower)? They're running a follow up quote to do a blower at the same time but I'm thinking worst case if it's out of my budget to do the whole shebang this year.

Should I keep driving the car like it is for the time being? (next month or so).

Rebuild quote will include any parts that need replacing (like followers), as well as Manley forged pistons & rods, all ARP studs/bolts, new Melling Oil Pump, Cloyes Complete Timing Chain and Gear Set, MMR Billet Reluctor Wheel & Crank Gear. Anything that sticks out as missing?
 

eighty6gt

forum member
Joined
May 9, 2011
Posts
4,299
Reaction score
405
Drop some frpp hot rod cams in that engine, drive the heck out of the car and enjoy life. Especially before next fall!
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Sorry been kinda silent on this for the last month almost . Had been going back and forth w/ the shop on quotes and finally settled on it. Going w/ the forged rebuild w/ Comp Cams 127450's (blower cams) while staying N/A this year. Shop tells me the cam will run fine, it might have a little more chop than the 127400's but it'll still be just as driveable and will even give me a little more power w/ the extra lift and duration.

I was really close to going all-in and getting the Vortech this year but price was a little more than I was willing to do all at once. I'm going to keep saving and come back at it next year. Plus that gives me more time to get better versed on superchargers anyway.
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Dropped it off on Friday morning, stopped by the shop Saturday morning and got there just in time to see a motorectomy.



1000007654.jpg

1000007657.jpg
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Was talking with the shop about some things, we're probably looking at a new set of motor mounts and a new harmonic balancer. Right now it's a UDP, so it'd end up underdriving the blower. I mentioned I still have the stocker in a box in my garage, but they said I should think about getting a nicer I've anyway since it's going to be driving a supercharger eventually
 

Racer47

Doesn't have much to say
S197 Team Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Posts
1,065
Reaction score
324
Location
SE Wis
Get an ATI balancer, BMR mounts, replace all belt idler and tensioner bearings (or new pulleys), new oil pump, get some new valve covers just for looks.
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Thanks! I'll check ATI out :thumb2:

The BMR mounts look pretty similar to the Steeda mounts I have now. The concern the shop has w/ the steeda ones is as soon as you take the bolt out, the bottom of the mount just falls into the K-member. Which I definitley remember having to deal with installing them (think I used painters tape to hold them together long enough to get the bolt through). And they're wondering how that's going to work wth the long tubes - mainly how do you hold the bolt to tighten the nut down if you can't get at it(I didn't have to deal with that when I put them in - was still stock headers at the time). They're thinking about something with a stud. But we'll see, that was just their thought as they were taking it all out.

New oil pump is definitely part of the rebuild (a Melling unit, already priced into it). I'll talk to them about the bearings/pulleys.

Yeah, I was thinking about the valve covers too. Maybe finally pull the trigger on the blue Ford Racing ones. I'm going to be losing the Ford Racing intake plenum anyway (going back to stock for more midrange)
 

DieHarder

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2019
Posts
1,464
Reaction score
756
Thanks! I'll check ATI out :thumb2:

The BMR mounts look pretty similar to the Steeda mounts I have now. The concern the shop has w/ the steeda ones is as soon as you take the bolt out, the bottom of the mount just falls into the K-member. Which I definitley remember having to deal with installing them (think I used painters tape to hold them together long enough to get the bolt through). And they're wondering how that's going to work wth the long tubes - mainly how do you hold the bolt to tighten the nut down if you can't get at it(I didn't have to deal with that when I put them in - was still stock headers at the time). They're thinking about something with a stud. But we'll see, that was just their thought as they were taking it all out.

New oil pump is definitely part of the rebuild (a Melling unit, already priced into it). I'll talk to them about the bearings/pulleys.

Yeah, I was thinking about the valve covers too. Maybe finally pull the trigger on the blue Ford Racing ones. I'm going to be losing the Ford Racing intake plenum anyway (going back to stock for more midrange)

Agree on the Steeda mounts. I also used painters tape and remember leaning over and contorting my arm to get a stubby wrench on the bottom to tighten it down. Probably not an issue if I had a lift or a friend to help. Once in however never a worry since and really needed the 3/4" drop for the supercharger air tube to clear the strut bar.

IMG_0208.jpg
 

moooosestang

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Posts
261
Reaction score
94
Location
Alachua, fl
Get oem idlers or stake the inside lip so the pulley can't fly off the bearing! I ended up getting an oem idler after this happened and my 100mm idler from whipple didn't have a lip on the inside edge so i staked that mother after changing the bearing just like you would a castle nut on an AR-15. I had removed the 100mm idler to run the rpm belt and got a cheap 90mm off rockauto. that idler is still rolling down hwy 441 in north central florida. steeda motor mounts are weird. So if you need to lift the motor up you have to unbolt the motor mount from the frame or it will fall apart?idlergone.jpg
 

moooosestang

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2022
Posts
261
Reaction score
94
Location
Alachua, fl
Oem Ford.... 'semi synthetic'..... eng oil is fubar. It's typ 3% synthetic...and 97% dino oil. A full 100% synthetic oil, and in 0W-30 or 5W-30 is optimum. When I used to use Ford semi synthetic 5W-20 eng oil, my catch can would be full to the top in a few months. It resembled a 'chocolate shake'. Apparently it's a mixture of gasoline, eng oil, and condensation. Once I switched to 100% synthetic RP-HPS in 5W-30, no more choc shake. The catch can barely had any oil in it..... and it was clean. Since switched to Mobil-1....in 100% synthetic in either 0W-20, or 5W-20, or 5W-30, or 0W-30, same deal, no more choc shake.

IMO, both dino oil and also ..'semi synthetic' are just junk, and to be avoided.
I've been using royal purple 10w30 HPS in my SC'd 06 for years. Since i don't start the car below 50F I didn't see any reason to use 5w30. 10w30 should have a slightly higher film strength since it starts life as a 10 weight oil. I have major traction issues below 50F so i just don't drive the car when it gets that cold here in florida. Saw a few youtube videos claiming 5w20 leads to premature cam phaser failures. It wouldn't surprise me.
 

cavero

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
677
Reaction score
100
Location
NoVA
Been a little overdue for an update. Engine shop finally got the engine torn down, got a list of parts together and sent me an invoice for the next $$$ installment so they can order them. The parts list is growing (as is the bill... surprise) Total list now includes:

Comp Cams XFI SPR Modular 3V Camshafts
Rocker Arms, Roller, OHC Shaft Mounting Style, Steel, Lash Adjusters, Ford, Set of 24
ARP Main Studs
ARP Side Bolts 9MM
Manely Connecting Rods
Manley Pistons 14cc
Melling Oil Pump 3V
Clevite Rod Bearings
Clevite Main Bearings
Lower Gasket Set
Fel Pro Timing Cover Gasket Set
Fel Pro Head Gasket Set
ARP Head Studs
Cloyes Complete Timing Chain and Gear Set with tensioners, solenoids, and water pump
MMR Billet Reluctor Wheel
MMR Billet Crank Gear
Bronze Valve Guides
Total Seal Piston Rings
Expansion Plug Kit - Windsor
Wix Oil Filter
Driven BR Oil

As they went through it they said they saw enough wear on the bearings and the valve guides to make it a wise choice to replace all that now. An extra $400 (valve guides are expensive apparently) is a small price to pay in the scope of the work here to get another 100k out of this block.

Talked to the main shop and we're going to pull the trigger on the valve covers and the ATI balancer. They have a few other items they're looking into that they want to run by me.
 

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top