Might be go big or go home time on my '06

[Dino Dino Bambino]

I've been doing a lot of reading but can't seem to find an answer: for a centri, when does the boost come in? I know it won't make hardly any at low RPM, but when do you start feeling it? Around 3000 RPM? (looking at a air-to-water intercooled Vortech V3 HO tuner kit, if that helps).

Here's what I found for the Paxton Novi 2200SL HO set up (same as Vortech V3 HO):

3000rpm: 2.1psi
3500rpm: 2.9psi
4000rpm: 3.8psi
4500rpm: 4.8psi
5000rpm: 5.8psi
5500rpm: 7.0psi
6000rpm: 8.7psi
6500rpm: 10.3psi
6700rpm: 11.0psi

These are the boost numbers for the Edelbrock E-Force Stage 1 for comparison:

3000rpm: 5.5psi
3500rpm: 5.6psi
4000rpm: 5.7psi
4500rpm: 5.7psi
5000rpm: 5.9psi
5500rpm: 6.9psi
6000rpm: 7.9psi
6500rpm: 8.9psi

You'll see that the centrifugal supercharger only outperforms the positive displacement unit above 5500rpm. It therefore isn't surprising that peak torque with a centri comes at much higher rpm.

 

[GriffX]

My small Mercedes Eaton is doing 6 psi at 3000 and increases to 7.5 psi at 5500. The Eaton curve above looks a bit like belt slip. The Roots, Vortech and turbos do not compress air, they just accelerates it. The boost comes from the restriction at the engine. AFAIK a Kenny Bell compresses air internally.

 

[FredB66]

Here's what I found for the Paxton Novi 2200SL HO set up (same as Vortech V3 HO):

The Vortech V3 is equivalent to a Paxton Novi 1200. The 2200 is a larger unit.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

The Vortech V3 is equivalent to a Paxton Novi 1200. The 2200 is a larger unit.

That'll be the non-intercooled version shown here with a maximum boost of 8psi:

2005-10 Mustang GT Vortech Black Out Supercharger V3 Non Intercooled Brenspeed Package

2005-10 Mustang GT Vortech Black Out Supercharger V3 Non Intercooled Brenspeed Package - If you have a 2008 Mustang you could have 1 of 2 spark plug designs. This article will make it easy for you to decide which one you have...

www.brenspeed.com

It's the same as the Paxton Novi 1200 Throwback package:

*IN STOCK* Mustang GT Paxton NOVI 1200 SL Supercharger "Throwback" Brenspeed Package (05-10)

*IN STOCK* Mustang GT Paxton NOVI 1200 SL Supercharger "Throwback" Brenspeed Package (05-10) - If you have a 2008 Mustang you could have 1 of 2 spark plug designs. This article will make it easy for you to decide which one you have...

www.brenspeed.com

There's also an intercooled HO version of the Vortech V3:

Mustang GT HIGH OUTPUT Vortech Supercharger V3 Brenspeed Package (05-10)

Mustang GT HIGH OUTPUT Vortech Supercharger V3 Brenspeed Package (05-10) - If you have a 2008 Mustang you could have 1 of 2 spark plug designs. This article will make it easy for you to decide which one you have. http://site.brenspeed.com/tech/DETERMINING_3V_SPARK_PLUG_DESIGN.pdf...

www.brenspeed.com

It's the same as the Paxton Novi 2200 HO:

Brenspeed 552HP Paxton NOVI 2200 SL Supercharger Package Satin (05-10)Mustang GT

Brenspeed 552HP Paxton NOVI 2200 SL Supercharger Package Satin (05-10)Mustang GT - If you have a 2008 Mustang you could have 1 of 2 spark plug designs. This article will make it easy for you to decide which one you have. http://site.brenspeed.com/tech/DETERMINING_3V_SPARK_PLUG_DESIGN.pdf...

www.brenspeed.com

 

[FredB66]

My bad, I was thinking V2

 

[FredB66]

Ok, I was still thinking that didn't sound right. From the Vortech website:

Novi 1200 = Vortech V-2 Si
Novi 1200SL = Vortech V-3 Si

The Novi 2200SL is a larger compressor with a 3.00" outlet capable of 27 psi. The V-3 Si has a 2.75" outlet and is capable of 22 psi. As best as I can tell, there isn't a direct Vortech equivalent to the 2200SL.

The HO kits utilize the same compressor with the primary difference being that they include an intercooler and a smaller pulley.

 

[Pentalab]

I get 5 psi from my small roush M90...right from idle to red line. Bam, instant boost.
The advantage of the PD blower is..... you get the instant TQ hit.
Couple that with the 5 speed auto....... mash the gas, it drops down gears, instant boost, then hang on for the ride.
I discovered that 2nd gear in the 5r5ss auto tranny is 14% lower vs the 5 speed manual.....and 16.5% lower in 3rd gear....vs the 5 speed manual.

 

[Midlife Crises]

You can play with the pulleys on a PD blower as well. Here is a R2300TVS with a 2 3/4” pulley and a stock diameter damper. Banging 4 gears the boost is largely controlled by the throttle position. Wide open is max airflow and the RPM is almost irrelevant. On this log zero PSI is about 14.5 or so and you can see 17 to 18 pounds above that while the pedal is on the floor.

 

[AHaze]

V1, V2, V3 refers to the gear drive section of a Vortech, not the size of the impeller and volute.
V1 is straight cut gears (noisy), externally oiled.
V2 is helical gears (quiet), externally oiled.
V3 is helical gears, self contained oiling.
For impeller size, IIRC:
Paxton 1200 = Vortech Si Trim.
Paxton 1500 = Vortech Ti Trim
Paxton 2200 SL = Vortech JT Trim

 

[JC SSP]

Interesting and should be a sticky.

I always knew both were centrifugal SC but didn’t know Paxton and Vortec were that similar.

FYI I am a Turbo and NOS guy but always wanted and SC.

 

[cavero]

My Vortech HO shows about 2-3 psi on an Autometer gauge at 3000 RPM using the pulley that came with the kit. If you spin it harder with an OD crank pulley or smaller blower pulley, it will start to make boost earlier as well as making more up top.
I went fairly minimal on extra gauges: wideband, boost and a Scangauge that I have set to display IAT, fuel pressure, fuel pump duty cycle and coolant temp. I've considered adding an oil pressure sensor for the Scangauge but likely won't unless I start running track days.

That's a good point, but what PSI can you start feeling the difference at? would it be 2-3?

 

[cavero]

I get 5 psi from my small roush M90...right from idle to red line. Bam, instant boost.
The advantage of the PD blower is..... you get the instant TQ hit.
Couple that with the 5 speed auto....... mash the gas, it drops down gears, instant boost, then hang on for the ride.
I discovered that 2nd gear in the 5r5ss auto tranny is 14% lower vs the 5 speed manual.....and 16.5% lower in 3rd gear....vs the 5 speed manual.

Yeah I'm still going between PD and centri myself. On one hand, all that low end power would be a ton of fun and wouldn't have to be worried about getting into the powerband before passing someone. But I drive my car year round, even in the rain in the middle of January (don't get much snow down here in VA) and I like the idea that it'll still be stock-like down low and easy to manage. I also like the idea that my wife won't have to worry about all that instant torque either. She's no slouch behind the wheel, but she doesn't drive the car often enough to get used to it. Plus I've been told the centri is easier on the engine in low RPMs.
And yet... it would kind of be disappointing to rev the engine up to 3500 RPM to really start having fun.

 

[cavero]

Interesting and should be a sticky.

I always knew both were centrifugal SC but didn’t know Paxton and Vortec were that similar.

FYI I am a Turbo and NOS guy but always wanted and SC.

So are they really just the same internals in a different casing?

 

[AHaze]

That's a good point, but what PSI can you start feeling the difference at? would it be 2-3?

I suppose that depends how well calibrated your butt dyno is.
Just to throw some rough numbers around, these cars put down about 150 RWHP at 3k RPM stock. If you add 2.5 PSI of manifold pressure above 14.7 PSI atmospheric, you'll get roughly 17% more power or 175ish RWHP.
I would think most people could tell the difference if they drove otherwise identical cars back to back but it isn't an earth shattering difference that low in the rev range. The real fun is between 4000 and 6500 RPM.

 

[Pentalab]

Yeah I'm still going between PD and centri myself. On one hand, all that low end power would be a ton of fun and wouldn't have to be worried about getting into the powerband before passing someone. But I drive my car year round, even in the rain in the middle of January (don't get much snow down here in VA) and I like the idea that it'll still be stock-like down low and easy to manage. I also like the idea that my wife won't have to worry about all that instant torque either. She's no slouch behind the wheel, but she doesn't drive the car often enough to get used to it. Plus I've been told the centri is easier on the engine in low RPMs.
And yet... it would kind of be disappointing to rev the engine up to 3500 RPM to really start having fun.

My wife is 69. She wouldn't even know there was a PD blower in the car. It runs on a vacuum. Unless u either mash the gas, or get the throttle to 80-90%, you won't be into boost. IE: I can get my foot into it pretty good, and keep the boost gauge below 0 psi...and it pulls hard. That's with LT's, twin 62mm TB, and a 94 tune. Want more, then mash it, instant boost...at any rpm. The last thing I wanted is to be driving on the hwy in OD, like 1500 rpm @ 50 mph, then have little to no boost when I put my foot into it...and have to downshift a bunch of gears.

No offense to the centri folks, but imo, a centri is like buying 1/2 a supercharger.

From Dino's prior post. Here's what I found for the Paxton Novi 2200SL HO set up (same as Vortech V3 HO):

3000rpm: 2.1psi
3500rpm: 2.9psi
4000rpm: 3.8psi
4500rpm: 4.8psi
5000rpm: 5.8psi
5500rpm: 7.0psi
6000rpm: 8.7psi
6500rpm: 10.3psi
6700rpm: 11.0psi

Notice between 3000 rpm and 6000 rpm, boost quadruples. At 1500 rpm, boost would only be .5 psi. And just .125 psi @ 750 rpm.
IE: boost is increasing to the square of the rpm ratio's. 6000/3000 = 2. 2 squared = 4 4 x 2.1 psi = 8.4 psi

Sure, the centri is easier on the engine at low rpms...... cuz it's not doing anything.
I have 5 psi, right from idle..... 700 rpm...... but only with gas mashed.
I can have it in 3rd gear in the auto...at a red light. Light turns green, mash it...shriek of rubber...and off we go.

 

[DieHarder]

When one has nothing better to do:

 

[Midlife Crises]

The Roots, Vortech and turbos do not compress air, they just accelerates it.

Centrifugal superchargers like the Vortech and turbos along with the twin screw do have an internal pressure ratio which makes them a compressor. The Roots positive displacement superchargers do not compress. Even the Eaton TVS technology is still a fixed displacement Roots at heart and just pumps air.
For drivability the torque produced by the PD blower is easy to control. You just open and close the throttle at the rate you want the power. If full power is not needed don’t go to full throttle.

 

[cavero]

Been a busy couple months, but getting back into this again. It was a tough decision but I'm going to go for a centrifugal s/c. Jumping back to the topic about the CMCV's, I talked to the shop about it, and they're not really worried about the opening schedule since the boost doesn't come in until 3K when the valves are wide open anyway.

We also spent some time looking into flex fuel controllers (would detect the ethanol content and respond accordinlgy) -- but it turned out that all it would do is up the fuel rate on this generation of car. It's apparently only on the '15 and up where it could integrate with the ECU to adjust the timing too for more power.

Also putting together a set of gauges I'm going to put in the car. Want to keep the look consistent w/ the interior, so looking at Sport-Comp gauges.

Oil pressure:
https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-oil-pressure-w-peak-warn-0-100-psi-stepper-motor-sport-comp.html

Coolant temperature -- my shop is advocating for this one, but I've got to ask them why. The gauge in the IUP cluster isn't an idiot gauge as far as I know. But if they have a good reason:
https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-wa...-warn-100-260-f-stepper-motor-sport-comp.html

Boost/Vaccuum: (yes not necessary but fun is the name of the game here)
https://www.autometer.com/2-boost-vac-30-in-hg-15-psi-fse-sport-comp.html

Wideband Air/Fuel:
(analog version): https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-analog-wideband-fse-sport-comp.html
(digital - probably the better one to have): https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-wideband-a-f-w-sensor-fse-sport-comp.html


Also looking at places to mount them. First and foremost is the Saleen gauge pod. Been a big fan ever since the S-281 came out



Might also do a vent gauge next to the door



and if I end up doing all 4 gauges, I was thinking about putting it on the steering column. Seemed like it'd have to be a fabrication job, but I found this one online:

https://www.ozgaugepods.com/product-page/2005-09-ford-mustang-column-upper-trim-gauge-pod.

 

[Pentalab]

Dunno if SOS still makes their 2 and 3 gauge pods that are mounted to a new oem A pillar. Mine has 3 x gauges. I have the Roush boost gauge in the far left vent. Boost gauge is illuminated. You can also put 3 x gauges in the center of the dash, with the boss 302 center gauge pods. 2 x more gauges can be located where the overhead map lights are. Forget who made that assy.

 

[cavero]

Yep, I've been looking for the SOS pillars, but the only result that comes up is Brenspeed, and while the thumbnail makes it look like they have it, no joy when you actually go to their site. I might have to keep my eyes peeled for one on eBay, etc.

Don't suppose you'd have any pics of gauges up by the map lights? I've been looking but can't seem to find any.


I also saw these, definitely like the look, but then you lose the double DIN option (was thinking about a android auto head unit one of these days)