Track guru's need help with brake fluid

[DUFUS]

I went with the Motive thingey with the aluminum adapter. So far, so good. I don't even fill it with brake fluid (mindful of the mess that could result IF something went wrong), I use it only for the pressure, and fill (reservoir)/bleed/release/repeat as needed. So, some time is wasted there, but no worries. Nothing against speed bleeders, in fact, I might not even have known of their existence at the time. I'm a newbie.

 

[Captain_Stangin']

I actually was told that my speed bleeders were dangerous and would fail, I was also told by the same person that my steering knuckles would break when I ran r-compounds......

 

[TheKurgan]

Speed Bleeders: I've used both the Russel and the Earls, and while I prefer the Russel piece, I honestly have a hard time figuring out WHAT could fail in the manner described. On the Earls' design, the bottom portion of the bleeder, the conical sealing piece, is spring loaded away from the rest of the bleeder screw, and if properly tightened (not loose, that would allow the fluid to lift the plunger and exit the bleeder, but also not over-tightened, which could deform the sealing surface), there's just no way that what was described could possibly happen. With the Russel design, the exterior of the bleed screw is one-piece, and looks just like a stocker. Internally, there is a spring-loaded check ball acting as a one-way valve. Again, there is no moving part to fail, and cause the described leak.

The only things I can think of that would create the described failure would be improper torque (deformed or not tight) or debris wedged between the bleeder screw and the caliper right in the cone-seat area. If either design failed in the valving somehow, it would still seal tight, but would lose it's one-way functionality. Either way, it sounds like operator error to me.

PS: Yes, I use them, and will continue to use them, and have had NO brake issues on track. I have, however, seen lots of screwed up bleeds done in the paddock resulting in a spongy pedal out on track. Speed bleeders mean never having to say "up/open/down/closed" again...

PPS: I'm also trying to figure out exactly how nobody noticed the falling pedal with a leaking bleeder. ANY leak in a hydraulic system will let the pedal start to fall under pressure, and should be thing one that you check before pulling out after service...

Yeah, you're right. I made the whole thing up.

 

[TheKurgan]

If you feel like sending them my way, I wouldn't mind dissecting them..

Tell ya what. When I go to switch out my brakes for my next track event, I'll find out which one is failing(I actually think I had 2 that went bad). I'll take a video of it spewing fluid, then I'll get in touch with you and send it your way.

 

[Vapour Trails]

The only things I can think of that would create the described failure would be improper torque (deformed or not tight) or debris wedged between the bleeder screw and the caliper right in the cone-seat area. If either design failed in the valving somehow, it would still seal tight, but would lose it's one-way functionality. Either way, it sounds like operator error to me.

Zactly. Properly used, they are no different than a regular bleed screw when torqued to spec. A loose bleeder screw of any kind is dangerous. The fact that the brakes were bled and then there was an immediate problem, points to a speed bleeder that was never properly torqued.

If you changed a wheel, drove 2 miles and the wheel fell off, would you blame the lug nuts or the installer?

 

[Philostang]

Make sure you get the one with the aluminum adapter, I got the 'standard' plastic one by mistake, fit was a little sloppy but decided to just use it anyway. It deformed and blew brake fluid ALL OVER the place..I put my speed bleeders back in after that.

Also worth noting is I wasn't able to use the Motive with the speed bleeders, the 10-15psi used by the motive isn't enough to overcome the check springs.

Just as a heads up, there are two basic Motive Power Bleeders for Mustangs that one might get mixed up for our cars, #0117 and #0118. The link provided takes you to #0117, which is the wrong one for our cars (the 3-tab 2" adapter). You should be getting #0118 (with the 3-tab 1-7/8" adapter). I haven't used them, but I plan to soon, so I looked it up on Motive's site.

As for the speed bleeders, I tried them (Speed Bleeder brand) on Stoptech calipers without success. Mine didn't "fail" they just didn't seem correct for that application (the part # was a generic one that's supposed to apply to several calipers). Though I ordered the right part number (double checked multiple times), the taper on them was slightly off (when compared to the original Stoptech bleeders) so they weren't seating correctly even when cranked down pretty hard. I suspect that this allowed fluid to leak under pressure and head right into the bleed port. Here's their pic of the scheme:

I might still have them around. At any rate, it's not hard to see how these would "fail" if the seat wasn't properly sealing. But that's not really any different than the type of failure one would get with a conventional bleeder, no? With the Speed Bleeder design the fluid leaking past the seat has an easy path to go out the port.

Best,
-j

 

[DusterRT]

Just as a heads up, there are two basic Motive Power Bleeders for Mustangs that one might get mixed up for our cars, #0117 and #0118. The link provided takes you to #0117, which is the wrong one for our cars (the 3-tab 2" adapter). You should be getting #0118 (with the 3-tab 1-7/8" adapter). I haven't used them, but I plan to soon, so I looked it up on Motive's site.

You know, it's funny. I got mine from Apex, and they had a note on the pace specifically stating the 0108 model was for 2005+ Mustangs. So, I bought it. Now that I look at the page, they've added a note saying, "NOTE: If you have a Ford Mustang Model Year 2006+, the 1108 tends to pop off around 5psi. Please use adapter 1118 which has the metal adapter."

http://www.apexperformance.net/CartGenie/prod-1028.htm

 

[Philostang]

Yeah, it doesn't help that Motive's part number scheme is confusing. They have "kit" numbers and "adapter" numbers that are similar. They also have their basic units (Red Label) and their upgraded ones (Black Label). If you get the Black Label power bleeder (part #0118), then it has the aluminum adapter (part #1118). On their website for the Black Label kit they say, "This kit includes adapter 1118." On their page for the 0117, they warn "Mustangs 2005 and up will need 0118."

I don't know what Apex was smoking when they posted their info, but kit part #0108 is listed as a GM unit on Motive's own site. They even specifically warn on the #0108 page, "Note: If you are looking for the 2005+ Mustang bleeder kit please order SKU 0118." My guess is that at one point that kit was being marketed as appropriate for the 2005+ Mustangs, and then later they realized it wasn't fitting correctly and made a change. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if some early folks got caught out on the mess.

Best,
-j

 

[DUFUS]

Oops.. Sorry for the link to the incorrect Motive part #. I remember being somewhat confused by their numbering scheme, so I verified/double checked with LPI (Apex didn't return my call, oh well) before I ordered awhile back, but posted the wrong model as an example.

 

[ArizonaGT]

Also used both, and now only use the Russell ones.
I've had some of the Earl's ones get stuck shut so they can't pump out. Never had one fail where they cause a system leak.

The Russell design is more robust than the Earl's design, IMO.

Speed Bleeders: I've used both the Russel and the Earls, and while I prefer the Russel piece, I honestly have a hard time figuring out WHAT could fail in the manner described. On the Earls' design, the bottom portion of the bleeder, the conical sealing piece, is spring loaded away from the rest of the bleeder screw, and if properly tightened (not loose, that would allow the fluid to lift the plunger and exit the bleeder, but also not over-tightened, which could deform the sealing surface), there's just no way that what was described could possibly happen. With the Russel design, the exterior of the bleed screw is one-piece, and looks just like a stocker. Internally, there is a spring-loaded check ball acting as a one-way valve. Again, there is no moving part to fail, and cause the described leak.

The only things I can think of that would create the described failure would be improper torque (deformed or not tight) or debris wedged between the bleeder screw and the caliper right in the cone-seat area. If either design failed in the valving somehow, it would still seal tight, but would lose it's one-way functionality. Either way, it sounds like operator error to me.

PS: Yes, I use them, and will continue to use them, and have had NO brake issues on track. I have, however, seen lots of screwed up bleeds done in the paddock resulting in a spongy pedal out on track. Speed bleeders mean never having to say "up/open/down/closed" again...

PPS: I'm also trying to figure out exactly how nobody noticed the falling pedal with a leaking bleeder. ANY leak in a hydraulic system will let the pedal start to fall under pressure, and should be thing one that you check before pulling out after service...

 

[firefighterhill]

Great info guys, Ive been wanting to get speed bleeders.