Tsb 11-07-07

Mishri

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The only problem is the auto's suck w/o a tune. or i would have considered leaving it stock for a couple of years ;)

and @popeye wtf? leave a vehicle stock? do you even own a car? oh sure, go buy a used 2011? that's the only 5.0L dohc 4v v8 with ti-vct out there.. :p

We are still operating under the idea that bolt-on modification shouldn't hurt the engine unless there is a manufacturing defect. I thought I had read more like 10 different accounts of the #8 cyl issue but they might have just been multiple boards with the same person posting. It's still too new of an issue to isloate though, since like Rob72 said, one tuner said they left factory knock settings and someone using their tune blew up. so perhaps we still don't know whats going on. So far the only thing I've seen that is consistent is that people it's only pepole using a 93 octane tune has anyone heard of anyone on a 91 or 87 tune with the issue?

My main arguement here is, I don't believe this is a you modified it so you it's your fault thing. I believe we are seeing an engine defect of some sort, since clearly the engine is capable of handling 200+whp over stock.

And yes, this is a minority of cars, but if that minority are made with a defect they should be covered under warranty because the tune shouldn't have caused the problem without the defect. That would also explain why it's a minority and not a common thing.

either that or all these jokers are putting in 87 octane with their 93 tunes :p

@KJGT they know they cant get more power out of them, look at the BOSS, I doubt it takes much more money to manufacture the intake/heads/cams than it would for our cars if they were mass produced on the same scale. There are things to consider other than horsepower, emissions, fuel mileage, and octane, getting 30whp typically means going from 87 to 93. They'll throw a super charger on your car and warranty it for 3 years 36,000 miles, they know it can handle the power.
 
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KJGT

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@KJGT they know they cant get more power out of them, look at the BOSS, I doubt it takes much more money to manufacture the intake/heads/cams than it would for our cars if they were mass produced on the same scale. There are things to consider other than horsepower, emissions, fuel mileage, and octane, getting 30whp typically means going from 87 to 93. They'll throw a super charger on your car and warranty it for 3 years 36,000 miles, they know it can handle the power.

IMO a ittle extra HP up top isnt the issue, its trying to get more bottom end and beating the pistons to death under high load near peak torque. The SCT base tune added 5 degrees everywhere, take that and take a little knock sensor sensitivity or limit how much timing it can pull -then give a guy a stick shift that thinks its OK to floor it and keep it floored at 4000rpm in 5th gear. You can go ahead and blame it on Ford but the same thing was happening with crap tunes on LS1 cars 12 years ago so this is nothing new. I was making 500rwhp with a LS1 in 1999 and driving the car every day with a procharger with no issues and others were breaking #7 ring lands on stock cars with a tune and the usual bolt ons.

Is it possible there is a hot spot causing a problem? Sure, thats the issue with LS engines. Until you start pushing it to the edge who knows how long the engine will last if you keep your hands off it. Time will tell.

Boss has better pistons, rods, cams, valvesprings, intake etc. Sure it doesnt take much more money, just like it doesnt take much more money to pull the engine and put those parts in yourself. If you want 550hp with a full factory warranty pick up a used low mile 2010-2011 GT500, I'm sure some people spend more than what a GT500 costs modding their GT.

The warranty FRPP gives you with the 525hp blowers is not the factory powertrain coverage, its either Ford's ESP or aftermarket. Just like Roush and edelbrock offers. Warranty is also not available on automatic cars.

Leave the car stock, dont worry about it. Sure the auto cars are kinda blah stock but they still run decent ETs at the track. Some light wheels tires and pulling the seats out would probably net the same ETs as a tune and you can retain your warranty. What anyone 'thinks' the new 5.0 should handle is irrelevant. If 100% stock cars start failing then the people with no mods will get them fixed under warranty as they should. And the people with mods will not (if they get caught anyhow), thats just the way it is..
 
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popeye

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The only problem is the auto's suck w/o a tune. or i would have considered leaving it stock for a couple of years ;)

and @popeye wtf? leave a vehicle stock? do you even own a car? oh sure, go buy a used 2011? that's the only 5.0L dohc 4v v8 with ti-vct out there.. :p

We are still operating under the idea that bolt-on modification shouldn't hurt the engine unless there is a manufacturing defect. I thought I had read more like 10 different accounts of the #8 cyl issue but they might have just been multiple boards with the same person posting. It's still too new of an issue to isloate though, since like Rob72 said, one tuner said they left factory knock settings and someone using their tune blew up. so perhaps we still don't know whats going on. So far the only thing I've seen that is consistent is that people it's only pepole using a 93 octane tune has anyone heard of anyone on a 91 or 87 tune with the issue?

My main arguement here is, I don't believe this is a you modified it so you it's your fault thing. I believe we are seeing an engine defect of some sort, since clearly the engine is capable of handling 200+whp over stock.

And yes, this is a minority of cars, but if that minority are made with a defect they should be covered under warranty because the tune shouldn't have caused the problem without the defect. That would also explain why it's a minority and not a common thing.

either that or all these jokers are putting in 87 octane with their 93 tunes :p

@KJGT they know they cant get more power out of them, look at the BOSS, I doubt it takes much more money to manufacture the intake/heads/cams than it would for our cars if they were mass produced on the same scale. There are things to consider other than horsepower, emissions, fuel mileage, and octane, getting 30whp typically means going from 87 to 93. They'll throw a super charger on your car and warranty it for 3 years 36,000 miles, they know it can handle the power.
You completely missed my point. If this Tb even remotely concerns someone leave a car stock or buy something out of warranty. There are 2011's with almost 2 years on them coming out of warranty or close to it.
As far as leaving my vehicles stock. My 05 v6 was so far removed from stock you could barely tell it was an 05. My 2011 is well on its way. WELL ON ITS WAY.
 

BAKnBLK2010

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You completely missed my point. If this Tb even remotely concerns someone leave a car stock or buy something out of warranty. There are 2011's with almost 2 years on them coming out of warranty or close to it.
As far as leaving my vehicles stock. My 05 v6 was so far removed from stock you could barely tell it was an 05. My 2011 is well on its way. WELL ON ITS WAY.


The 2011's are just now reaching the 1 year old mark not 2 years old and last time I checked my car had a 5 year 60,000 mile powertrain warranty. You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about so please quit posting. :rant:
 

19COBRA93

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I think April of '10 was the very first 2011's to hit the streets. So even the very first ones should be just older than 1 year old.
 

Rob72

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I thought it was interesting that the only difference between the Boss and Coyote rings is that the top ring on the Boss has a spray plasma inlay.
 

WTFchuck

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so why haven't the "tuners" popped there head in any threads on any of the forums with a possible explanation of the #8 poppin... odd
 

Bmr4life

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so why haven't the "tuners" popped there head in any threads on any of the forums with a possible explanation of the #8 poppin... odd

They have.


Also, people seem to keep missing this. There has been one report of someone with the FRPP tune whose #8 popped. Car had 20k miles on it and they replaced the entire engine under warranty & the dealer re-installed the tune on the new engine. There are several posts from the owner on another forum.
 
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Bmr4life

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None of them think its the tune, but some admitted to touching the knock sensor settings. Lund never said they did, but they did mail out safer tunes to their buyers. Bama said they adjusted the knock sensor settings for a two week window of tunes and have since sent out replacements. Brenspeed never touched it and haven't changed what they do.

Here, I've read all the post in this thread. The major tuners all posted in there.
 
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Seer

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I'm beginning to think this was more of a job 1 design flaw with a combination of some inexperienced tuners. Seems like no one from job 2 is talking about popping #8, tune or not.
 

Bmr4life

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I'm beginning to think this was more of a job 1 design flaw with a combination of some inexperienced tuners. Seems like no one from job 2 is talking about popping #8, tune or not.

job 2 is any car built after 8/16/2010
 

WTFchuck

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^^ hopin thats the case mine was built in end of oct begining of nov, currently deployed though so i can't check out my build date. how can i find out if my car is a "job 2"
 

Bmr4life

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^^ hopin thats the case mine was built in end of oct begining of nov, currently deployed though so i can't check out my build date. how can i find out if my car is a "job 2"

Vin number, door jam, window sticker. If you have your vin number, you can view your window sticker online. Like I posted earlier, any car after 8/16/2010 is job 2. However, I think I read about a job 2 car having the #8 issue. I've been on so many forums and can't remember where I think I saw that.
 

Enitalp

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Warranty void on 2011+

Hi,

I heard by 2 dealers here in Canada (at least) that every dealer received a note from ford, asking every dealer to void all the warranty on any 2011+ that had a tune, even if you return it to stock, they have a way to find out.

Anyone heard it ?
 

orangensaft

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This is all I found. As for the actual TSB, I couldn't locate it on any site other than message boards.

I'm sure someone out there can find it.


Ford issued a TSB today for F-150 and Mustang vehicles with the 5.0 L V-8 telling dealers to watch for engine modifications.

The TSB includes pictures of pistons damaged by aftermarket tuners, very similar format to the Ecoboost TSB, along with a flow chart indicating when the dealer should cancel the warranty.

The flow chart does show that the failure must have been caused by the modification in order to cancel the warranty, so same as always - just be aware that Ford has provided the dealers with a very specific list (including detailed pictures) of what to look for to find tuned engines.


Here's the text of the TSB (#11-7-7) - note that there are pictures and diagrams in the actual TSB that aren't shown here.

ISSUE:

Some 2011 F-150 and 2011-2012 Mustang vehicles equipped with 5.0L engine may have unauthorized modifications to the powertrain hardware and/or calibration which may result in exceeding component design limits. Such modifications could cause damage to the powertrain and/or void the factory powertrain warranty.
ACTION:

Follow the Service Guidelines.
SERVICE GUIDELINES



Inform owners that the current 5.0L calibrations adjust fuel and spark settings for maximum performance with production hardware, while protecting the engine over a wide range of operating conditions. This includes a knock sensor calibration enabling optimized performance based on fuel grade usage see Owner's Guide for details. Aftermarket hardware and calibrations risk damage to the engine.
Unauthorized calibration modifications may or may not be detectable using standard tools Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS), Portable Diagnostic Software (PDS), NGS+ VCM. Changes can be made to the calibration and flashed to the powertrain control module (PCM) through the on-board diagnostics (OBD) port. Physical modifications to the hardware may or may not be present. If aftermarket power/torque-increasing modifications are suspected, care should be taken to record and store the following items: Permanent diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs), pending DTCs, freeze frame data, mode 6 and mode 9 data. The data should be printed and attached to the repair order for later reference.
The DTCs, freeze frame data, mode 6 and 9 data can be obtained by using the IDS, PDS or NGS+VCM under tool box selection. The powertrain tab will provide the OBD test modes tab and mode 6 and 9 data selection after the vehicle has been identified.
Attempting to increase the engine output via recalibrating the PCM may result in poor drivability, DTCs, or component failures. A partial list of calibration induced component failures is given below: Excessive Cylinder Pressure And Temperature


  • Piston damage
  • Spark over-advanced (knock-induced damage)
  • Insufficient enrichment
  • Catalyst damage
Increased RPM Limit/Overspeed



  • Piston damage
  • Connecting rod damage
  • Oil pump damage
  • Catalyst damage
  • Clutch damage
Knock Sensor Calibration Changes



  • Piston and/or ring damage due to improper knock control
Hardware Modifications:







The following list contains items that are frequently modified in an effort to increase the engines torque/power output. Modifying these items may, or may not improve the performance, but can lead to drivability issues, DTCs and possibly component failures:
  • Air induction system (air box, air filter, zip tube)
  • Super chargers
  • Nitrous oxide systems
  • Throttle bodies
  • Exhaust air path/system
Review Engine Damage:







Common failures associated with unauthorized modifications have included:
  • DTCs present indicating cylinder misfires (P0300 - P0308)
  • Cylinder/piston damage resulting in a misfire, low compression, noise
  • Unusual Clutch wear/damage
  • Piston damage - light knock (Figure 1)
  • Piston damage - heavy knock (Figure 2)
  • Evaluation Guidelines Chart (Figure 3)
 

r.barn

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Hi,

I heard by 2 dealers here in Canada (at least) that every dealer received a note from ford, asking every dealer to void all the warranty on any 2011+ that had a tune, even if you return it to stock, they have a way to find out.

Anyone heard it ?


Yes, there have been a good many engine failures. Some related to the tune, some not. Ford is drawing a line in the sand. Cant really blame them.
 

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