Vorshlag 2011 Mustang 5.0 GT - track/autocross/street Project

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Boaisy

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I'm at least getting the Bilstein kit this month, maybe even next week. Honestly, since the beginning of this year, I have completed a big chunk of my "mod list." However, after all of the mechanical stuff is over, then I'm moving to the body/aero type stuff.
 

kcbrown

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I'm at least getting the Bilstein kit this month, maybe even next week. Honestly, since the beginning of this year, I have completed a big chunk of my "mod list." However, after all of the mechanical stuff is over, then I'm moving to the body/aero type stuff.

Which springs are you getting with the Bilstein kit?

I've not heard of anyone else here who has that kit, so it'll be interesting to see what your impressions are of it. I'd expect, though, that the spring choice would make a substantial difference in the end result.


Vorshlag is (or was), I believe, working on a coilover kit based on Bilstein dampers, but I've no idea if that is still the case, or if it's getting anywhere, or when (if ever) it's likely to release.
 

5.0 Probie

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Any modders anonymous meetings?

The problem with those meetings is we all need help and just add to the fever! :roflmao::boobies:


Which springs are you getting with the Bilstein kit?

I've not heard of anyone else here who has that kit, so it'll be interesting to see what your impressions are of it. I'd expect, though, that the spring choice would make a substantial difference in the end result.


Vorshlag is (or was), I believe, working on a coilover kit based on Bilstein dampers, but I've no idea if that is still the case, or if it's getting anywhere, or when (if ever) it's likely to release.

Whachutalk'nbout :omfg:


http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108978&page=3 Start at post #52...
 

Boaisy

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The Bilstein coilovers, last I heard, were possibly to be out late this year. Have not heard anything since then.

I may get the Eibach Pro (11-14 set) of springs with it. I was going to get the Bilstein springs that were offered, but those seem to have gone missing on their list. No biggie though. Bilstein on their site for the shocks even said the Eibach springs pair nicely (though coming from Bilstein it is more of a marketing aim).
 
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ArizonaGT

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You should probably not read Terry's threads in that case.

Actually you should probably not go on the internet at all.

p0Axt9Z.gif
 

SlowJim

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Which springs are you getting with the Bilstein kit?

I've not heard of anyone else here who has that kit, so it'll be interesting to see what your impressions are of it. I'd expect, though, that the spring choice would make a substantial difference in the end result.


Vorshlag is (or was), I believe, working on a coilover kit based on Bilstein dampers, but I've no idea if that is still the case, or if it's getting anywhere, or when (if ever) it's likely to release.

I've had them on my car for about 6 weeks now, and one autocross. Feel free to PM me with any questions. With Eibach Pro-kits, it's plenty comfy for a daily driver and makes a well balanced setup for mild track work.
 

jmauld

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There are two different vorshlag bilstein products, right?

One is a set of bilsteins that are shorter than factory struts, that are intended to be used with lowering springs. But could be used with 2.5" adjustable spring seats.

Then there is another kit that is still in progress, that is going to be something similar to a set of KWs? This kit isn't ready yet, if I understand it correctly?
 

VTBoss302

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Update for August 14th, 2014:
More S197 Brake Cooling Products

When we were making the 4" oval plates we also updated our 3" backing plate design, choosing a different Ford part number for the backing plate itself. This new backing plate has more "inset" area for more even brake cooling around the hub and actually takes a little less time to make, as big chunks of the plate don't have to be cut away from this design. The oval versions are more expensive and time consuming, and fewer of these will be built and sold, so they are priced a little higher.

Ah, man. I just bought and installed your 3" backing plates last month which are of the older design. Oh, well.

Would it be worth upgrading to the newer style?
 

Houstonnw

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Ah, man. I just bought and installed your 3" backing plates last month which are of the older design. Oh, well.

Would it be worth upgrading to the newer style?

Are you still having problems with brake fade, even with the 3" ducts? What pads and front brakes are you using?
 

VTBoss302

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Are you still having problems with brake fade, even with the 3" ducts? What pads and front brakes are you using?

I hope not, but I just put the 3" ducts on so I won't know until I hit the track again in September.

Factory 14" Brembos with Stoptech Cyro slotted rotors front and rear, Pagid RS-29 front pads and RS-56 rear pads, Hard Brakes Ti Front Shims, J&M SS lines front and rear and Castrol SRF.

Was mostly curious if the newer backing plates are a significant enough improvement over the older version to consider changing (my guess is probably not worth it unless I go with the 4" version).
 

modernbeat

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I agree. The new version of the 3" is improved, but not enough to swap out for the old 3" backing plates. But if you need more cooling, then swapping to the 4" would be the way to go.
 

VTBoss302

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Jason,

Thanks for your input. I'm looking forward to testing my new brake duct setup and think it will make a big difference.

The quality of the plates is top notch and they fit the car beautifully. Far superior to anything else I've seen on the market.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Update for August 26th, 2014: We were fairly well caught up in the last post, which was a big one, so this one should be a quicker read. Only one competition event (SCCA autocross in August), and still no news on our 2015 Mustang (we have 2 on order, to try to get one quicker). The USCA/Optima event from March was televised, and we had a big party with most of the Dallas entrants to watch the show - where we actually saw a lot of the 8 Vorshlag entries from the event, including my own car. Catch re-runs on MAVTV, it was good! Of course we have worked on a number of Mustangs at the shop that I'll show progress on - namely Jamie Beck's ST3 Mustang build. Shop Manager Brad Maxcy has stepped up and is taking some good photos of this project (and all others) and we share a lot of tech along the way - namely, weights of every part removed or added during the NASA TT3/ST3 class prep. But first I'll briefly cover some new parts and statuses on popular Mustang bits.

New S197 Products + Lead Times

If you've been reading any of my online forum posts for the past 21 years, you know I love to measure, weigh and test things. The goal for all of this data is to make a car lighter, handle better, run cooler, or lower lap times. Sometimes I even follow my own advice.



One key piece of data gathering I learned this year from fellow NASA racer, former autocross co-driver of mine and long time friend Paul Costas was... Alcon caliper temperature strips. These little heat-activated, mark-and-hold data logging strips are applied directly to the brake caliper to measure maximum temps reached there - where the sensitive brake fluid is closest to the brake pad and rotor. Theoretically you look at the caliper temps, compare them to this chart, and take actions as needed. Well as you know I had been running front caliper temps in the 490°F range, which is past the 475°F peak "Danger Zone" recommended by Alcon. We know what happened when I ran out of these strips, ignored previous data, and ran a long stint at Road Atlanta (boiled brakes + crash). So now not only do I keep enough on hand for our own cars, we keep a LOT of them on hand to sell to other folks. $45 gets you 14 strips, which is enough for several race weekends. Cheap and easy way to know how hot the calipers are getting, and reading them is good insurance.

We have been selling the cost effective Vorshlag Bilstein "StreetPro" suspension kits (monotube inverted shocks + choice of FRPP springs + Vorshlag camber plates, all pre-assmebled and ready to install without re-using any OEM parts) like they are going out of style, and that has meant that we've bought the entire continent out of stock of the specific front strut we utilize - the one that fits the S197 but is 1.5" shorter than stock, to gain bump travel when lowered. Over the summer we bought out Bilstein USA and eventually scooped up all of the inventory of every distributor that held any stock during August, and Bilstein says they will have more in late September. The popularity of this one part caught Bilstein short during a peak in the popularity of this kit, but these dampers are made in Germany and they make them on their own schedule. What can we do?



Another part that has been in and out of stock is our own camber plates. After a key piece was finally delivered from a machine shop supplier our Vorshlag S197 camber plates went off of backorder in July and we fulfilled every single open order. There were a lot. Word got out that we had this camber plate in stock again, and in just a couple of weeks y'all had bought us out of another machined part needed for these, ugh! The volumes we are seeing lately are simply unprecedented. For a market that is price sensitive (Mustang), and an offering that is admittedly one of the higher cost options, we sure have trouble keeping them in stock.



Running out of machined parts has always been a struggle for a small niche suspension shop like us, as we have to depend on outside CNC shops to make many of our parts to our drawings and specs. But being an engineer and a racer myself, I'm very picky about our specs and who we allow to make our parts. After 10 years and about 15 different machine shops we still struggle with unpredictable lead times from outside vendors - and that's after weeding out more than dozen shops that couldn't meet our quality expectations, lead times, specified tolerances or shipping concerns. What used to take 2-4 weeks lately is taking 3-4 months, and that's with 100% domestic suppliers (we will NEVER have anything made overseas that has our name on it). A lot of this has to do with the economic downturn of 2008, when we lost a big chunk of the smaller CNC shops across the country. Now we're working on a brand new solution that we will implement to hopefully alleviate this problem, or tank my business completely, one or the other. No risk, no reward, right? I'm going to cover this big change for Vorshlag in detail soon, but until then please be patient while we push through these growing pains. If you have any doubts about any big ticket item you might want to purchase from us, feel free to call or email us to check inventory status or to place a phone order vs an online order. Thanks.

S197 Battery Tray + Mount Under Development

At long last, we're finally moving forward with an easy kit to install a 14 pound Odyssey PC680 in the S197 Mustang.



Many of you that have been reading this S197 Build Thread since 2010 might recognize the images above of the custom battery tray I made for my own 2011 GT to mount an Odyssey PC680. For many years I have preached the advantages of using low weight, high output AGM style batteries in place of old school wet lead acid batteries. Unless you need the ballast, a heavy lead-acid wet battery is just... weight.



I've put these lightweight AGM batteries in all of my own track/autocross/street cars over the past decade, and they each tend to work great for 3-4 years without complaint, even in daily driven cars in Texas heat. It is a great way to drop 20 pounds off the nose of an S197, and in some BMWs it can be a whopping 40 pound drop (the BMW E46 comes with a MEGA sized 54 pound battery!). And while the textbook response might be "move the weight to the trunk!" that comes with some added hassles and complications. First, you have to run (heavy and costly) larger gauge copper cable to the trunk, then make a whole new battery box back there, and do something about the power distribution block on the front of theS197. So instead I took the easy route and just plopped the 14 pound PC680 right where the stocker was (which was over 33 pounds).



Many of you have asked us over the past 3 years to make a production version of the replacement battery tray I made for my own car (detailed in this instruction gallery), and last week Jason sketched up some ideas and Olof started cutting aluminum plate to make a prototype for a reproducible version using Jerry Cecco's 2012 Boss302 Mustang as the test car. Jerry's OEM battery sort of exploded, so we supplied him with a PC680 and will have this production installation kit available soon.



There are some elaborate, heavy and complicated battery mounting brackets out there (see above, right) but what we're working on is a battery mount + replacement battery tray. The battery will stay in the same OEM location, so it is easy to access/charge/test, but it will just be a lot lighter. Look for more pics of this finished prototype in my next post.

Jamie Beck 2013 Mustang GT - ST3 Prep

Last time we showed this Mustang we were just beginning to make the main hoop in the roll cage, after removing the interior, dash and door guts. After about 50 hours of work by Ryan on the roll cage, that aspect of this project is almost complete. We also have weighed a lot of parts that some of you might be interested in. We took pictures and will share all of this with you as we go.

Jamie's Project Gallery (250+ pics): http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Projects/Jamie-Becks-S197-Mustang/



One step on almost all roll cage jobs includes removing the front and rear glass, so we called the pros at Titan Auto Glass to extract the windows. In this case the windshield was salvaged and will be reused, but Jamie had always planned on going Lexan on the rear and side quarter glass, so those were removed (intract) and thrown out.



The Windshield is going back in, and being that's its a multi-pane, laminated windshield there's no surprise that it weighs 29.0 pounds. Going Lexan here would save a few but having windshield wipers is a nice bonus with real glass (Lexan scratches fairly easily), not to mention the safety aspect of stronger OEM style windshield. The rear glass with integral defroster grid was still a hefty 24.3 pounds, and that is getting replaced with Lexan. I'll show the Lexan weights after they are trimmed, fitted, borders are painted, but before they go in for the last time.



The side, rear quarter glass is fairly light at only 3.0 pounds, but each one is relatively small. But we found some pounds in the A/C system removal, shown below...



To be honest, I thought the A/C compressor would weigh a good bit more, but it only tips the scales at 13.6 pounds. Likewise the condenser is a svelte 5.3, but removing this is more to help airflow to the radiator. We pulled the condenser off of my 2011 Mustang for similar reasons (and because it got busted at RA), but it will be reinstalled and functional for Optima event in Vegas. We gotta stay cool on the road rally, yo!



We had removed the guts from both doors when I wrote my last installment, but hadn't weighed all of it, which included: interior door panels, speakers, trim, weatherstripping, door glass, window motor, regulator/tracks, and inner door structure. As you can see it all weighs in at 67.2 pounds, but that doesn't include the door bars (which were left in place last time).



As you can see above left, the glass, regulators/tracks and motors alone were 34.2 pounds of that. And after the door bars were built it was shown that the OEM "crash bars" would be in the way, so 4 quick spot welds later those were both removed, for another 7.2 pounds of steel. All together, the door modifications for the roll cage installation have removed (67.2 + 7.2) 74.4 pounds. It is all adding up...

Cage Progress + Rules Interpretation

Whenever you build a roll cage for a given car for the first time, there are always some gray areas that pop up. In this case I wanted to use the Maximum Motorsports bolt-in angle brackets from their roll bar installation kits for this cage. Would this brace becoem a "roll cage mounting plate", and if so, would this be legal to use with the cage? Our hope was to remove the stamped steel OEM bracket at the B-pillar to rear seat bulkhead junction (shown below left in RED), replace them with raw steel MM brackets (shown below right in WHITE), weld the MM brackets to the chassis, then land the main roll hoop to this beefy support.



Ryan was skeptical of the allowance in ST, which uses the NASA CCR's 100 sq inch maximum plate rule for mounting plates for cage tubes. Sure enough, the MM bracket was much more than 100 sq inches on the outer surface and would seemingly violate that rule. Strangely enough the American Iron ruleset has an allowance that supersedes the CCR and does allow more than 100 sq inches, which is one of the only times the AI cage rules are more liberal than ST.



We were stuck, so I wrote a letter to the National ST series director for clarification and asked our local ST race director (Mike P) for his input. Mike seemed to think this "like for like" replacement would be legal, but we were still worried about the 100 sq inch rule if we welded it onto the chassis. Jason measured each face, input the many weird shapes into SolidWorks, and then had the software add up the surface area for one side of each external surface and it was over 188 sq inches, so it would easily violate this rule. After about a couple of emails, some input from other NASA directors, an official ruling came back a week later - this could be used, if it was bolted in. That... wasn't what we had wanted to do, as we'd always want to weld the mounting plates for cage tubes to the chassis, so we punted.

continued below
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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continued from above



That's a shame, as this MM brace is a very nice piece. We could have probably gotten away with it, but to play it safe Ryan just built a flat plate (about 80 sq in) and will weld that in place of the corner brace, with the OEM bracket removed. Once we tie the hoop into the B-pillar it will be plenty strong. Using some high tech methods (measuring tape, sharpie, radius gauges, and patience) Ryan made the main hoop then started knocking out the other tubes in the back.




The only tube I saw Ryan do more than once was the front upper tube shown above. The first bar he made was straight, but the slightly curved version shown here allows for another 2 inches of fore-aft head room, and every little bit helps. He TIG welded each bar in place with a tack at this stage, as many of the tubes have to be removed for final welding (when there are multiple tube junctions at a single node).



Ryan is no stranger to roll cage fabrication, as he has worked on several Pro level teams from World Challenge to Daytona Prototypes. He also has Jason and my combined 55 years of racing experience to get additional input from, and another fabricator in house (Olof) who has built roll cages here at Vorshlag. But for most of this, Ryan was just jamming it out with a minimal amount of input from Jason and me. We wanted FIA crush bars, which he did beautifully. We asked for additional head room at the roof diagonal, so he tweaked the front inner structure of the upper windshield frame to allow for more clearance. And of course added gusset tubes at the upper corners.



In the two pictures above you can see why Ryan went ahead and cut out the OEM door bars, as the new "NASCAR" style door bars he added reach out and almost touch the outer door skin. The extra 2 inches of room added after removing the OEM beam allows for more space for the driver and more room for deflection in a side impact. The tan splotches on the insides of the doors are where the OEM beams were glued in place, by the way.



There are hundreds of ways to route the various tubes on a given car's cage, and our job is to make sure they meet the specifications of the rules and are made with the best fabrication techniques possible. The door bar routing used here was based partly on the 302-S cages, with a few tweaks we felt were worth adding.



After about 5 days of work he was wrapping up and starting final welding. The front plinth blocks were removed, the cage was tilted forward to drop it down, and he could then get to the upper tube junctions to make 360° welds. There are still a few tubes to add (harness bar, one more diagonal in the main hoop), some "taco" gussets, and A-pillar reinforcement plates going in, but those happen last.



I will show more of the cage in the next installment, after it is finished, painted, and back at our shop for final assembly. Oh yes, the lightweight defroster/heater core we added. Have had a lot of folks ask me about this ($145 from here).



Some lightweight aluminum mounting brackets were made to mount this box to the firewall, low on the driver's side. I will show all of the heater hose plumbing changes needed to utilize this in my next post, as well as the vent hoses going to the defroster outlet in the dash.

Wing Progress

During the same time period Ryan found time to mock-up the wing once again, this time with anodized and powder coated Vorshlag built wing mounting parts. This was to help design and measure the custom wing end plates we are adding to the AJ Hartman Racing carbon fiber rear wing.



The finished wing uprights and trunk mounting brackets fit perfectly and look better with durable black finishes. The end plates shown are still cardboard, and this is the 2nd design. Jason has some aero tweaks he wants to do, and since Super Touring doesn't limit end plate size or distance behind the car, they will get even bigger than this mock-up shown. Look for these to be cut from .063" aluminum sheet and the final versions will be painted body color white.

SCCA Autocross at TMS Bus Lot, August 17, 2014

Due to the extreme heat and humidity we see in the summers here in Texas, NASA and a lot of other track organizations take off the month of July and August, which we don't mind one bit. We race 12 months a year here, and this "summer break" from road course events was welcomed. But after a couple of months we were getting an itch to go run the Mustang again, so we signed up for the Texas Region SCCA's local autocross in mid-August. The weather looked a little sketchy the night before, and we loaded up tjhe Mustang in the rain, at our house...



Driving across town to get to the event site we went through some of the heaviest rainstorms I can ever remember. On a toll road marked as 70mph we slowed down to 35 mph more than once, wipers on high, just to be able to see. We should have turned around and gone right back to bed at 5 am, when it was raining steadily at the house before we left, but we're masochists.



It rained off and on all morning, but the forecast kept saying it would stop by 8 am. During the driver's meeting at about 8:30 it started to DOWN POUR. It was raining so hard that our Solo RE's paper notes disintegrated and he had to go over all of the safety items from memory. There were some safety improvements to the site, shown above right, but all Junior Karts entries are on permanent hiatus after the events in the prior month.

20140817_080050-M.jpg


Amy and I of course forgot all of our rain gear and had to borrow water proof jackets from friends. We still got SOAKED. She stuck with her original entry of Street Mod in the first run heat, and sloshed around in the rain on Hoosier A6 tires that were corded a bit from the Drift-vs-Grip thing I ran in at TMS in late June. I had really heat cycled out the tires at that event, and it was obvious to me later, after it dried out.

Vorshlag Event Photo Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-Events/SCCA-TMS-081714/



She tip-toed around on bald tires in standing water, and somehow still managed 2nd in SMod class. Kudos to her! I didn't have the patience to run on these hopeless tires in these sloppy conditions, so I stupidly moved my entry to the "X" (Pro) class, which ran in heat two.

B61G3435-L.jpg


Every competitor got 5 runs that day, but in (only) X-class the first 3 are the only runs recorded. And while it dried out continually through this 2nd of 4 heats, it wasn't really dry until runs 4 and 5. So my official times were pretty bad, but by my 5th run it was drying and I posted a semi-fast time (8th quickest for the day). It was clean despite my wild sideways finish on that run (shown below).



By the 3rd heat the sun was out and it was not only dry but warming up, so tires were working better. By the 4th heat it was freagin hot! Our own order desk manager Jon Beaty beat all of the entrants in the large MAM class in his 3V 2006 GT, and dang near nipped the CAM winner Mike Dusold (Jon coned away the overall "American Muscle" win) in his twin turbo LSx powered 67 Camaro (Goodguys/Optima competitor). We need to at least get Jon some dang Vorshlag camber plates, sheesh!



Forgot to charge the vidcam so we got zero video. That's probably best, as it was a frustrating event for everyone in the first heat, who had times slowed way down by the wet. And even into heat 2, with mixed conditions, comparisons to other heats are pointless. We really should have been there on BFG Rivals testing for Vegas, but my replacement 18x12" front wheels (which I bent during my crash at Road Atlanta) were stuck at the powder coater so we just left the old (dead) Hoosiers on the car from before, which was a waste of time. But even a wet and soggy day autocrossing still beats a good day at work! :D

Where's Our 2015 GT?

This is the million dollar question - When will the 2015 Mustangs finally start hitting dealerships??? We've seen some Ecobomb pre-production "dealer trainer" Mustangs showing up locally, but not any normal production cars (Job 1 was August 15th), and no V8s. I want to weigh a V8 2015. Badly. Our dealer has two of the same car on order for us - one in "dealer stock" and one as a "custom order" - to try to get one early. The letter I read today is now pushing customer stock back unto late October/early November, which sucks. But hey, it is what it is. I have already sent in a letter requesting to purchase a 2015 Body in White as well, for another S550 build we'd like to build along-side our normal production 2015 GT Performance Pack car.

TexturedBlack2-M.jpg


We've been doing a lot of research and have found the 18x10" Forgestar CF5 (ninja edit!) will clear the Performance Pack's 15" (380mm) Brembo front brakes, which is a relief. Anyone with the 15" GT500 front brakes can benefit from this as well.



I ordered a demo / lobby CF5 18x10" S197 wheel to test on our first 2015 GT PP car, and I have a feeling we'll be running wider 18x11 or 18x12" CF5s on our S550 Mustang very soon. You can see the extra room in the "barrel" of the CF5 (black 5 spoke) vs the F14 (silver mesh wheel) sitting below it on our lobby display, in the pictures above. I'll save the rest of that for our upcoming S550 Build Thread, which I will launch right after the car arrives (and I'll link to it in this thread).

That's all for this week, see ya next time!
 
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neema

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DSC_4636-M.jpg



The CF5 looks like it has much more room. The 18x10 f14 really fit over a 380mm/15" brake? Must have been toight like a tiger
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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The CF5 looks like it has much more room. The 18x10 f14 really fit over a 380mm/15" brake? Must have been tight like a tiger

DSC_9571-M.jpg


Forgestar F14 18x10" on GT500 fronts = no workie.

DSC_9572-M.jpg


Nope, the F14 18x10 does NOT fit over the 380mm Brembo. We tested it, above. Now the word from Forgestar is that the F14 18x11 and F14 18x12 does fit over the 15" fronts, but I haven't verified that yet. But the barrel on the CF5 18x10 does look dramatically different.

Body in White...yum

This answer just came back to my request to buy a 2015 BIW:

We currently have no plans for a 2015 BIW. If we do I wouldn’t expect it for at least a year. The car is so new we typically will not release one until well after the public has the real cars available.
So... we're going to immediately start looking for a Front Hit, Flood Damage, or Theft Recovery 2015 Mustang (V6 or V8). I'll put the word out as soon as these cars start to arrive...
 

ArizonaGT

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You guys building a straight-up W2W competition car for NASA? Or are you bringing in enough $$$$$ to go to PWC? :)
 
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