What coil-overs should I buy? Poll inside

[csamsh]

I would ask- bring the tech. That's just a paid review with business interest and subjectivity backing it.

Yes, rear damper stroke is a problem. A well documented one. You can get a shock to work with the eye to eye setup but it will compromise your ability to set ride height.

 

[csamsh]

H. Combine that with an advanced shock design that operates on lower gas pressures … with no cavitation … reduces stiction & friction a ton … creating a faster responding shock & more grip.


Sounds like it's a twin tube, and they're trying to technobabble their way around physics. If I'm wrong, let me know. But, I've gotta invoke Feynman...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

Also I don't like the seals thing. In a race damper on a pro race car that gets rebuilt every race weekend, fine. On a damper for a street/hpde/track car, use a more suitable seal for the application and I'd be more likely to buy it.

 

[barbaro]

I would ask- bring the tech. That's just a paid review with business interest and subjectivity backing it.

Yes, rear damper stroke is a problem. A well documented one. You can get a shock to work with the eye to eye setup but it will compromise your ability to set ride height.

Not a paid review. A forum post just like yours by a guy that sells all kinds of shocks. In fact, in that particular instances, the OP chose Ridetech coilovers based on Sutton's advice. As for the tech. That has been established and explains why JRI are dominating in all sorts of racing whether it pro-touring or American Iron. Sutton has personally observed the testing on a a 7 post. That is not a subjective exercise. He has no reason to lie. Further, Filip Trojanek has tested these shocks on the track against Motons? Guess who won? BTW csamsh, you often demand the tech without providing any of your own.

As for rear damper stroke, Not a problem in American Iron. JRI seems to do pretty well there and certainly not a problem for Mike Maier or anybody in pro-touring where JRI's utterly dominates. Further, I have not encountered this problem because i suspect it is a theoretical problem rather than a practical one.

Now there are lots of good products and JRI is not the only one, but when it comes to the what the best product is for competitive racing, it's pretty clear. Not trying to disrespect anyone, but I did a lot of research on this subject. Ron Sutton, Filip Trojanek, Mike Maier, Vaughn Gitten< Ken Bloch, etc ad infinitum; Those are race, drift and touring car builders with tons of success and expereince. In fact, more than anybody on this board and that includes Terry Fair. I went with their advice and their choices for the reasons stated above. They equip their own cars that they track and race with JRI's. Those decisions are based on valid data regardless of whether it is at my fingertips.

Further your technobabble makes no sense at all and neither does your invocation of Richard Feynman. If your argument is that Cortex JRI struts are really twin tubes being foisted on the public as a result of some massive fraud, then I have to disagree based on personal observation. As for "reality taking precedence over public relations," I am afraid that you are a victim of that because JRI shocks are now and have been for a few years the leading dampers for the application that this forum is dedicated to, corner carving. That is a generally accepted fact among several classes of racers from off road to motorcycle, to Pro-touring, autocross and road racers.

And incidentally, the dampers have held up pretty well despite the thin racing seals. They are not delicate units. The OP asked which was the best coilover. For getting the best time at the track or superior performance: JRI. For giving you significantly inferior performance while lasting longer without repair: everything else I guess but I also blew out two Koni Yellows in a year just driving on the street and three in total. So who really knows.

 

[Norm Peterson]

↑↑↑ . . . I think you'll need to separate the effects that are more applicable to cornering through substantially banked turns out from those for essentially flat corners, and differentiate among "conventional", "BBSS", and "tweener" setups. I'm not going to lead the discussion any further than that.

You aren't the only one here who knows of, or has read from, or has had correspondences of one sort or another with Ron Sutton.


Norm

 

[barbaro]

↑↑↑ . . . I think you'll need to separate the effects that are more applicable to cornering through substantially banked turns out from those for essentially flat corners, and differentiate among "conventional", "BBSS", and "tweener" setups. I'm not going to lead the discussion any further than that.

You aren't the only one here who knows of, or has read from, or has had correspondences of one sort or another with Ron Sutton.


Norm

All shocks are valved according to their use. But regardless of that, the ability of the shock to handle stiction, friction, cavitation, etc and respond quickly to input is universal. This the JRIs do better than anything else. As for Ron Sutton, your point is . . . ?

 

[kcbrown]

Not a paid review. A forum post just like yours by a guy that sells all kinds of shocks.

Could you link to the thread?

In fact, in that particular instances, the OP chose Ridetech coilovers based on Sutton's advice. As for the tech. That has been established and explains why JRI are dominating in all sorts of racing whether it pro-touring or American Iron.

What is the source for that claim, and what is the evidence behind it?

Further your technobabble makes no sense at all and neither does your invocation of Richard Feynman. If your argument is that Cortex JRI struts are really twin tubes being foisted on the public as a result of some massive fraud, then I have to disagree based on personal observation. As for "reality taking precedence over public relations," I am afraid that you are a victim of that because JRI shocks are now and have been for a few years the leading dampers for the application that this forum is dedicated to, corner carving. That is a generally accepted fact among several classes of racers from off road to motorcycle, to Pro-touring, autocross and road racers.

I'd love to see the evidence supporting that.

Regardless, twin tube versus monotube today seems more like a religious debate than anything else. Modern manufacturing techniques (e.g., laser drilling) are able to control orifice sizes down to micrometers, so the damping precision argument probably doesn't hold the weight it used to. Sure, the mass produced inexpensive Koni Yellow dampers may not be immune to that argument, but the JRIs almost certainly are. As for the heat and cavitation arguments, they are dependent in part upon the properties of the fluid used in the dampers being compared. All else being equal, the monotube shocks will be more resistant to cavitation. But what really matters isn't which is more resistant to cavitation, it's whether or not the resistance of the shock in question is sufficient to prevent cavitation under the conditions it'll be used. If the resistance is sufficient, then it doesn't matter whether the shock is monotube or twin tube. If it's not sufficient and it's a twin tube shock, then going to a monotube shock with the same characteristics will help. JRI twin tube dampers wouldn't be competitive at all if they didn't have sufficient fade resistance in most circumstances.


In any case, to casually dismiss a twin-tube design as being unsuitable or uncompetitive is an insult to the designer. The only way to know how well the damper is going to work is to actually run it, and compare against other dampers under the same conditions (car, driver, track, weather, etc.). For the kind of money the JRIs command, and given the amount of time they've been around, it would be insanity to dismiss them as being uncompetitive against their monotube competition.

And incidentally, the dampers have held up pretty well despite the thin racing seals. They are not delicate units.

How long have you had them for?

The OP asked which was the best coilover. For getting the best time at the track or superior performance: JRI. For giving you significantly inferior performance while lasting longer without repair: everything else I guess but I also blew out two Koni Yellows in a year just driving on the street and three in total. So who really knows.

What springs were you on when you blew out your Konis, and how many miles did you put on them before they blew (and how long did you have them for)? I'm now on Boss 302 springs (Laguna Seca out back, standard up front), so I'm quite interested in the answer to this.

 

[Norm Peterson]

As for Ron Sutton, your point is . . . ?

. . . that if you're going to quote him here for the context of this thread you should start by filtering out the things in that copied/pasted text that probably don't apply here.


Norm

 

[csamsh]

I make no claims regarding the superiority of one product or another based on anything aside from my own opinion or experience- which is absolutely not gospel or presented as such.

We want to see some lap time comparisons, drawings, dyno sheets, pics of a piston, something like that. That's all. When something gets presented as the G.O.A.T. we need to be shown why.

 

[kcbrown]

I make no claims regarding the superiority of one product or another based on anything aside from my own opinion or experience- which is absolutely not gospel or presented as such.

We want to see some lap time comparisons, drawings, dyno sheets, pics of a piston, something like that. That's all. When something gets presented as the G.O.A.T. we need to be shown why.

I'd love to see lap time comparisons. But nobody ever seems to do them properly (same unbiased set of drivers, same car, same tires, same springs, same ride height settings, same course, same conditions, same everything except the dampers themselves, and done in a double blind manner). Instead, all we get are these claims about some damper being superior to another on the basis of generalizations about their design, or how they're winning in racing, or whatever. Those few lap time comparisons that I've seen involved multiple changes to the car, not just the dampers. Even the personal experience stories like yours generally involve multiple changes. That's not really all that surprising, since people often change dampers because they're changing something else, like spring rates.

Nobody has, that I know of, published properly done comparisons of the dampers on the market. Not coilovers, not OTS struts and shocks, nothing. All we hear is a bunch of hyped up marketing BS. And honestly, what else can we expect? Marketing BS is easy to produce. Properly done comparisons are hard.

In that context, it's pretty hard to blame someone if they decide to go with the lowest priced option that meets their durability requirements. It's also hard to blame them if they go with the highest priced option under the premise that quality and capability go up with price.

I went with what amounts to the lowest cost option that still seemed reasonable and met my needs. But around here, I'm weird, because I seem to be one of the few people who knows going into it that he's not going to win competitions, and thus has his focus solely on the joy of driving, and of making the car do what he wants. My setup works really nicely for that, though it could well be that as I get better at driving, I'll end up wanting greater capability precisely for the fun of it. So I don't mean to say that anyone else here is under any sorts of illusions or any of that, just that my priorities are less focused on pure performance than most, and my choices reflect that.

 

[barbaro]

I'd love to see lap time comparisons. But nobody ever seems to do them properly (same unbiased set of drivers, same car, same tires, same springs, same ride height settings, same course, same conditions, same everything except the dampers themselves, and done in a double blind manner). Instead, all we get are these claims about some damper being superior to another on the basis of generalizations about their design, or how they're winning in racing, or whatever. Those few lap time comparisons that I've seen involved multiple changes to the car, not just the dampers. Even the personal experience stories like yours generally involve multiple changes. That's not really all that surprising, since people often change dampers because they're changing something else, like spring rates.

Nobody has, that I know of, published properly done comparisons of the dampers on the market. Not coilovers, not OTS struts and shocks, nothing. All we hear is a bunch of hyped up marketing BS. And honestly, what else can we expect? Marketing BS is easy to produce. Properly done comparisons are hard.

In that context, it's pretty hard to blame someone if they decide to go with the lowest priced option that meets their durability requirements. It's also hard to blame them if they go with the highest priced option under the premise that quality and capability go up with price.

I went with what amounts to the lowest cost option that still seemed reasonable and met my needs. But around here, I'm weird, because I seem to be one of the few people who knows going into it that he's not going to win competitions, and thus has his focus solely on the joy of driving, and of making the car do what he wants. My setup works really nicely for that, though it could well be that as I get better at driving, I'll end up wanting greater capability precisely for the fun of it. So I don't mean to say that anyone else here is under any sorts of illusions or any of that, just that my priorities are less focused on pure performance than most, and my choices reflect that.

The data has been amassed, on 7 post machines and in racing. You see the results on the track and in pro-touring. I quoted Ron Sutton because he is a well known builder apparently privy to the raw data. Its not like he is the only one saying this by the way. Some very big names are using these dampers and its not because JRI spreads out big money for sponsorship. they are a 7 year old company, they are not KOni or Bilstein and they already are one of only three shocks approved for NASCAR.

As for my personal experience with them. Firm even at the lowest setting but livable at my 400/200 spring rate. Handling is get the fuck out of here but who cares, its not like anybody takes my word for it. But these other people are a little harder to ignore. There are three Mustang JRI packages, Cortex, Maximum Motorsports and Maier Racing. All west coast, which i really think is the crux of it. And why they get no love. The complete Cortex or griggs watts link/torque arm setup + JRI shocks is west coast and it is the top of the line stuff. Filip for instance builds this stuff literally right on the track. Name one other manufacturer whose shop is on a raceway? So he is testing this stuff all the time there and as part of race team testing. And the word there is out. They test faster then the other shocks.

 

[barbaro]

KC Brown: Google, do the research. Talk to people. I have. I am not going to cite every link. this isn't law review. I saw few if any citations to authority in previous posts. here is one: the original poster asks the question What is the best shock for pro touring because it seems like everybody has JRI shocks. He asked and answered his own question. However Ron Sutton explained why everyone he saw in pro touring were using JRI shocks http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/111531-Penske-vs-jri So I started my posts with citation to this authority. You can choose to believe it or not. But here we have a poster testifying to his observation that JRI dominated Pro-Touring events. And then Ron Sutton explained to him why that was. I have also had this information confirmed from other sources such as Maximum, Mike Maier and Filip. That info has also been shared with others and you can find it on the internet if you look. JRI explains their tech and publishes dynographs here: http://www.jrishocks.com/technology/jri-advantage/

 

[barbaro]

http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/89617-dse-shocks where community of pro-tourer's indicate that JRI's are the dominant shock and a Ramey Womer, Product Development Engineer at UMI Performance, Inc., makes the statement that JRI's are replacing penske's as the go to shock in Oval Track Racing. Is this happening because of a mass delusion? Are all these people mistaken? Is it all commercial puffery? I don't think so. They're the truth.

 

[kcbrown]

The data has been amassed, on 7 post machines and in racing. You see the results on the track and in pro-touring.

Well, maybe.

The problem with using racing as the source is precisely that you're not getting a comparison where the only variable is the dampers, at least if what you're going by is who is winning the races. There's a lot more that changes just over the course of a single season, and even more across seasons. In series like American Iron, there is an enormous variety of cars, so there are a lot of factors involved in which cars make it to the podium. Let me give you an example. 2015 Continental Tire Challenge at VIR. The Nissan 370Z of Doran Racing basically ran away from the rest of the field during much of the race, making it clear that it was the fastest car there. But it didn't even finish the race -- they ran out of fuel two laps before the checkered flag. That car may well have had the best dampers of the field, but the race results wouldn't tell you that. Racing results alone simply can't tell an outsider which dampers are more effective.

Additionally, teams are looking for any edge they can get, so you'll see them switching shocks in order to attempt to get a competitive edge. They will test with the new shocks, and I'm sure the better ones will do back to back tests in order to determine which one gets them faster times at whatever tracks they test at. But in a highly competitive field, a team might well run something new for a season or two just to see if it gives them a competitive advantage, as long as testing doesn't indicate any real disadvantage.

Despite all that, I think it's quite safe to say that the JRIs are at least competitive with the other brands of racing dampers. If they weren't, then the teams that selected them would be performing worse than they had previously, and you'd see teams dropping the JRIs in order to return to the dampers they were previously using.

Thanks for the links. Could make for some interesting reading.


What springs were you running when you blew your Konis?

 

[barbaro]

Steeda Sport Spring on the konis. but I drive in Los Angeles. I have had the JRI's on for 6 months I am surprised they lasted this long. I cannot begin to describe to you how horrible the roads are here. I make the assumption that the race teams have and are switching to JRI's because of their internal lap testing data and 7 post testing referred to by Sutton. That is controlled testing. The prevalence of JRI's in pro-touring is a direct result of the results they have achieved. In his scenario, Ron Sutton describes a 25% advantage over Penskes. That, if true, is extraordinary. My understanding is that in track testing Filip was involved in at VIR, they tested JRI against Motons, the JRI beat it by two seconds. BTW, if you put on the JRI's you will never go back to the Konis. I can also highly recommend the the Max Motorsport K-Member and Steeda Xbrace. My car is so precise it is no longer a Mustang. It is something else entirely. very very solid. The chassis under total control and maximum grip at all four corners. See this for more analysis of why Ron Sutton among many others think that JRI's are the best shock for autocross or racing: //www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=42423&page=36)& start at post #360

 

[Norm Peterson]

I don't think anybody is trying to say that the JRI's would be a poor choice for OP - he is aware of the kind of price point that probably removes JRI's from consideration by perhaps the majority of enthusiasts.

Ron Sutton has also recommended RideTech (more than once IIRC), so he does have some flexibility.

Forgive me if I find it a little hard to believe that the Motons aren't already far enough into the land of diminishing returns to where lap time improvement to the tune of over half a second per minute isn't involving more than just the change to JRI's. It's either that or the Moton's really weren't optimized for the car's baseline data. That said, which JRI's was Filip using? Singles or doubles? Might matter to OP.

Don't take all this as a shot at JRI; it's not intended that way.


FWIW, you more than likely hurt your Konis from running out of suspension travel on the roads you end up having to use, not from the Steedas being too stiff for the Konis. If you didn't have to lower your car for other reasons (and if the lowering spring industry recognized this as a niche worth chasing), you might still be running them. Though you wouldn't then have the JRI experience.


Norm

 

[Stephen31201]

HEY! Its obvious you guys are bias toward what you prefer. Sooooo I am volunteering my services to be the non-bias driver that gets to test the suspension kits and drive the shiz out of your car! I just want to help! I will be at VIR in Feb with helmet in hand.

 

[barbaro]

I don't think anybody is trying to say that the JRI's would be a poor choice for OP - he is aware of the kind of price point that probably removes JRI's from consideration by perhaps the majority of enthusiasts.

Ron Sutton has also recommended RideTech (more than once IIRC), so he does have some flexibility.

Forgive me if I find it a little hard to believe that the Motons aren't already far enough into the land of diminishing returns to where lap time improvement to the tune of over half a second per minute isn't involving more than just the change to JRI's. It's either that or the Moton's really weren't optimized for the car's baseline data. That said, which JRI's was Filip using? Singles or doubles? Might matter to OP.

Don't take all this as a shot at JRI; it's not intended that way.


FWIW, you more than likely hurt your Konis from running out of suspension travel on the roads you end up having to use, not from the Steedas being too stiff for the Konis. If you didn't have to lower your car for other reasons (and if the lowering spring industry recognized this as a niche worth chasing), you might still be running them. Though you wouldn't then have the JRI experience.


Norm

I'm not saying the Steeda springs caused my koni's to blow out. I was just answering KC Brown's question. Potholes caused my Konis to blow out. As for the track testing, I'm going to assume that Filipis not an idiot and knows how to test dampers assess data and draw conclusions. He does have a degree in nuclear engineering. I also rely on the other authorities cited whose reports and conclusions are consonant. Now whether they are the right coilover for the OP, I don't know. When the question comes to what are the best coilovers for competition that you can put on a streetcar or S197? the answer is JRI according to some solid authority. So argue with them.

 

[kcbrown]

Steeda Sport Spring on the konis. but I drive in Los Angeles. I have had the JRI's on for 6 months I am surprised they lasted this long. I cannot begin to describe to you how horrible the roads are here.

I'm in the SF Bay Area myself, so I know what you mean.

I make the assumption that the race teams have and are switching to JRI's because of their internal lap testing data and 7 post testing referred to by Sutton. That is controlled testing. The prevalence of JRI's in pro-touring is a direct result of the results they have achieved. In his scenario, Ron Sutton describes a 25% advantage over Penskes. That, if true, is extraordinary.

I wonder what exactly he means by a "25% advantage". Lap times are 25% better? That would be extraordinary. But if it were true, then everyone would have ditched all the other dampers in favor of the JRIs.

In the context he's speaking of, it sounds like he's talking about the shock's reflexes. I've no idea how much additional grip that translates to.

My understanding is that in track testing Filip was involved in at VIR, they tested JRI against Motons, the JRI beat it by two seconds. BTW, if you put on the JRI's you will never go back to the Konis.

Oh, of that I have no doubt! I'll end up going there if I manage to find that my current suspension exhibits characteristics that impact the fun of driving the car. I expect it'll be some time before that happens.

Actually, if I get to the point where this car ends up holding me back noticeably, it means that I'm going fast enough at that point that I'd be better off buying a dedicated track toy. Practicalities will almost certainly dictate that it still be streetworthy, but at that point there will be no reason to hold back.

I can also highly recommend the the Max Motorsport K-Member and Steeda Xbrace. My car is so precise it is no longer a Mustang. It is something else entirely. very very solid.

I've not noticed any problem with the rigidity of my car, but I'm running on street tires and will continue to do so, at least until I get to the point where they can no longer handle the heat. I might never get to the point where I'm driving so hard that the tires can't take it.

 

[barbaro]

I made a variety of changes on my car starting with a boss steering rack and 302 s lower control arms attached to a Maximum Motorsports K member with Steeda engine mounts. and a steeda x brace in the back. plus the JRIs All at the same time.

So It is hard to attribute specific improvement to any one thing but the K-Member stands out and you will notice how soft your front end is once you put one in.

 

[barbaro]

By the way, you do realize that JRI's are monotubes. . . The twin tube insinuation was B.S propoganda.