When Advancetrac is turned off, is it really off?

larry Stark

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Have you done any experimenting with staggering front vs read brake pad formulations to ensure that neither end of the car is over-braked relative to the other end?

Too much front brake increases stopping distances and steering control up near the limit. Too much rear brake risks a spin.


Norm
Good point but my incident occurred driving in a straight line rolling into the throttle. No braking.
 

Norm Peterson

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Good point but my incident occurred driving in a straight line rolling into the throttle. No braking.
I was really aiming my comment at jewc75.

But yeah, I've heard where stability control systems can turn themselves back on under situations that would hopefully be rare in street driving but which could crop up during hard performance driving. Subsequent to ABS intervention comes to mind as one possibility.


Norm
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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We haven't, we have only monitored it during datalogging on a 1/4 mile pass. It absolutely is running in the background. The left front abs wire is easily disconnected and once it is all of the nannies are off.
 

Midlife Crises

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I haven't seen any 2010 GT's that didn't have traction control on/off, sport mode, and advance track totally off. I seldom use the sport mode, extremely rare. But I do shut off the traction control 99% of the time. With traction control on, it just trashes the rear brakes around town.

What I didn't realize was the traction control is ON, when in sport mode.
I have a 2010 GT base model. It has traction control on/off and advancetrac on/off by stepping on the brake and holding the button for 5 seconds. It does not have the sport mode. Holding the brake and double clicking the button simply turns traction control off and back on again. Maybe that feature only comes with the premium display package.
 

Norm Peterson

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We haven't, we have only monitored it during datalogging on a 1/4 mile pass. It absolutely is running in the background. The left front abs wire is easily disconnected and once it is all of the nannies are off.
I've always figured that to be the case. I've just been a bit hesitant to post that "solution" publicly.


Norm
 

LarryJM

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Tested today and I have all three on my 2014 and it started out as a base Coyote. Not sure if the Base Cluster reads all three but the Premium Cluster sure does.
 
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JEWC_Motorsports

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I've always figured that to be the case. I've just been a bit hesitant to post that "solution" publicly.


Norm
I only run like that at the track, plug it back in when hitting the streets. Im sure there could be some legal ramifications if a wreck occurred with it disabled.
 

Midlife Crises

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I use the “step on the break and hold the button” feature every time I race or do a burnout. Otherwise using the line lock really pisses of the ABS, traction control system and I have to turn the ignition off to reset it.
 

ddd4114

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We haven't, we have only monitored it during datalogging on a 1/4 mile pass. It absolutely is running in the background. The left front abs wire is easily disconnected and once it is all of the nannies are off.
What is the functional difference between disconnecting the ABS wire and turning off stability control using the method described in this thread? With ESC turned off using the traditional method, I've never noticed any kind of intervening on track (road courses, not 1/4, but I'm not sure why 1/4 racing would be more sensitive). I also didn't notice any difference after swapping to the Ford Racing ABS module that keeps stability control disabled.

Also, wouldn't disconnecting an ABS wire also.... disable ABS? The S197 ABS is pretty good, so I'm not sure why you would want to do that.
 

Norm Peterson

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What is the functional difference between disconnecting the ABS wire and turning off stability control using the method described in this thread? With ESC turned off using the traditional method, I've never noticed any kind of intervening on track (road courses, not 1/4, but I'm not sure why 1/4 racing would be more sensitive).
Perhaps the car's roll and pitch inertial responses during a run can lie outside what the AdvanceTrac calibration expects to see when the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead. Or it could perhaps happen if the LF tire was getting air on the launch and sending a wheel sensor signal that didn't agree with the signals from the other sensors.


Also, wouldn't disconnecting an ABS wire also.... disable ABS? The S197 ABS is pretty good, so I'm not sure why you would want to do that.
Yes, you'd lose the ABS as well. And on the street in a car that's running either stock brake pads or aftermarket pads having comparable friction coefficients you probably shouldn't.

Yes, Ford's ABS calibration is pretty good - for a car with OE brake pads in street driving.

But when you start experimenting with high-mu track pads, understand that the higher mu is likely to lie outside the parameters that the ABS calibration was developed for, and that could bring on inadvertent ABS or AdvanceTrac behavior. Hence the admonishment to leave that trick for the track only.


FWIW, those of us with far more years of driving experience in cars without ABS are probably better at limit braking either to avoid lockup in a non-ABS system or avoid ABS intervention in cars that have ABS. I've been driving for about 57 years, and it's only been the last 20 of which I've owned any car that had ABS (while still keeping at least one non-ABS car for 13 of that last 20). 50 years experience w/o ABS against only 20 with any ABS at all and only 7 where all of our cars had ABS.

Anecdotal to be sure, but I've had the ABS in my '08 go inop at two track days, and the short version is that I was running faster lap times without ABS help than I could with it still active. The non-ABS lap times weren't quite as consistent, but the top two lap times and 3 of the top 4 were w/o ABS on the day that I checked that. I was running mid-level track pads (much stronger bite than OE) at the time.


Norm
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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What is the functional difference between disconnecting the ABS wire and turning off stability control using the method described in this thread? With ESC turned off using the traditional method, I've never noticed any kind of intervening on track (road courses, not 1/4, but I'm not sure why 1/4 racing would be more sensitive). I also didn't notice any difference after swapping to the Ford Racing ABS module that keeps stability control disabled.

Also, wouldn't disconnecting an ABS wire also.... disable ABS? The S197 ABS is pretty good, so I'm not sure why you would want to do that.

Because the nannies are still running in the background. In my car advancetrak off i can still launch the piss out of it and the traction control light will kick on and the car will lose power. In straightline racing that isnt what you want.
 

ddd4114

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Interesting, I wonder if I've never had an issue like that because I've never had tires that could achieve more than ~0.65g forward acceleration. Even when hot, road-race slicks will just spin before your car goes much beyond that, and without ESC the car will totally let you slide into a wall (or crowd) if you don't know what you're doing. I've been way more sideways than ESC would ever allow while enabled or in Sport mode, and I can't remember a time when the car limited power (sometimes to my detriment). Maybe the 2010 (2011?) and later ESC/ABS systems were a bit better than the previous version but I've never experienced issues with those systems failing or ESC turning back on all by itself (unless I stall the car). Maybe I'm just lucky?

Regarding the ABS, the S197 system is pretty good with street tires and honestly pretty good with slicks (at least DOT slicks) and track pads as well. My stopping distances barely changed after swapping to the Ford Racing ABS module, and that's supposed to be holy grail of OEM pony-car ABS systems at least from the era when it was released. NASA's American Iron series assesses a large penalty if you use it, but at the same time a lot of AI racers more recently have been ditching ABS to get points back so they can add power, so who knows. Again, maybe the base 2010/2011+ ABS systems were a lot better than the previous generation. Either way, I'm sure it can't touch the coveted Bosch system.
 

larry Stark

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Perhaps the car's roll and pitch inertial responses during a run can lie outside what the AdvanceTrac calibration expects to see when the steering wheel is pointed straight ahead. Or it could perhaps happen if the LF tire was getting air on the launch and sending a wheel sensor signal that didn't agree with the signals from the other sensors.



Yes, you'd lose the ABS as well. And on the street in a car that's running either stock brake pads or aftermarket pads having comparable friction coefficients you probably shouldn't.

Yes, Ford's ABS calibration is pretty good - for a car with OE brake pads in street driving.

But when you start experimenting with high-mu track pads, understand that the higher mu is likely to lie outside the parameters that the ABS calibration was developed for, and that could bring on inadvertent ABS or AdvanceTrac behavior. Hence the admonishment to leave that trick for the track only.


FWIW, those of us with far more years of driving experience in cars without ABS are probably better at limit braking either to avoid lockup in a non-ABS system or avoid ABS intervention in cars that have ABS. I've been driving for about 57 years, and it's only been the last 20 of which I've owned any car that had ABS (while still keeping at least one non-ABS car for 13 of that last 20). 50 years experience w/o ABS against only 20 with any ABS at all and only 7 where all of our cars had ABS.

Anecdotal to be sure, but I've had the ABS in my '08 go inop at two track days, and the short version is that I was running faster lap times without ABS help than I could with it still active. The non-ABS lap times weren't quite as consistent, but the top two lap times and 3 of the top 4 were w/o ABS on the day that I checked that. I was running mid-level track pads (much stronger bite than OE) at the time.


Norm
I'm also an old time racer. Been doing it for 60 years. I learned to drive on track in cars without ABS. My first ABS car was an 86 Corvette and I hated the ABS. If you stood on the brakes like you used to on cars without ABS the ABS would kick in and you would overshoot your apex point. It took awhile to get used to it but never liked ABS. It takes control away from the driver. I'll bet that today a skilled driver in the same car could outbrake the same car with the ABS turned on. My 2 cents.
 

Norm Peterson

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I'm also an old time racer. Been doing it for 60 years. I learned to drive on track in cars without ABS. My first ABS car was an 86 Corvette and I hated the ABS. If you stood on the brakes like you used to on cars without ABS the ABS would kick in and you would overshoot your apex point. It took awhile to get used to it but never liked ABS. It takes control away from the driver. I'll bet that today a skilled driver in the same car could outbrake the same car with the ABS turned on. My 2 cents.
I wouldn't be surprised, at least as long as the ABS calibration is production-stock.

I make no claims as to skill level on any absolute scale, but I have had the ABS in my '08 go offline during track sessions. My fastest two laps and three of the top 4 were fractionally faster without ABS help, at an equally small cost in consistency.


Norm
 

larry Stark

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I just had a bad experience at the track with my 2011 GT. I always run with the Advancetrac off. After a really hard rain the concrete track surface was drying. I was first group out and was really taking it easy. On a short straight slowly rolling into the throttle while accelerating the rear of the car suddenly broke loose and spun me off course. I studied in car video and was going in a straight line and my hands had not moved on the wheel prior to the spin. I did some research on You tube and there are a multitude of video compilations of Mustangs crashing in the same manner. Many people say that even though the Advancetrac is off it can turn back on again or it never really goes completely off. Does anybody really know if the Advancetrac can turn back on or never shuts off?


I found problem and solution. 1) Traction control is never turned off. It operates in background and activates when certain criteria (?) are met. Ford lied in owners manual when it says Traction Control can be turned off. It's never fully off. That's why Boss 302R and S models have a different ABS module. 2) To solve problem you have to disconnect Traction Control Module from ABS module. You have to disconnect CAN bus high signal wire from ABS module so Traction Control Module cannot instruct ABS Module to activate brakes. CAN bus wires in ABS harness (on 2011 GT) are twisted pair of White and White with Blue stripe wires. White with Blue stripe is CAN bus high wire. I cut and spliced CAN bus high wire and connected spliced wire with a waterproof Delphi connector located where I could easily disconnect it when I go to the track. I've tested it and it works. ABS works fine with wire disconnected. When reconnected ABS and traction Control work as designed by Ford. See whole install at:

https://trackmustangsonline.com/thr...y-turn-off-s197-traction-control-works.18475/
 

Pentalab

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On my 2010, you hit the switch once to shut off the traction control. "advance track off". Stopped, hold the switch down for a few seconds, then it goes into ..."sport mode". Hold it down for 15 seconds..and it's completely off. In any mode, the ABS brakes are always functioning.
I got this wrong. It's double click to go into sport mode. (foot on brake, with my 2010 auto).
 

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