Caveat Emptor.... Livernois Heads (Pic heavy)

[linkwilliams]

WOW !!!! Glad I read this.....I'm just now starting to look into some internal and head upgrades. I really hope this problem gets resolved for you guys...I guess I'm going to have to do some shopping around now

 

[hubkap]

WOW !!!! Glad I read this.....I'm just now starting to look into some internal and head upgrades. I really hope this problem gets resolved for you guys...I guess I'm going to have to do some shopping around now

Link,

Seeing where you're from, just ask Justin Burcham at JPC which heads he recommends. 'nuff said.

 

[STANMAN]

Wow, and people wonder why companies don't send their employee's into these forums to answer questions. Next thing you know even if you are trying to make it right with the OP there's 5 people in line waiting to bash you. I had a problem with one of the sponsors of this site. Nothing NEAR as severe as anything in this thread, hell it was a miniscule defect compared to what you guys are experiancing, but they came with a covered trailor and picked up my car. They stayed the night, went on the Miller Brewery tour, made a destination out of it that included picking up my car basically, and were (as they always are) awesome throughout. But it was all handled through actually calling them and talking to them. Air the dirty laundry on a public forum AFTER you have given them adequate time to fix the issues (not singling anyone out here, just in general), don't use it as a first strike. I mean I don't know this builder from Laveranues Coles, but come on calling them out on a public forum sure isn't the way to go about solving anything and will only make them never want to come on and answer ANY questions.

 

[ford20]

Wow, and people wonder why companies don't send their employee's into these forums to answer questions. Next thing you know even if you are trying to make it right with the OP there's 5 people in line waiting to bash you. I had a problem with one of the sponsors of this site. Nothing NEAR as severe as anything in this thread, hell it was a miniscule defect compared to what you guys are experiancing, but they came with a covered trailor and picked up my car. They stayed the night, went on the Miller Brewery tour, made a destination out of it that included picking up my car basically, and were (as they always are) awesome throughout. But it was all handled through actually calling them and talking to them. Air the dirty laundry on a public forum AFTER you have given them adequate time to fix the issues (not singling anyone out here, just in general), don't use it as a first strike. I mean I don't know this builder from Laveranues Coles, but come on calling them out on a public forum sure isn't the way to go about solving anything and will only make them never want to come on and answer ANY questions.

To be honest the OP tre was on his third set of Livernois heads and was in contact with Livernois before posting this and I believe back@itagain is on his third set of heads and has been to Livernois a couple of times to talk to the people about his problems. Also it seems through some searching that I have done that Livernois has had many problems with bronze guides and a couple with over sizing their ports. Than there are a couple that have had oil pooled up around their valves that are closed, I am not exactly sure if that was an issue related to the heads or if it was just something that had occurred but if someone could say that it was from the heads with proof Livernois was not at fault with that. But that being said there have been people that have had some problems.

If Livernois can go back and create a track record of having all these problems fixed only than would I be comfortable with spending over 2k on a set of their heads for my upcoming build but until then I am looking around for other heads. I hope that Liveronis gets these issues solved since I believed that they were a very good company to deal with, with some good products.

 

[STANMAN]

To be honest the OP tre was on his third set of Livernois heads and was in contact with Livernois before posting this and I believe back@itagain is on his third set of heads and has been to Livernois a couple of times to talk to the people about his problems. Also it seems through some searching that I have done that Livernois has had many problems with bronze guides and a couple with over sizing their ports. Than there are a couple that have had oil pooled up around their valves that are closed, I am not exactly sure if that was an issue related to the heads or if it was just something that had occurred but if someone could say that it was from the heads with proof Livernois was not at fault with that. But that being said there have been people that have had some problems.

If Livernois can go back and create a track record of having all these problems fixed only than would I be comfortable with spending over 2k on a set of their heads for my upcoming build but until then I am looking around for other heads. I hope that Liveronis gets these issues solved since I believed that they were a very good company to deal with, with some good products.

That's why I didn't want to single anyone in this thread out because for sure there is a time and place for dirty laundry to be aired in a public forum!!! I was just making a general comment.

 

[BruceH]

That's why I didn't want to single anyone in this thread out because for sure there is a time and place for dirty laundry to be aired in a public forum!!! I was just making a general comment.

The posters on this thread aren't the first ones who have been stonewalled by L company until they went online.

They have thousands of dollars tied up in parts that don't work after multiple tries to fix it.

IMO they are doing the Mustang community a huge favor by letting us know about the problems and how they weren't handled.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

If you look at the title of the thread it is Caveat Emptor, buyer beware. I orginally started it in the Chit Chat area. The mods decided to move it here (not complaining)

The orginal intent was to make everyone aware of what I was going through and to let others decide for themselves whether to do business with them. Thats also why I tagged it with company name and the word head.

This thread was my last resort. I tried to handle this privately and gave Livernois every oppurtunity to handle it (3 weeks of back and forth). When I was told by Dave Ameduri that the failure was due to Lash adjustment without wanting to inspect the heads personally, I had issues. I told him that this was the second failure of the same type and this was not the "excuse" given the first time. I told him if this was the position that Livernois is taking then I would have no other recourse put to post this with all the pictures I had of both failures. I was told "Go for it"

So I did, and its amazing how many phone calls I got from Livernois the day this was posted.

The thread wasn't meant to bash, it was meant to inform. Thats why Ive updated from time to time with responses from Livernois.

Supposedly the heads will be shipped to me on Monday. They will be THOURGHLY inspected before being placed back on the car.

 

[stang06girl]

If Livernois can go back and create a track record of having all these problems fixed only than would I be comfortable with spending over 2k on a set of their heads for my upcoming build but until then I am looking around for other heads. I hope that Liveronis gets these issues solved since I believed that they were a very good company to deal with, with some good products.

These heads cost allot more than 2k for a set. They run 3.2k to 3.6k for a set depending on whether or not they are stage 3 heads, or the rebranded "FRPP Hi Flow" stage 3 heads.

In regards to the guides, I understand Livernois problems with various supplier (guides / valves / springs ) companies providing parts of varying quality. What I think they need to do is perform 100 percent inspection, recording the I.D.s and O.D.s of every guide, the cyl head guide bores, and the seals as well.

In regards to the o-ring issue, they need to back away from the o-ring goove in the fore / aft direction, leaving adequate margin to account for tolerances of the stock intake if not for the tolerances for the more popular SC intakes (Whipple / Kenne Bell, and a few others) and maybe try to match the manifold intake port shape a bit more.

 

[ford20]

These heads cost allot more than 2k for a set. They run 3.2k to 3.6k for a set depending on whether or not they are stage 3 heads, or the rebranded "FRPP Hi Flow" stage 3 heads.

In regards to the guides, I understand Livernois problems with various supplier (guides / valves / springs ) companies providing parts of varying quality. What I think they need to do is perform 100 percent inspection, recording the I.D.s and O.D.s of every guide, the cyl head guide bores, and the seals as well.

In regards to the o-ring issue, they need to back away from the o-ring goove in the fore / aft direction, leaving adequate margin to account for tolerances of the stock intake if not for the tolerances for the more popular SC intakes (Whipple / Kenne Bell, and a few others) and maybe try to match the manifold intake port shape a bit more.

Well I was talking about stage 2 heads as a base line which cost around 2k.

If they could prove that the heads that they send out match their tolerances, than I think that it would go a long way in helping solve their issues until they can be certain that all bad heads are no longer being sold and try and do damage control on the heads that have had issues.

 

[Flapjack]

Been following this thread and I must say, while it sucks, at least Livernois is working on it. The OP's story is almost identical to mine, except that the company was MMR and I waited until the third failure. Unfortunately for me, the first two valve failures took out cylinders. MMR rebuilt the engine (not originally built by them), but after the third failure, I sent the engine to RGR for inspection. As you can imagine, things were found to be wrong. I wrote MMR a letter and got a call from Mark. After some discussion, he opted to replace the engine with an MMR 1000 long block built to my specs and warrantied to produce it's advertised power. We both washed our hands of the head issues and I had JPC/RGR build my stage 3 heads and design my cam.

A lot of people (including myself) have had a lot of bad things to say about MMR, but I've been thinking a lot about this.

It seems every time this happens with a company, it's during a period of growth. Usually, the company has an established reputation and when things go wrong, people shrug it off at first. If things keep happening, it gets to where it is with MMR, and now Livernois.

In just about every industry, I've seen companies struggle with growth. I'm a government contractor and have been in three companies that saw more growth than than they could handle at the time. Each time, customers were really, really pissed off.

Companies seem to vary with how they handle this growth, as only someone with significant business experience can understand how to best prepare for this. A lot of that also depends on available capital. You need to invest capital before you can truly handle growth, and that takes guts, as if you overestimate your growth, you could be out an investment.

FWIW, the only Mustang vendor I've seen handle growth well has been JPC. Much of that has been because Justin stays so engaged on so many levels of business. Of course, that has to take a personal toll as well.

The past few years have taught me a lot. Most importantly, it is to stop whatever discussion is happening and address the larger problem. I think the OP did that, but others may have just bowed out and never given the company a chance to make it right. Just as Mark at MMR changed got involved and helped with me with my issue, Mike at Livernois seems to be doing the same. I think the customers and companies learn a lot due to these issues that they wouldn't if the customer doesn't doesn't give them a chance to fix them.

At any rate, that's my piece. I still have a knot in my gut when I think about firing up the new engine for the first time, but I already know I've been through the worst and survived. Here's hoping the OP, myself, and others get through this kinda shit.

 

[Flapjack]

Oh, and if it helps, I can post up pics of my JPC/RGR stage 3 heads.

 

[BruceH]

These heads cost allot more than 2k for a set. They run 3.2k to 3.6k for a set depending on whether or not they are stage 3 heads, or the rebranded "FRPP Hi Flow" stage 3 heads.

In regards to the guides, I understand Livernois problems with various supplier (guides / valves / springs ) companies providing parts of varying quality. What I think they need to do is perform 100 percent inspection, recording the I.D.s and O.D.s of every guide, the cyl head guide bores, and the seals as well.

In regards to the o-ring issue, they need to back away from the o-ring goove in the fore / aft direction, leaving adequate margin to account for tolerances of the stock intake if not for the tolerances for the more popular SC intakes (Whipple / Kenne Bell, and a few others) and maybe try to match the manifold intake port shape a bit more.

As much as I hate it, this is where ISO certification would of helped. They could of identified all the bad or suspect heads with the questionable guides and recalled them.

 

[Back@itagain]

Air the dirty laundry on a public forum AFTER you have given them adequate time to fix the issues (not singling anyone out here, just in general), don't use it as a first strike. I mean I don't know this builder from Laveranues Coles, but come on calling them out on a public forum sure isn't the way to go about solving anything and will only make them never want to come on and answer ANY questions.

I see Tre already addressed this issue but seeing that I also, as well as any Mustang enthusiast, have a proverbial dog in this fight. I thought I had already clearified this but again for those just joining, I made several attempts to communicate face to face and via email (which I did save) with Andy Ricketts regarding the over cutting of the intake ports. Based on responses like we have litteral sold thousands of these heads, our ports are on the fastest 2v, 3v and 4v or our ports flat work, I am left with the impression that Livernois is unwilling to listen to its customers especially when criticizing their products.

The inability to communicate effectively with their customers even lead to myself and a good friend (also forum member) having a sit down meeting with Dan Millen and another Livernois employee. To this date I still tell Dan they have not learned to communicate with their customers. I can only assume after years of being in the business and dealing with a wide array of customers they have drawn their own conclusions regarding "us", the customer.

Over the last couple years and all the issues I have experienced in what should be a funfilled life experience I have found the best way to get Livernois's attention is on the forums. They are very quick on the damage control and do this very well. They realize the selling power at stake in these forums and that there is nothing more powerful than word of mouth or keyboard as it would be.

So this is not a "first strike". Nothing in here has been an attack. Only facts have been presented. These are simply attempts to express our concerns in a community with similar interests. I would think that making everyone a more educated consumer would be beneficial.

The posters on this thread aren't the first ones who have been stonewalled by L company until they went online.

They have thousands of dollars tied up in parts that don't work after multiple tries to fix it.

IMO they are doing the Mustang community a huge favor by letting us know about the problems and how they weren't handled.

Thanks Bruce!

 

[hubkap]

Oh, and if it helps, I can post up pics of my JPC/RGR stage 3 heads.

So can I!

And I agree 100% with your previous comments about these vendors and JPC specifically. Before I spent a single dollar at JPC, Justin answered every email and phone call I placed. Did he need to? No. Does that kind of thing take a toll on him? Yes - I agree with you.

But a hands-on owner who DOES communicate like that is why I chose them to build my car / engine. Have there been bumps in the road? Of course - at my hp level stuff breaks. But I know Justin is just a phone call / email away...

 

[Back@itagain]

So can I!

And I agree 100% with your previous comments about these vendors and JPC specifically. Before I spent a single dollar at JPC, Justin answered every email and phone call I placed. Did he need to? No. Does that kind of thing take a toll on him? Yes - I agree with you.

But a hands-on owner who DOES communicate like that is why I chose them to build my car / engine. Have there been bumps in the road? Of course - at my hp level stuff breaks. But I know Justin is just a phone call / email away...

I definitely have to second you on that Jaime. I purchased, and made what I feel was an unbiased review somewhere in this forum, Justin's "Monster" inlet system for the Whipple. I immediately ran into issues and called his shop. Justin personally returned my call and rather than telling me how great it works and I must be looking for an argument, he proactively solicited my opinions on how to make his product better. Great customer service!

In the spirit of full disclosure, Dan Millen is capable of the same and was a very strong contributing factor in my decision to use Livernois. Dan use to race at our local track and I can specifically recall one evening he exited early. I ran into him in the pits and his first question to me was if I was enjoying my car. He did not even make a peep or even seem disturbed about losing! He is an excellent people person.

Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on where you are standing) Dan's business and racing career has grown and he is not as accessible. By the time things get to him I think they have already been filtered and spun by his employees.

 

[markag]

after reading through all of this, and hearing the feedback from other forums, I think I am going to avoid Livernois in the future if I ever decide to get new heads for my 08 GT.

 

[skwerl]

Way to jump on the bandwagon there,

You don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[hubkap]

Way to jump on the bandwagon there,

You don't have a dog in this fight.

Do you??

 

[Flapjack]

If OP doesn't mind, I'll post the pics here. Got a few PMs regarding them, so this will be easier.

@Tre
Let me know if you want these out. Don't want you to think I'm thread crapping... just think showing everyone how correctly done heads are done will help everyone reading (I say that with the assumption that RGR stuff is as good as everyone says it is... haven't run them yet).

 

[Back@itagain]

Do you??

Oh wait...I forgot since it is someone's first post it nullifies any other forum experience, car experience, consumer experience or any other experience for that matter!

Glad to see this thread has finally gotten to name calling but I figured it would have either came from myself, Tre, Belinda or another forum member who has had and shared a similar experience...like I previously said in this very thread, every Mustang owner has a dog in this fit. The best consumer protection is when we look out for each other. Do you think big companies will especially if we never speak up?

Anyway, welcome to the S197 forum markag.