Caveat Emptor.... Livernois Heads (Pic heavy)

[Department Of Boost]

We will see. The new heads will be inspected thourghly. To include the measurement of the ports in relation to the C and L manifold. I'll report results.

He didn't say the ports match.............................just that they haven't had any "problems".

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Tre that's an expensive I don't know if they'll work summary.

 

[Back@itagain]

He didn't say the ports match.............................just that they haven't had any "problems".

Its like a bad rash...ignore it and it will just go away.

 

[mike@livernois]

Yeah, I agree, considering the first failure I had this was not the explanation given. (although the symptoms were similar) Now its something different and they admit fault yet they try and backhandly throw it on the installer. Interesting indeed. But I will still give Livernois credit for replacing the heads. They "Manned" up where other vendors usually won't. Thank God its not a BBR Hellion system im having trouble with.

Oh and Mike and you say you have nothing to do with the cylinder head department?

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikeschropp


Small quote: "I am working at Livernois Motorsports in charge of the engine, cylinder head, machine and CNC cylinder head departments. I handle the majority of new product development at the company. Many of the products and components I designed or helped design are the industry standard in their respective areas."

Sorry, have not been on in a couple of days. Been working in the back and not had computer time as such.

Guess I have not been on LinkedIn in a couple of years. That statement was true a couple of years ago, I did used to oversee all of those departments. But things have changed a lot since then, we are structured in individual departments now and I pretty much deal with engine build exclusively and there are other people that handle the head department and CNC areas.

I only help out in other areas when I'm asked too, otherwise I usually just stick with engine build stuff.

Thanks

 

[mike@livernois]

After reading this post I have just a couple questions:

1) Since Livernois has CNC’d these cylinder heads to such a tight tolerance not leaving any room for other variables based off the factory intake manifold, is it Livernois’ position that only the factory manifold can be guaranteed to seal properly with the Livernois cylinder heads?

2) Since the cylinder heads were designed using these tight tolerances based of the factory manifold, how do you make “max power” when the factory manifold is the limiting factor in this equation?

3) According to the Livernois website, you guys sell and install the FRPP/Whipple, Magancharger, etc. to your customers.

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/2005%252d2010-Mustang-GT-Performance-Package-3.html

http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/2005%252d2010-Mustang-GT-Performance-Package-2.html

What do you tell these guys when their manifolds don’t seal to your cylinder heads? I assume that you have put a set of your heads and a PD blower on the same car???

I guess Ford will put the Blue Oval seal of approval on anything now a days….

Missed this when just reading through. I'll try and answer.

The original port CNC is setup against the stock manifold. I don't have a lot of info or feedback on the cylinder heads myself as I tend to just be involved with engine stuff. So I asked some of the sales guys if they had heard reports or had customers tell them that they had o-ring issues with ports. I was told that no one had any issues that they were aware of.

I've seen the o-rings from the blower intake on Brians car and by looking at what is there it seems like the port is really close, so if things were shifted and pushed one way or the other on install, or the machine work on the manifold was a little off I could see how this could be close and possibly cause an issue. So given this I suggested that the cylinder head department look into adding just a little bit of fudge factor and pulling the port in ever so slightly at that corners to try and allow for variables.

To my knowledge the vehicle side of the shop does a fair amount of installs and they do often use our heads and install blowers. I've not received any feedback though from the mechanics or anyone after inquiring though in regards to this specific problem. But that's not to say the possibility does not exist that it could be too close for comfort, that's why I suggested making a small tweak on the port to eliminate that chance.

As for the manifold, heads and power production I would say its like most engine combos where just head work is done. The heads will increase power even with a stock manifold, but more power could be had with a better manifold or a ported version. I guess I assume Rick was trying to say that the heads themselves were ported to the max when working with the limits of the manifold dimensions. Upon looking at the findings though and seeing as how close it is I myself feel going a little bit on the safe side might be better, thus pulling in the edges of the port just a little bit is probably a good idea.

If you have other questions just ask, I might not have an immediate answer or know off the top of my head, but I can do the legwork and talk to the people that would hopefully know, or try and figure it out for myself and give an answer.

Thanks

 

[Back@itagain]

Missed this when just reading through. I'll try and answer.

The original port CNC is setup against the stock manifold. I don't have a lot of info or feedback on the cylinder heads myself as I tend to just be involved with engine stuff. So I asked some of the sales guys if they had heard reports or had customers tell them that they had o-ring issues with ports. I was told that no one had any issues that they were aware of.

I've seen the o-rings from the blower intake on Brians car and by looking at what is there it seems like the port is really close, so if things were shifted and pushed one way or the other on install, or the machine work on the manifold was a little off I could see how this could be close and possibly cause an issue. So given this I suggested that the cylinder head department look into adding just a little bit of fudge factor and pulling the port in ever so slightly at that corners to try and allow for variables.

To my knowledge the vehicle side of the shop does a fair amount of installs and they do often use our heads and install blowers. I've not received any feedback though from the mechanics or anyone after inquiring though in regards to this specific problem. But that's not to say the possibility does not exist that it could be too close for comfort, that's why I suggested making a small tweak on the port to eliminate that chance.

As for the manifold, heads and power production I would say its like most engine combos where just head work is done. The heads will increase power even with a stock manifold, but more power could be had with a better manifold or a ported version. I guess I assume Rick was trying to say that the heads themselves were ported to the max when working with the limits of the manifold dimensions. Upon looking at the findings though and seeing as how close it is I myself feel going a little bit on the safe side might be better, thus pulling in the edges of the port just a little bit is probably a good idea.

If you have other questions just ask, I might not have an immediate answer or know off the top of my head, but I can do the legwork and talk to the people that would hopefully know, or try and figure it out for myself and give an answer.

Thanks

Livernois sold me and installed my FRPP/Whipple (Gen I after the Gen II had already been released without even discussing it). Livernois sold me and installed Stage 3 cylinder heads which were "new castings" which I had to wait a ridiculous amount of time for while Livernois developed their, now obvioulsy problematic, CNC program. All the while Dan told me believed these heads would out flow the old program. (I see why now considering I have measured ports on both). Turns out these cylinder heads received bronze guides from the "bad batch".

Livernois subsequently replaced these with a set of old cores with the old style spark plug and reinstalled the FRPP/Whipple. (Found this out after the fact when I went to remove the spark plugs when the car was FINALLY returned to me). These replacements heads will not seal and even have a suspect valve guide...given the track record of all this Im pretty sure we know where the problem is.

Mike I handed you four of my gaskets to include this gasket in the picture which obviously failed. Every one of my gaskets show some level of damage. You guys know my car is in pieces right now so it would be very easy and quick to make things right...So when should I expect the Livernois flat bed to pick up my car to have my new cylinder heads installed?

 

[ethic1]

O snap things getting good!

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

[mike@livernois]

Livernois sold me and installed my FRPP/Whipple (Gen I after the Gen II had already been released without even discussing it). Livernois sold me and installed Stage 3 cylinder heads which were "new castings" which I had to wait a ridiculous amount of time for while Livernois developed their, now obvioulsy problematic, CNC program. All the while Dan told me believed these heads would out flow the old program. (I see why now considering I have measured ports on both). Turns out these cylinder heads received bronze guides from the "bad batch".

Livernois subsequently replaced these with a set of old cores with the old style spark plug and reinstalled the FRPP/Whipple. (Found this out after the fact when I went to remove the spark plugs when the car was FINALLY returned to me). These replacements heads will not seal and even have a suspect valve guide...given the track record of all this Im pretty sure we know where the problem is.

Mike I handed you four of my gaskets to include this gasket in the picture which obviously failed. Every one of my gaskets show some level of damage. You guys know my car is in pieces right now so it would be very easy and quick to make things right...So when should I expect the Livernois flat bed to pick up my car to have my new cylinder heads installed?

As you know I'm sorry to hear that you have had problems with the heads and that your experience has not been a good one. Honestly an apology from me probably does not mean much though, I'm new to this situation and have only been working with you a short time now. I'm not really that familiar with the history of the car or heads but that's just a byproduct of not working in those departments so I have little contact with that stuff.

I don't have the power or authority to make decisions on customer things. I can only speak to and relay information to management. I thought last I heard that you had spoken with Dan and were going to bring the intake in to look at? I've been in the back of the shop on a project the last couple of days however so I've had little interaction outside of that, so if this happened I might not know about it. Is this still the plan that is happening?

If you need immediate assistance currently Dan or Rick are the best people to go to since I'm tied up working on a machine right now and don't have much computer access time. If you can't get a hold of anyone though you can always send me a PM or email me and when I get computer time that day I'll be sure to get you in touch with one of those guys.

Thanks

 

[Back@itagain]

As you know I'm sorry to hear that you have had problems with the heads and that your experience has not been a good one. Honestly an apology from me probably does not mean much though, I'm new to this situation and have only been working with you a short time now. I'm not really that familiar with the history of the car or heads but that's just a byproduct of not working in those departments so I have little contact with that stuff.

I don't have the power or authority to make decisions on customer things. I can only speak to and relay information to management. I thought last I heard that you had spoken with Dan and were going to bring the intake in to look at? I've been in the back of the shop on a project the last couple of days however so I've had little interaction outside of that, so if this happened I might not know about it. Is this still the plan that is happening?

If you need immediate assistance currently Dan or Rick are the best people to go to since I'm tied up working on a machine right now and don't have much computer access time. If you can't get a hold of anyone though you can always send me a PM or email me and when I get computer time that day I'll be sure to get you in touch with one of those guys.

Thanks

Mike,

Remachining the Whipple manifold Livernois sold me is not such an agreeable option in light of this recent tacit admission and given all the surrounding complications I have already high lighted. These events also leave doubts as to the machining capabilities of Livernois and I do not wish take the risk of ruining another part in an effort to cover up a problem created by Livernois' over zealous CNC program. This proposed resolution could still potentially create additional problems which could easily be avoided.

Rick, I know you are monitoring this thread also. This is part of what you are paid to do...not to mention you have already replied in this thread twice. Feel free to PM me with a good day and time next week and I will come down to the shop to discuss a resolution.

Thanks

Brian

 

[hubkap]

If you need immediate assistance currently Dan or Rick are the best people to go to since I'm tied up working on a machine right now and don't have much computer access time. If you can't get a hold of anyone though you can always send me a PM or email me and when I get computer time that day I'll be sure to get you in touch with one of those guys.

Thanks

Jeez Brian, no wonder they had your car for the better part of a year! Anybody reading this and thinking about new heads, consider RGR. Personal service, outperform Livernois, etc.

 

[jrglenni]

Jeez Brian, no wonder they had your car for the better part of a year! Anybody reading this and thinking about new heads, consider RGR. Personal service, outperform Livernois, etc.

I had a set of Livernois heads in my future plans but given Brian's, Tre's,and so many others' issues combined with the attempts from Livernois to downplay their responsibilities in all these cases, I am certainly going tolook elsewhere when my time comes. I feel bad for all of you for having to deal with this crap, but thank you from the rest of us for giving us a heads up.

 

[sheizasosay]

I'm glad I found this out before and not after. Livernois....expected more out of you. Multiple problems of similar nature and they send someone more "removed" from the problem to do damage control (you). Probably not a bad move except it seems like your own guys are leaving you high and dry. Or your not that removed from the problem/CNC dept and that is worse. Stop bullsh1tting and fix what you screwed up. Eventually it's ginna be too late to do the right thing and you will lose support. Ray Charles could see you effed up. People have hearts. Everybody and their brother messes up, it's what you do to fix it that shows the character.

 

[hubkap]

I'm glad I found this out before and not after. Livernois....expected more out of you. Multiple problems of similar nature and they send someone more "removed" from the problem to do damage control (you). Probably not a bad move except it seems like your own guys are leaving you high and dry. Stop bullsh1tting and fix what you screwed up. People have hearts. Everybody and their brother messes up, it's what you do to fix it that shows the character.

There's a reason my builder / tuner talked me out of Livervois heads. Yeah - he sells them but back when I had my latest engine built went with RGR FTW!

 

[redruder]

I was looking at Livernois but changed my mind after watching this issue take place how long they had Brian's car for them to only jack things up and then give him the ultimate runaround. It's ok to try something new and have something not workout but fix it with what you know does work without putting your customer through this crap. Livernois you will have some work to do in order to regain the trust that you will not just keep passing a an unsatisfied customer off until they hopefully get tired of calling. For supposed professional an engine building/machine shop this pathetic and if I were the owner would be unacceptable.

 

[05stroker]

I would have thought that flatbed would have come by now.

 

[klaw]

I've been following this thread and feel terrible for the guys caught up in this problem. I've also been nervous since I built my engine in the spring of 2009 using a Livernois 298 stroker shortblock and their stage III heads (at least that's what I ordered). I've had my Whipple off the car three times since the original build (for clutch/slave issues) and have never noticed any seal issues with the Whipple intake. To tell you the honest truth, I never noticed what guides were in the heads when I put the motor together, I ordered stage III heads and assumed that that's what I got. I've had a look at the pics from the build and it's hard to tell but I think the guides do not appear to be bronze. I've posted links to the few pics I have of the heads in case any experts can tell me what stage/version they appear to be. Having said that, the motor makes good power (629 RWHP @ 14psi) and hasn't given me any other issues. I'll pay specific attention to the seals/guides next time I have the blower off. Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone - however painful.

 

[crownaviation]

Livernois sold me and installed my FRPP/Whipple (Gen I after the Gen II had already been released without even discussing it). Livernois sold me and installed Stage 3 cylinder heads which were "new castings" which I had to wait a ridiculous amount of time for while Livernois developed their, now obvioulsy problematic, CNC program. All the while Dan told me believed these heads would out flow the old program. (I see why now considering I have measured ports on both). Turns out these cylinder heads received bronze guides from the "bad batch".

Livernois subsequently replaced these with a set of old cores with the old style spark plug and reinstalled the FRPP/Whipple. (Found this out after the fact when I went to remove the spark plugs when the car was FINALLY returned to me). These replacements heads will not seal and even have a suspect valve guide...given the track record of all this Im pretty sure we know where the problem is.

Mike I handed you four of my gaskets to include this gasket in the picture which obviously failed. Every one of my gaskets show some level of damage. You guys know my car is in pieces right now so it would be very easy and quick to make things right...So when should I expect the Livernois flat bed to pick up my car to have my new cylinder heads installed?

Wow, glad to hear all this before wasting my cash and getting whatever and who knows what... and not told about it.. sick...

Sorry to hear all you people are having these problems. Not to mention all the hard earned and time down... down the toilet. Changed my plans. Thanks for sharing your stories, watching out for each other... priceless

 

[Back@itagain]

I've been following this thread and feel terrible for the guys caught up in this problem. I've also been nervous since I built my engine in the spring of 2009 using a Livernois 298 stroker shortblock and their stage III heads (at least that's what I ordered). I've had my Whipple off the car three times since the original build (for clutch/slave issues) and have never noticed any seal issues with the Whipple intake. To tell you the honest truth, I never noticed what guides were in the heads when I put the motor together, I ordered stage III heads and assumed that that's what I got. I've had a look at the pics from the build and it's hard to tell but I think the guides do not appear to be bronze. I've posted links to the few pics I have of the heads in case any experts can tell me what stage/version they appear to be. Having said that, the motor makes good power (629 RWHP @ 14psi) and hasn't given me any other issues. I'll pay specific attention to the seals/guides next time I have the blower off. Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone - however painful.

Those look like the bronze in the photo of the exhaust ports. Im glad to hear you have had good success with your Livernois products. When did you buy your heads? If I remember correctly, I think I pm'd you on another forum regarding your Steeda 10 rib and setup so I would bet you have the pre-fugup heads. Im sure you would have noticed the wear and tear on the gaskets if you have pulled the blower off a few times since....(edit)Nevermind. I see you did your build around 2009...all the pretty pictures of a good set of working heads had me distracted.

I do know that when the big push for all brand new castings instead of cores came around(April 2010 time frame), Livernois developed a new CNC program and ran into some issues where they were cutting too close to the water jackets. I was also told by a Livernois employee that they had to "recalibrate" their flow bench to whatever the accepted industry standard during this same time period was (not sure what all this was about). I also know their port size went from 2.5XX" (a good amount of surface contact left to protect the gasket) to 2.6605". I was also given a flow sheet in April 2010 from a Livernois employee for the new CNC program that showed the heads flowed 290.6 cfm at .700" lift. Anyone know what Livernois was claiming prior to April 2010?

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

I thought I remember seeing they claimed over 300, dont remember the exact number

 

[white05gt]

One of chevykillers old posts has them in it because I remember him posting about his 3r heads that flowed what the stage 3 heads are suppose to flow.