Caveat Emptor.... Livernois Heads (Pic heavy)

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Tre06GTP1SC

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The guides are within spec.

Dan Millen is going to personally call L&R tomorrow to find out what they believe is "in spec". Your shop may disagree with what we believe is "in spec", but they left our shop correct. I spoke to Dan tonight and he said you wouldn't have any issues, but now if the car smokes or you have guide issues, it's on you because they were disassembled and modified from what we consider correct.

-Rick

I never said they werent in spec. I said He (Derek) felt they werent clearenced enough considering the boost ( which you should have known, because I told Dave my setup and purpose)that is going to be thrown at them. Other than that and the shavings from casting found in the heads no other issues were found. He said the valve job, ports, lash, etc all looked good.


Tre sorry for your trouble, I guess Livernois did stand behind our product. Just to keep everyone honest, I will be calling L an R engines an would like to know what type of CNC machine they are using to check the ports? Usually to check the ports for accuracy and symmetry, a full digitize should of been done on the heads. Not sure they have this type of equipment but nevertheless I want to at least do my part an keep everyone honest including Livernois and make sure we did what we said we did, an L an R is doing what you said they did to insure the ports are "CNC matched". On the valve guide clearance its a matter of opinion on what they should be, IMO most shops have there own spec on what they think is correct, and what we think is correct. Its not fair to Livernois or the readers of this post to say the "clearance was to tight" when in fact these heads were looked over with a fine tooth comb at Livernois to insure they are correct to Livernois tolerance. We sent them to you correct an now they have been changed by L an R, thus if you do have problems with any part of the heads your now opening yourself up for a finger pointing match if you do infact have problems. If it was me I would want to hold Livernois responsible especially if this is something Livernois should be liable for. By having another shop disassemble these heads its now there responsibility to warranty these.

Tre is seems like you have been fairly patient if you get a second give me a shout tomorrow 313-561-5500 ext 113. If I dont answer give Rick a call at ext 106 he can reach me as well. I would like to go over everything with you an your experience.

Thanks


Dan


Dan,

beleive it or not, I didnt start this post to bash, I posted it because I was fed up with the excuses given by Dave Amerduri. I was tired of being blamed for a failure that had happened before and that you (livernois) made right the first time. Mike Schropp saw this post and stepped up and made an effort to get this right. AND I appreciate what he did. (in fact he sent me a PM today as a follow up, which I find admirable)

As far as having L&R dissamble the heads. Can you blame me? Twice bitten, and the car has never been down the track. This has cost me a short block and a lot of labor having a third party (L&R) diagnose the cause. Im an honest guy, If I had been racing the car, you would have not heard any complaints from me. Also since L&R disassembled and made adjustments to the heads, if I have any issues from the changes he made to the tolerances of the guides you will not get any complaints from me.

I orginally purchased these heads while deployed, and I bought them based on your reputation, and the number of high HP cars running your stuff. Ive spent ALOT (not just the heads) of money with Livernois. What galled me to no end was the way I was treated by Dave after this second failure. No shit Dan, when I told him I was going to post this thread here with pictures, after he told me that you werent going to do anything because it was my fault, Dave told me to "Go for it". :dead2:


Dan, I appreciate you posting here. There are other vendors here with customer service problems and the owner is no where to be found. I encourage you to call Derek. I told Dave orginally that someone needed to call him (that knew what they were doing) to find the issue. Because the orginal bottom line was to find out the cause, and to ensure it didnt happen again.

In closing, my intentions weren't for this thread to devolve into what it did. The orginal intent was to post my experience and your lack of response and to let others decide whether or not to do business with you. I will call you in the morning.
 
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Tre06GTP1SC

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I just got off the phone with Dan.

Dan, I appreciate the time you took with me this morning.

I think there was a lot of misunderstanding, misperceptions, miscommunication (on both sides) that took place that lead it down this path. I also think it lead to frustrations on both sides that could have been solved before it spun this far out of control.

I am pleased that Livernois took care of the problem. As far as I am concerned Livernois and I are square. The guide tolerances that were changed were done based on another builders opinion. Everything else about the heads looked great and I have confidence that I will no longer have any issues.

After talking everything out with Dan this morning I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again.
 

Dan Millen

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I just got off the phone with Dan.

Dan, I appreciate the time you took with me this morning.

I think there was a lot of misunderstanding, misperceptions, miscommunication (on both sides) that took place that lead it down this path. I also think it lead to frustrations on both sides that could have been solved before it spun this far out of control.

I am pleased that Livernois took care of the problem. As far as I am concerned Livernois and I are square. The guide tolerances that were changed were done based on another builders opinion. Everything else about the heads looked great and I have confidence that I will no longer have any issues.

After talking everything out with Dan this morning I wouldn't hesitate to do business with them again.

Tre,

Thanks for calling, I dont think I need to call L an R, we agree that the tolerance on the guides are engine builder opinion.

I was gonna go into a long post again but you summed it up fairly good. We do agree that both sides could of done things differently.

Again thanks for you time!

Dan
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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Dan, from an outsiders viewpoint its nice to see an owner of a company stepping it up and resolving/communicating with the customer.


Tre, get you car done man, we have a track waiting for it...........
 

Back@itagain

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Please don’t speak and put words in my mouth...this he said, she said is very, very misleading to many people.

You stated that "Dan Millen and Rick LeBlanc called me to discuss this issue. Right off the bat, Dan indicated, in not so many words, he thought mine and "that girl's" (regarding stang06girl), posts and pictures were ridiculous."

I NEVER, EVER said anything about “that girls” and painted a picture that her posts were ridiculous. That’s BS and I’m sorry to the girl who thought I trash talked her.

Again your stories are not correct, you’re talking about having a meeting with me, I never ever had a meeting scheduled with you.

Months ago, I said to you “bring the intake to the shop and we can fix the intake” That’s what I said.

Please, if you’re going quote someone, don’t quote a something that’s not true. I talked to Rick and neither one of us said anything about pictures being ridiculous! I understand you’re frustrated. You are basically painting a picture that Livernois is a horrible company doesn’t stand behind what we do. That couldn’t be further from the truth. I personally went above and beyond on your heads and we did a custom program and tweaked your heads. I did this based off of your build and thought it would be awesome that you had a really bad ass set of heads!

Dan,

In no way, shape or form am I putting words in your mouth. I have very limited contact with you guys so your words resonate with me. Based on my experience with your shop and problems communicating, I have gone to the extent of memorializing these contacts in the forms of email, notes, etc. You on the other hand, I would hope, have contact with hundreds of customers, vendors, manufacturers etc. on a weekly basis and doing so would probably hinder your ability to effectively manage your time.

With regards to this conversation, do you mean to tell me you didn’t start that conversation off already upset? Your tone and comments regarding my posts in this forum and FRPP seemed to indicate otherwise. Do you also mean to tell me you didn’t say you viewed “that girls” pictures and said the Kenne Bell manifold looked perfect as it was right on the edge?

Take another look at my post. I used words like “in summary” and “in not so many words”. I think it clearly indicates I am not quoting you unless otherwise indicated by quotation marks; however, I do believe I appropriately described the tone of the conversation.

Since Im here I figure I may as well expound upon my last post. In summary, on January 31, 2012, Dan Millen and Rick LeBlanc called me to discuss this issue. Right off the bat Dan indicated, in not so many words, he thought mine and "that girl's" (regarding stang06girl), posts and pictures were ridiculous

I stand by my quote and her name is Belinda for future reference.


I considered you a friend, I gave you my personal cell, and you called me when I was racing. We talked shop, we talked about your car, my race car.... So now Livernois did something that you don’t approve of. Did we take into consideration all the differences in the Whipple intake from stock? No we didn’t, Livernois should have looked a little closer, I admit that, I have been racing and modifying cars for several years. This stuff is tough and sometimes everything doesn't go perfect. You have a custom engine with custom parts, not OEM. This stuff happens time and time again. I suggested, Mike suggested several fixes to work on the intake to make it acceptable. It’s not something that I haven’t done to street cars and race cars over the years, modify a part to make it better. I told you, and Mike told you let us modify the gasket area and it will be fine. Let us work on the intake, correct the port mismatch and be done with the project. For that matter anyone who has our heads with a Whipple who is concerned, send the intake in and we can correct it for free! When air goes from the supercharger to the intake, you always want the heads larger than the intake. You don’t want the airflow running into a wall by a small port in the heads, and in a perfect world the intake will fit with no issues and no air leaks. I am very disappointed, and frankly everyone at our shop is disappointed in the way you twist words around on what "we" say. Everyone is scared to even talk to you because you misinterpret or misunderstand what is explained, then you post what you think can get you the most attention and portray that Livernois is screwing you on everything we do.

Since most of this is the same argument you posed to me during the original build I will reiterate my previous response for the sake of the readers…

As I told you then, I am very clear in my questions and selective of the language I use as to avoid any confuse or ambiguity. In my line of work, most questions start with “Before I ask any questions, you have the right to an attorney”. That being said, I know the importance of clear communication.

Accordingly, I have taken every effort to communicate clearly with you and your employees. As you should remember, we have directly discussed this issue on numerous occasions. I will admit that I am a “demanding” customer but only to the extent that I expect to get what I pay for and that the responses you or your employees provide me are correct and accurate. I will not apologize for being any different. I’m sure from your perspective it would be great if all customers simply accepted what Livernois tells them without question.

In regards to the custom engine statements, when I asked your former employee for a spec sheet on the engine, I was told this was an off the shelf build therefore I would not be receiving a spec sheet…so do I not expect this information to be correct now? I do wish to believe your comments regarding the port work on these cylinder heads but I also find the timing suspect. If this was the case it should have been addressed during the aforementioned phone call…and after looking at Belinda’s pictures again, did she also get the special CNC treatment (Don’t worry! That one is rhetorical)?

To me, this is very similar to the lesson learned after Livernois swapped my brand new castings back to the old casting cylinder heads without discussing the issue with me prior to. As you told me during the delays encountered during the initial build and related to the swap to the new castings (not a verbatim resuscitation), the new CNC program would outperform the old style castings and was worth the wait. You also told me Livernois was not the type of shop to charge or tell customers they would install or do certain work only to not do it and profit from these misleadings (again, this is not a quote but the impression you gave me based on your selection of words). However, at the end of the day, I now have the old castings which I might add are the subject of a current class action law suit against Ford.

We did discuss this issue back then and you led me to believe the swap was done since the old style castings seal better. I feel I was an understandable customer at the time and accepted your convenient and after the fact supporting argument; however, there is a reoccurring theme here…

Honestly, if I as a reader of stuff you say, I would never do business with Livernois. The fact of the matter is we don’t screw people, we have don tons of heads on tons of cars. Lots of three valves, I believe our heads are on the fastest two, three, and four valve vehicles in the country.

I have tried to do nothing other than portray a factual unbiased recount of the events which I have experienced. If reading my account of your own and the actions of your employees makes you feel this way than I am sorry to hear it. (Might want to think about changing them…just a suggestion). I think my posts have been very fair and accurate which is illustrated in this one:

In the spirit of full disclosure, Dan Millen is capable of the same and was a very strong contributing factor in my decision to use Livernois. Dan use to race at our local track and I can specifically recall one evening he exited early. I ran into him in the pits and his first question to me was if I was enjoying my car. He did not even make a peep or even seem disturbed about losing! He is an excellent people person.
Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on where you are standing) Dan's business and racing career has grown and he is not as accessible. By the time things get to him I think they have already been filtered and spun by his employees.

The port you have is exactly the same port as the fastest three valve car in the country. I’m sorry that you think Mike said we are no longer using the program you or the fastest 3V car in the country have. The fact is we don’t use this port everyday!!
I think that is great you guys can make that claim…now just do it repeatedly, every time and maybe the tone of these threads will swing in your favor.

You’re asking Mike about your heads and posting stuff that’s not correct, changing CNC machines, that’s just not true. I personally had a custom program ran for your heads.

I am at a bit of a loss for words here…again you mean to tell me you sat on this information during all our prior disagreements which resulted from the problems encountered during the initial build? After I called you out for swapping the castings from the new to the old? It isn’t until now that you divulge this information. I find that extremely difficult to believe.

To address my meeting with Mike Schropp, based on part conversation and PMs with him, I visited the shop expecting to speak with both Mike and yourself regarding the manifold/cylinder heads. When I arrived Mike apologized and said you were not available. The fact that you weren’t there really had no significance to me other than the fact it was a rather refreshing meeting in the sense that I got to deal face to face with someone that I felt honestly expressed a genuine concern for the issues I raised. After dealing directly with Mike Schropp, I have come to the opinion he is straight forward, honest and enjoys the challenge of finding an agreeable solution with the customer. (You need to hire more of him if I might make another suggestion).

In my post, I am simply relaying the information as it was provided to me during a meeting in which you were not present. I think this is pretty specific information and to imply that I have sufficient knowledge and creativity to fabricate it will be up to the reader to decide at this time…FWIW I called three people immediately after this meeting. One of which is the OP of this thread and the other is an additional active forum member. I’m sure they can vouch for the consistency of my statements compared to then as they appeared in my post.

But to further demonstrate that I believe I have fully and fairly posted both sides for the reader, I’ll go ahead a quote myself again:

So now that I have mentioned a cash option and no sooner than I left the Livernois shop and merged onto the highyway I got an email from Mike. Now let me predicate this by stating I am not one to post the contents of a PM but this goes to the credibility of Dan Millen. In summation, Mike said he had spoke too soon and that after relaying our conversation to Dan, Dan told Mike that the ports on my cylinder heads and a few other select customers were created especially by Dan for us customers.

Do we screw up? No one is perfect. Absolutely, but we stand behind our product and do what we can to make things right. Very few customers have bad things to say about us. I am sure there are some, but they have been offered to make things right. I guarantee it. We do a large volume of work and can’t always make everyone 100% happy, but do our best.
Because you “don’t like” the fix we are providing you is no reason to post negative stuff about us. Honestly, what you want to do to the intake is not acceptable and a “hack” in my personal opinion and we wouldn’t do it as a company and I wouldn’t do it on my personal stuff. Agree to disagree. The two methods we would do is welding and making a new groove or yes using epoxy and re-cnc-ing the groove to the larger diameter is the right way to do it.

This is our professional opinion in doing this.

I can appreciate your professional opinion and realize my resolution is temporary at best but it is a solution which can be done by any owner, like me, with limited tools and means. As you just stated, you guys make mistakes. I have unfortunately seen this repeatedly in my dealings with Livernois and much of why I am opting to try my solution before letting Livernois do “experimental surgery” on my manifold. I have also elaborated on areas of concern in PMs with Mike Schropp and in this very thread. One of which is potential future problems if I ever decide to change this manifold for a different means of induction.

Livernois is a good company, so stop the bashing of our company an trying to say we didn’t offer to fix it and make things right. Livernois did and I personally did. Nowhere do you post that we offered to help you fix it. Instead, nothing is good enough and you would rather have something to complain about.. so, from the management of the company we have offered multiple times, bring your intake to our shop and we will do what I would do if it was my car. Fix the intake!
Thanks

This is what Dan Millen really said!!

P.S. Sorry for the long post

You guys obviously recognize the power of the internet and these forums. So do we as consumers….its our own “Consumer Protection Agency” if you will. If someone I truly consider a friend knew derogatory information regarding a part I desired to purchase and they failed to share it with me denying me the ability to make a fully informed educated decision than I would be very disappointed in my friend. Like the OP, my intent has not been to bash you guys. I have always said and continue to say, even now that we aren’t “friends”, I think it is great you have a successful business here in southeastern Michigan and wish you continued success. How you get there is up to you.

As you put it...agree to disagree,

Brian
 
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Dan Millen

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Dan,

In no way, shape or form am I putting words in your mouth. I have very limited contact with you guys so your words resonate with me. Based on my experience with your shop and problems communicating, I have gone to the extent of memorializing these contacts in the forms of email, notes, etc. You on the other hand, I would hope, have contact with hundreds of customers, vendors, manufacturers etc. on a weekly basis and doing so would probably hinder your ability to effectively manage your time.

With regards to this conversation, do you mean to tell me you didn’t start that conversation off already upset? Your tone and comments regarding my posts in this forum and FRPP seemed to indicate otherwise. Do you also mean to tell me you didn’t say you viewed “that girls” pictures and said the Kenne Bell manifold looked perfect as it was right on the edge?

Take another look at my post. I used words like “in summary” and “in not so many words”. I think it clearly indicates I am not quoting you unless otherwise indicated by quotation marks; however, I do believe I appropriately described the tone of the conversation.



I stand by my quote and her name is Belinda for future reference.




Since most of this is the same argument you posed to me during the original build I will reiterate my previous response for the sake of the readers…

As I told you then, I am very clear in my questions and selective of the language I use as to avoid any confuse or ambiguity. In my line of work, most questions start with “Before I ask any questions, you have the right to an attorney”. That being said, I know the importance of clear communication.

Accordingly, I have taken every effort to communicate clearly with you and your employees. As you should remember, we have directly discussed this issue on numerous occasions. I will admit that I am a “demanding” customer but only to the extent that I expect to get what I pay for and that the responses you or your employees provide me are correct and accurate. I will not apologize for being any different. I’m sure from your perspective it would be great if all customers simply accepted what Livernois tells them without question.

In regards to the custom engine statements, when I asked your former employee for a spec sheet on the engine, I was told this was an off the shelf build therefore I would not be receiving a spec sheet…so do I not expect this information to be correct now? I do wish to believe your comments regarding the port work on these cylinder heads but I also find the timing suspect. If this was the case it should have been addressed during the aforementioned phone call…and after looking at Belinda’s pictures again, did she also get the special CNC treatment (Don’t worry! That one is rhetorical)?

To me, this is very similar to the lesson learned after Livernois swapped my brand new castings back to the old casting cylinder heads without discussing the issue with me prior to. As you told me during the delays encountered during the initial build and related to the swap to the new castings (not a verbatim resuscitation), the new CNC program would outperform the old style castings and was worth the wait. You also told me Livernois was not the type of shop to charge or tell customers they would install or do certain work only to not do it and profit from these misleadings (again, this is not a quote but the impression you gave me based on your selection of words). However, at the end of the day, I now have the old castings which I might add are the subject of a current class action law suit against Ford.

We did discuss this issue back then and you led me to believe the swap was done since the old style castings seal better. I feel I was an understandable customer at the time and accepted your convenient and after the fact supporting argument; however, there is a reoccurring theme here…



I have tried to do nothing other than portray a factual unbiased recount of the events which I have experienced. If reading my account of your own and the actions of your employees makes you feel this way than I am sorry to hear it. (Might want to think about changing them…just a suggestion). I think my posts have been very fair and accurate which is illustrated in this one:



The port you have is exactly the same port as the fastest three valve car in the country. I’m sorry that you think Mike said we are no longer using the program you or the fastest 3V car in the country have. The fact is we don’t use this port everyday!!
I think that is great you guys can make that claim…now just do it repeatedly, every time and maybe the tone of these threads will swing in your favor.



I am at a bit of a loss for words here…again you mean to tell me you sat on this information during all our prior disagreements which resulted from the problems encountered during the initial build? After I called you out for swapping the castings from the new to the old? It isn’t until now that you divulge this information. I find that extremely difficult to believe.

To address my meeting with Mike Schropp, based on part conversation and PMs with him, I visited the shop expecting to speak with both Mike and yourself regarding the manifold/cylinder heads. When I arrived Mike apologized and said you were not available. The fact that you weren’t there really had no significance to me other than the fact it was a rather refreshing meeting in the sense that I got to deal face to face with someone that I felt honestly expressed a genuine concern for the issues I raised. After dealing directly with Mike Schropp, I have come to the opinion he is straight forward, honest and enjoys the challenge of finding an agreeable solution with the customer. (You need to hire more of him if I might make another suggestion).

In my post, I am simply relaying the information as it was provided to me during a meeting in which you were not present. I think this is pretty specific information and to imply that I have sufficient knowledge and creativity to fabricate it will be up to the reader to decide at this time…FWIW I called three people immediately after this meeting. One of which is the OP of this thread and the other is an additional active forum member. I’m sure they can vouch for the consistency of my statements compared to then as they appeared in my post.

But to further demonstrate that I believe I have fully and fairly posted both sides for the reader, I’ll go ahead a quote myself again:





I can appreciate your professional opinion and realize my resolution is temporary at best but it is a solution which can be done by any owner, like me, with limited tools and means. As you just stated, you guys make mistakes. I have unfortunately seen this repeatedly in my dealings with Livernois and much of why I am opting to try my solution before letting Livernois do “experimental surgery” on my manifold. I have also elaborated on areas of concern in PMs with Mike Schropp and in this very thread. One of which is potential future problems if I ever decide to change this manifold for a different means of induction.



You guys obviously recognize the power of the internet and these forums. So do we as consumers….its our own “Consumer Protection Agency” if you will. If someone I truly consider a friend knew derogatory information regarding a part I desired to purchase and they failed to share it with me denying me the ability to make a fully informed educated decision than I would be very disappointed in my friend. Like the OP, my intent has not been to bash you guys. I have always said and continue to say, even now that we aren’t “friends”, I think it is great you have a successful business here in southeastern Michigan and wish you continued success. How you get there is up to you.

As you put it...agree to disagree,

Brian

Brian,

There is obviously very two completely different views. We can agree to disagree. All Livernois can do is offer the best possible solution. Rather not go back an forth with the he said she said.

If you want it fixed we have offered

Thank You

Dan
 

908ssp

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So you're going to replace the old castings for the new he was promised and correct the leaking valve seal and over size ports?
 

stang06girl

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Maybe if pictures don't work, how about some numbers
I went out and measured the distance between the edge of the intake port and the oring groove on my stock ford manifold, which turned out to be 1.677mm (.066 in). I measured 7.82 mm for the hole diameter, and it is a 6mm bolt. The factory intakes have .83mm thick o-rings (which center the bolt in the hole, so lets assume an bolt o-ring could be compressed half the thickness of the o-ring, .83/2= .417mm (.016in) If one assumes the location is controlled by the oring squish, the location could be off by .016 in. If one assumes the o-ring is totally squished, there would be a maximum of 1.82 mm (or .072 in.) offset. Lets be optimistic, and assume it's controlled by the o-ring squish. I measured a stock head at a width of 61.45mm (2.419 in), and a stock intake at a width of 60.8mm (2.394 in), a difference of .65mm (.025 in). Subtract from that the o-ring squish, and there is .65-.417=.233mm (.009 in) of margin with a stock head / manifold of exposing the o-ring groove. So if one could control the cnc fixturing to within +/-.005in, there would only be .004in of available material to port in the head width before have a risk of exposing the o-ring groove. So a maximum port width woithout or-ring exposure would be 2.419+2*.004 = 2.427 in. or 61.65mm. The Livernois port width has been documented at 2.6605 in. 2.6605-2.427=.23 inches beyond o-ring exposure.

All the math above, is for just exposing the o-ring groove. How far do you have to go, considering the flexibility of the o-ring before it actually can get underneath the o-ring and cause a leak? I also measured the o-ring groove width at .12 in. So if one adds the two oring groove withs (one per side) to the stock port 2.427+2*.12 = 2.67in to completly expose the o-ring. the 2.66 in wide livernois port is only .010 inches less. I would say, by the numbers, that there is a high probablity of blowing out an o-ring.

In regards to the casting changes and variables in the intakes:
All of the intakes, whether it be Whipple, Roush, KB, Edelbrock, C&L all have the CNC'd o-ring grooves. As such, they are reasonably controlled, and highly repeatable, regardless of who's intake it is. These grooves aren't controlled by the casting, they are controlled by a CNC mill, and CNC program, and are likely all cut with the same program based off of one single set of datums for the intake. They will have very repeatable groove profiles, and very repeatable locations for both side to side and back and forth locations. Any intake where the casting is off so bad as to go into the o-ring groove would be scrapped right at the point of machining. The biggest tolerance would likely be in the clearance between the bolt holes and the bolts which attach the intake to the heads. To go a little way into the o-ring groove may be o.k., but to make the port so damn wide that i't's potentially only .010 inches from completely exposing the entire o-ring groove is beyond risky. If the math doesn't work, I guess I'll post more pictures.

I bought Ford Racing heads from a Ford Racing dealer, which turned out to be $1869.00 a piece repackaged Livernois stage 3 heads. So I'm three levels seperated from Livernois on these heads. (The Ford Racing dealer, then Ford Racing, and then Livernois). Due to this, and also wanting to know what the issue was that damn near caused me to destroy a $20,000.00 motor when I was one keeper away from sucking an intake into a cylinder, I decided to deal with these issues externally, believing that the time, effort, and money involved wouldn't be worth the effort in trying to handle this thru Ford Racing / Livernois.

It turned out to be a loose guide, and upon further investigation, it turned out that every guide except one was loose in the passenger side head. The place I took the heads to also said that they had never seen seals so tight before as well. So there was likely guide oil starvation issues involved along with the loose guide. The pictures of the damage of the valve train are shown below. The secondary issue of the porting only came about after looking at other threads and doing some detective work.
I don't care if these heads are on the fastest 3 valve in the world, or that hundreds have been sold without issues. There are at least 7 that have had issues with guides, seals, or/and CNC porting issues with these heads. Amoung those seven, the ones who have dealt with Livernois have had months (if not years) of going back and forth, and in some case have had multiple sets of heads and multiple engine rebuilds. Welding up the o-ring grooves on an intake that came with a $7200.00 supercharger kit is not an acceptable option for me, and I suspect it is not an acceptable option for the others as well.

Because I handled the issue outside, I don't expect any compensation from Ford Racing or Livernois. But I do expect that Livernois step up to the plate, make a statement about what they are going to do to resolve guide issues, the seal issues, and the CNC porting issues in the future. It would also be nice to see a direct response instead of being passed back and fourth in a third party fashion.

Belinda

See below for pics of my damaged valve train, port imprints showing definite o-ring exposure, and a re-post of an o-ring showing evidence of blow by.
 

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Back@itagain

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I originally saved the attached picture from Belinda's post to open with MS Paint and simply cirlce the valve stems to pose a question. When I did it opened at full magnification and I can see from Belinda's imprint, the port job looks exactly like mine. It tends to be deeper into one edge of the gasket than the other. So now my one question has turned into a couple questions...

First, to address my reason for the circles, do these valve stems have different wear patterns on them or am I missing something (see attached photo "port 1")?

Do you still have some of your old gaskets? Do they look like mine (the one you previously attached is only completely blown through on one edge. The other edge is only partially encroached upon. I think I posted a picture of one earlier in this thread)?

Is your Kenne Bell intake manifold cast or CNC'd? Seems odd that manifolds from two different manufacturers would leave very similar impressions on cylinder heads from the same manufacturer?

One last question for you Belinda. Working under the belief that what I am seeing is in fact correct, what did you do to get these "special" CNC'd cylinder heads from FRPP of all places?

Since I am here I also wanted to address what appears to be the ascertain that OEM parts do not suffer from core shift and all of this is therefore a problem with the manifold production (Which is still an invalid point since the gasket is exposed to the port on both ends. Over cut is over cut. Does not matter if it is shifted one way or the other)....

When I had Livernois build my motor along with the stage 3 cylinder heads (never did I ask for a "special" cnc program or was advised I was getting one but it might cause additional difficulties) the "new cores" came out which I did elect to swap from the old style spark plug design. Part of the delay, as I was told by several Livernois employees, was because their CNC program had cut to close to the water jacket in this "new casting" and this was attributed nothing other than core shift. To my knowledge, the only one making 3 valve castings was and still is the OEM.
 

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stang06girl

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First, to address my reason for the circles, do these valve stems have different wear patterns on them or am I missing something (see attached photo "port 1")?

I did not notice different wear patterns on the stems. What you may be seeing is oil residue, as I was having issues pulling huge amounts of oil into the supercharger. I believe is a result of pulling more vaccum on the inlet side of the throttle body than the engine did origanally with the stock heads / cams. I resolved that issue by plugging the vaccum port on the SC intake tube and installing a catch can / breather. I can tell you that the oil was a pain in the butt to get off the pistons, valves, intake ports, and combustion chambers. I think what you might be seeing is some of that residual on the valve stems.

Do you still have some of your old gaskets? Do they look like mine (the one you previously attached is only completely blown through on one edge. The other edge is only partially encroached upon. I think I posted a picture of one earlier in this thread)?

Unfortunetly, by making the imprints, the o-rings were covered in half dried blue automotive paint, and were pretty useless afterwards, so I trashed them. They also only had 1100 miles on them, so I doubt they would have had much discoloration. They were sacraficed in making the imprints.


Is your Kenne Bell intake manifold cast or CNC'd? Seems odd that manifolds from two different manufacturers would leave very similar impressions on cylinder heads from the same manufacturer?

The intake is cast, the o-ring grooves are CNC'd. The stock intake has an even thinner cross section than the KB intake. I would expect every intake from just about every 3v intake manufacturer to look about the same on the port size. Because Ford just didn't leave much wiggle room, they all have to be close.

One last question for you Belinda. Working under the belief that what I am seeing is in fact correct, what did you do to get these "special" CNC'd cylinder heads from FRPP of all places?

Ford Racing didn't have the "Hi-Flow" CNC ported heads untill sometime in 2010. I looked at the flow numbers, and they were pretty much a match to the MMR and Livernois Stage 3 heads. (Now I know why they were similar). Having read oodles of head nightmare posts, I thought to myself: Ford Racing wouldn't put their' name on it if it wasn't thoroughly proven? I'll never make that assumption again. I had no idea they were farming the heads out. I bought the heads in Mid March of 2011. (roughly a year ago.)


Since I am here I also wanted to address what appears to be the ascertain that OEM parts do not suffer from core shift and all of this is therefore a problem with the manifold production (Which is still an invalid point since the gasket is exposed to the port on both ends. Over cut is over cut. Does not matter if it is shifted one way or the other)....?

As I see it, the intake cores can be shifted, but the o-ring location is a CNC'd feature, would should make the groove repeatable relative to the mounting bolts. So if the core was off enough to protrude into the o-ring groove, it would likely be scrapped.

When I had Livernois build my motor along with the stage 3 cylinder heads (never did I ask for a "special" cnc program or was advised I was getting one but it might cause additional difficulties) the "new cores" came out which I did elect to swap from the old style spark plug design. Part of the delay, as I was told by several Livernois employees, was because their CNC program had cut to close to the water jacket in this "new casting" and this was attributed nothing other than core shift. To my knowledge, the only one making 3 valve castings was and still is the OEM.

I did hear that Ford was having casting issues with some of their heads at one point. Livernois may indeed have had the issues they were claiming with the water jacket. However, the issues we are having, have nothing to do with the casting. Our ports are just CNC'd too damn wide.

I have seen casting pictures of a 3v head that C&L was making, I don't know if they ever got it into production.
 
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Back@itagain

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So you're going to replace the old castings for the new he was promised and correct the leaking valve seal and over size ports?


Thank you 908ssp...this is exactly what I have been trying to get across.

This "best possible solution" as it has been put is not the best possible solution for me, the customer that has already paid. It is the cheapest and easiest way with the least amount of an admission of wrong doing for Livernois.
 

Back@itagain

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I did not notice different wear patterns on the stems. What you may be seeing is oil residue, as I was having issues pulling huge amounts of oil into the supercharger. I believe is a result of pulling more vaccum on the inlet side of the throttle body than the engine did origanally with the stock heads / cams. I resolved that issue by plugging the vaccum port on the SC intake tube and installing a catch can / breather. I can tell you that the oil was a pain in the butt to get off the pistons, valves, intake ports, and combustion chambers. I think what you might be seeing is some of that residual on the valve stems.

I see...well I didnt but thats why I thought I would ask


The intake is cast, the o-ring grooves are CNC'd. The stock intake has an even thinner cross section than the KB intake. I would expect every intake from just about every 3v intake manufacturer to look about the same on the port size. Because Ford just didn't leave much wiggle room, they all have to be close.

Sounds pretty much like the same manufacturing process that is evident on the Whipple intake than but this also brings up another point I wanted to make again...why even cut these heads to such an extreme if the largest restriction in any system is the smallest point? In this case it is the manifold's port. I understand being able to put more volume into the head but at what point is it no longer going to create any gains in a real world eninge vs. a flow bench?

Ford Racing didn't have the "Hi-Flow" CNC ported heads untill sometime in 2010. I looked at the flow numbers, and they were pretty much a match to the MMR and Livernois Stage 3 heads. (Now I know why they were similar). Having read oodles of head nightmare posts, I thought to myself: Ford Racing wouldn't put their' name on it if it wasn't thoroughly proven? I'll never make that assumption again. I had no idea they were farming the heads out. I bought the heads in Mid March of 2011. (roughly a year ago.)

The new castings came out around April of 2010 (IIRC. I have a ton of paperwork and dont feel like digging through it all) and is when I opted to have my old style castings replaced with these. My car went back to Livernois to have this first set of heads replaced in the end of 2010. I didnt get it back until the beging of 2011 after they had swapped my new castings our for the old style heads and this port design...weird how the time lines are around the same also.



As I see it, the intake cores can be shifted, but the o-ring location is a CNC'd feature, would should make the groove repeatable relative to the mounting bolts. So if the core was off enough to protrude into the o-ring groove, it would likely be scrapped.

Very true...

I did hear that Ford was having casting issues with some of their heads at one point. Livernois may indeed have had the issues they were claiming with the water jacket. However, the issues we are having, have nothing to do with the casting. Our ports are just CNC'd too damn wide.

Exactly!
 
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