Speed+Clinic
Member
Agreed, but atleast with some better ones you might go off with a slight detonation but other than that NO.
I wished we had e-85, its just to far away to make it feasable.
JDM 3V 302E Stroker ShortblockMotor cp piston problem
- Thread starter Metallicats
- Start date
Agreed, but atleast with some better ones you might go off with a slight detonation but other than that NO.
I wished we had e-85, its just to far away to make it feasable.
Speed+Clinic
Member
Why didn't you go again with cp's?
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
livernois 4032 pistons here...around 16 on pump gas. 651hp.
I was always told the 4032 is a better material, tighter tolerances and less noise.....BUT on the flip side they do tend to be touchy and prone to breaking easier becuase they are a harder material....they are not as forgiving as the softer 2618 pistons. like comparing glass to plastic, one shatters while the other one bends. JE 2618 pistons i used to have were noisy as hell....these have been quite.
I was always told the 4032 is a better material, tighter tolerances and less noise.....BUT on the flip side they do tend to be touchy and prone to breaking easier becuase they are a harder material....they are not as forgiving as the softer 2618 pistons. like comparing glass to plastic, one shatters while the other one bends. JE 2618 pistons i used to have were noisy as hell....these have been quite.
SherrodMustang
Senior Member
I know that feeling.
We drum it up at 110 gallons at a time now and bring it back. Have a nice setup with a electric pump and nozzel and works out just like being at the gas station... lol.... at the shop..
Just such a cheap race gas compared to $10 gallon for most and more!
But... very much limits your travel distance due to not being able to find E85 everywhere.
19COBRA93
Ford Racing
Because of the exact issue the OP is having. Availability. I searched for a set trust me. None could be had. I ended up with Manleys which I melted down too for similar/other reasons. I will be going with Manley's again though. Much better/thicker ring lands.
Speed+Clinic
Member
The 2618 aluminum is stronger than 4032 aluminum (about 16-17% greater tensile strength and about 12% greater fatique endurance), while having a greater coefficient of thermal expansion (about 14%). The 2618 aluminum is also about 3% heavier.
When a crack forms in the 4032 material, it will generally lead to catastrophic failure. With the 2618 material, there is less chance of this happening. A crack will usually stop when it gets to an area of low stress.
The 2618 pistons will require greater piston-to-cylinder wall clearance than 4032 pistons, and will be a little noisy and there will be a bit of piston slapping until they heat up. Also, with the 2618 aluminum, there will be more oil consumption and blow-by on cold starts. Finally, the lower expansion of the 4032 aluminum means it should have better wear characteristics.
If you are taking a build to the extreme, the 2618 is probably a better choice. For example, I would use the 2618 pistons in the monster 1200 hp builds. Also, the 2618 makes sense for a builder to use because they never know what kind of abuse the customer will throw at the pistons, especially someone playing around with their own tune. For street cars, the 2618 pistons are fine if you don't mind the downsides, but they likely will wear faster. The 4032 pistons also are fine for street use. They will take longer to wear, they will be quieter, there will be less blowby when the motor is cold, etc. Very few people will ever push their builds to the point of needing something stronger.
The 2816 aluminum is more malleable than the 4032, meaning the piston itself will lose it's shape faster.
The "4032" performance piston alloy has a silicon content of approximately 11%. This means that it expands less than a piston with no silicon, but since the silicon is fully alloyed on a molecular level (eutectic), the alloy is less brittle and more flexible than a stock hypereutectic "smog"[clarification needed] piston. These pistons can survive mild detonation with less damage than stock pistons.
The "2618" performance piston alloy has less than 2% silicon, and could be described as hypo (under) eutectic. This alloy is capable of experiencing the most detonation and abuse while suffering the least amount of damage. Pistons made of this alloy are also typically made thicker and heavier because of their most common applications in commercial diesel engines. Both because of the higher than normal temperatures that these pistons experience in their usual application, and the low-silicon content causing the extra heat-expansion, these pistons have their cylinders bored to a very loose cold-fit. This leads to a condition known as "piston slap" which is when the piston rocks in the cylinder and it causes an audible tapping noise that continues until the engine has warmed to operational temperatures. These engines should not be revved when cold, or excessive scuffing can occur.
Good Read:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=907570
Piston Alloys
With regard to cast piston, they generally use aluminum alloys doped with silicon. Aluminum silicon alloys used fall into three major categories: eutectic, hypoeutectic, and hypereutectic. Probably the easiest way to describe these categories is to use the analogy of sugar added to a glass of iced tea. When sugar is added and stirred into the iced tea it dissolves and becomes inseparable from the iced tea. If sugar is continuously added, the tea actually becomes saturated with sugar and no matter how much you stir, the excess sugar will not mix in and simply falls to the bottom of the glass in crystal form.
Silicon additions to aluminum are very similar to the sugar addition to the iced tea. Silicon can be added and dissolved into aluminum so it, too, becomes inseparable from the aluminum. If these additions continue, the aluminum will eventually become saturated with silicon. Silicon added above this saturation point will precipitate out in the form of hard, primary silicon particles similar to the excess sugar in the iced tea.
This point of saturation in aluminum is known as the eutectic and occurs when the silicon level reaches 12%. Aluminum with silicon levels below 12% are known as hypoeutectic (the silicon is dissolved into the aluminum matrix). Aluminum with silicon levels above 12% are known as hypereutectic (aluminum with 16% silicon has 12% dissolved silicon and 4% shows up as primary silicon crystals).
Pistons produced from these alloy categories each have their own characteristics. Hypoeutectic pistons usually have about 9% silicon. This alloy has been the industry standard for many years but is being phased out in favor of eutectic and hypereutectic versions. Most eutectic pistons range from 11% to 12% silicon.
Eutectic alloys exhibit good strength and are economical to produce. Hypereutectic pistons have silicon content above 12%. In addition to greater strength, scuff, and seizure resistance, the hypereutectic will improve groove wear and resist cracking in the crown area where operating temperatures are severe.
It is the primary silicon that gives the hypereutectic it’s thermal and wear characteristics. The primary silicon acts as small insulators keeping the heat in the combustion chamber and prevents heat transfer, thus allowing the rest of the piston to run cooler. Hypereutectic aluminum has 15% less thermal expansion than conventional piston alloys.
A. Graham Bell, in his book "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" (published in 2002 by Haynes), says hypereutectic pistons are a poor choice for turbocharged engines. Hypereutectic cast pistons have twice as much silicon in the aluminum alloy as regular cast pistons (15-20% instead of only 7-8%). According to Bell, the added silicon leaves them "quite brittle and, as such, prone to breaking when subjected to detonation."
Forged pistons, barring unique manufacturer’s specifications, generally use two aluminum alloys, which are 4032 and 2618. Typical recommended applications are as follows: 4032 is a durable and lighter material usually used in naturally aspirated engines. 2618 Alloy is designed for the rigors of blown, marine, and nitrous applications.
4032 pistons will have quieter cold start operations due to their tighter piston to wall clearances compared to 2618 pistons. This is due to the 15% greater thermal expansion seen in the 2618 alloy. 15% may seem like a lot, but do the math. Considering a piston to bore clearance of 2/1000's of an inch, 15% is only .0003". Once the pistons have reached their operating temperature, the noise (piston slap) differences should be nearly identical in volume between the two alloys. 4032 pistons will have reduced oil consumption and longer ring life compared to their 2618 cousins due to their better cold start tolerances. While to many these physical comparisons point towards 4032, you must understand that 2618 pistons, for their slight “defects”, are clearly superior in terms of tensile strength and fatigue endurance to 4032. This is why most piston manufacturers specify the 2618 alloy for use in Subaru (turbocharged) pistons.
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1110_piston_anatomy_tech_knowledge/viewall.html
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Good read.... I made it to the 3rd paragraph! Lol
Speed+Clinic
Member
lol keep reading!! If you have anything to add or change please feel free to put your input and/or questions
Flapjack
Lunatic engine swapper
For years now, I've read about Saleen this, and Roush that. I'm so fucking tired of these companies. Seems like people pay way too much for their mediocre designs, simply for name alone. Whether it's a Saleen engine or a "Roushcharger" POS blower that struggles to make 10psi, there are always better solutions for less money. Personally, I'd rather have an engine from any number of kickass shops out there, and a KB/Whipple (if I liked PD blowers) for FI.
The only thing I could understand people going with those companies for are appearance mods. While not my taste (borderline ricey, IMHO), it is personal preference and that will always be subjective. It just seems like a growing pain that people new to the Mustang community have to go through. Kinda like putting that K&N filter on your car (guilty) and expecting so much more than it gives....
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screaming_pc
Junior Member
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I have both those saleen pistons and the roushcharger. i must be a big asshole.
all kidding aside, not everyone has the time/effort to research this stuff so they go with what they have seen in the magazines/tv.
Flapjack
Lunatic engine swapper
Well, I'm sure it does right by you.... I just can't see spending that much money and not having the best out there. Sometimes feel like my car is a bunch of cobbled up solutions, but I have definitely gotten my money's worth. Guess I'm a bad example, really. I can't seem to keep my shit running for too terribly long, though. At least taking the car down this time was an elective process.
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Metallicats
Member
I take a chance............anybody would have broken a CP piston like mine and kept the other and would be willing to sell ??????????
19COBRA93
Ford Racing
I might have one. Which one do you need?
Metallicats
Member
how many you have ???? and how much $$$$
Metallicats
Member
If you have 3 pistons,I take all(i take no chance loll)you have the standard CP piston who came with the shortblock ???not .010 or .020 over ???? #6 are broke,but anyone are ok for me.Tanks a lot
Last edited:
19COBRA93
Ford Racing
The pistons I have are the high compression (10.4ish I think) Saleen/CP standard bore. I'll have to look to see how many extras I have. I trashed a few, so I bought a set of 7 from someone on here who trashed a few too, so I've got some bad ones mixed in there. I don't think I'll have 3 extra, but I may have one or two. I'll let you know tomorrow.
Would you be interested in the whole set? I think I'm going to go with a different compression ratio when I build my stroker again.
Would you be interested in the whole set? I think I'm going to go with a different compression ratio when I build my stroker again.
Metallicats
Member
No problem,if you have 1 or 2 i take that,i really need the piston,I hope that everything will work.Can not wait to have news of you
Metallicats
Member
You have a complete set,that you want to sell ??????? CP or another brand ???,i juste want to replace the bad piston to finish the season and this winter probably go with another brand
weather man
Persistence Is A Bitch
BruceH
BBB Big Bore Boss 322
Those are for a big bore block, stock stroke. Good deal for anyone wanting a forced induction big bore.
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