Coyote Catastrophic Failure

[Quickshift302]

Ok so here is a question born out of my ignorance. Modern engines have knock detectors, do tuners ignore these when they tune for more power, surely a competent tuner would not disable the timing retardation when knocking/detonation is detected?

I believe they can actually increase knock sensor sensitivity with these newer models.

 

[kon5t]

I believe they can actually increase knock sensor sensitivity with these newer models.

really? hmm that would just about get rid of any detonation related incidents.... I think talking to the tuner about this before engaging seems to be essential. Hindsight being 20/20 of course

 

[Quickshift302]

really? hmm that would just about get rid of any detonation related incidents.... I think talking to the tuner about this before engaging seems to be essential. Hindsight being 20/20 of course

Well it doesnt make things bullet proof. The OP's tune may have had knock sensor sensitivity increased. Like I said in a previous post. It can take a lot or very little to blow an engine. Missed gears, bad gas, excessive time on the rev limiter, etc. Not to mention that every once in a while you get a car from the factory that just isnt like the rest.

And of course just because your car makes one clean 7500rpm pass doesnt mean it will make another clean one. Hell you you can make 50 7500rpm passes and fail to make the 51st. Its the name of the game. There is an excellent reason why we void warranties with go fast parts.

 

[kon5t]

Well it doesnt make things bullet proof. The OP's tune may have had knock sensor sensitivity increased. Like I said in a previous post. It can take a lot or very little to blow an engine. Missed gears, bad gas, excessive time on the rev limiter, etc. Not to mention that every once in a while you get a car from the factory that just isnt like the rest.

And of course just because your car makes one clean 7500rpm pass doesnt mean it will make another clean one. Hell you you can make 50 7500rpm passes and fail to make the 51st. Its the name of the game. There is an excellent reason why we void warranties with go fast parts.

Hearing you loud and clear, i am just suggesting that any extra reassurance would make me feel better about any tunes.

 

[BAKnBLK2010]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Im just saying alot of these guys work together. Advice may come from Jeff to Lund or Lund to Jeff.

alot goes into building engines and alot goes into blowing them up. A humid hot day, bad gas, a missed shift, or just a little too much time on the rev limiter coming out of the hole.

I like the coffee table idea!

I can promise you one thing, Jon Lund would never have to bounce an idea off of this Jeff guy. For you to say something like that is just ridiculous.

 

[blackgt87]

really? hmm that would just about get rid of any detonation related incidents.... I think talking to the tuner about this before engaging seems to be essential. Hindsight being 20/20 of course

The thing to keep in mind is that for the knock sensor to pull timing, there has already been detonation. They don't prevent it they just stop it after it starts, which can be too late.

I can promise you one thing, Jon Lund would never have to bounce an idea off of this Jeff guy. For you to say something like that is just ridiculous.

I would agree with this.

 

[2c5s]

600 wheel is not a huge number for these motors with a proper tune and safety precautions. How much timing did he have in the car? What octane fuel? Which injector? Any fuel pump upgrades? Not defending the tune(r), just curious.

 

[blackgt87]

600 wheel is not a huge number for these motors with a proper tune and safety precautions. How much timing did he have in the car? What octane fuel? Which injector? Any fuel pump upgrades? Not defending the tune(r), just curious.

I agree, I didn't think I was pushing the limits.

As far as I know it was on about 19 degrees of timing. Since I bought it the car has always gotten Shell (top tier, which I know is for additives not octane but still) 93 octane, no exceptions. It has the 47 lb injectors that came in the kit. No BAP or fuel pump upgrades, KB does not recommend one at 10 psi. Also my AF ratios were good on the dyno (so he says, when the dyno computer went haywire who knows what he was seeing) and in the data log I was taking when it popped the AF ratios were also good. The fact that I didn't even have a BAP should tell you the power the car was making wasn't above what lots of people make for a long time on stock coyotes. It wasn't a BAP on 109 octane making giant power.

 

[2c5s]

I agree, I didn't think I was pushing the limits.

As far as I know it was on about 19 degrees of timing. Since I bought it the car has always gotten Shell (top tier, which I know is for additives not octane but still) 93 octane, no exceptions. It has the 47 lb injectors that came in the kit. No BAP or fuel pump upgrades, KB does not recommend one at 10 psi. Also my AF ratios were good on the dyno (so he says, when the dyno computer went haywire who knows what he was seeing) and in the data log I was taking when it popped the AF ratios were also good. The fact that I didn't even have a BAP should tell you the power the car was making wasn't above what lots of people make for a long time on stock coyotes. It wasn't a BAP on 109 octane making giant power.

600 wheel on 19', 47's and no BAP? That's why you lost your motor.

 

[blackgt87]

Just talked to Powerhouse, looks like my heads won't be ready until the weekend at best

In the mean time I have a few more pics to share...

These bad boys showed up a couple days ago, I am impressed with the quality/looks

Here is a shot next to the stock header, really makes all the "coytoes have awesome stock headers" comments sound funny to me...

Here is the boss shortblock, not too much bolted on it right now...

Here's what I'm enjoying while my car is down, even though same days I regret it I guess I'm a little lucky I bought this before the car broke or I never would have now...

These last two are just because I thought they were cool and I'm getting addicted to editing pictures on my iPhone lol

Oil pan and stuff should be here today so I can bolt some more shit on. I was really hoping to get the heads back today and kick ass this weekend, oh well...more time to work I guess.

 

[blackgt87]

600 wheel on 19', 47's and no BAP? That's why you lost your motor.

Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio, widebands don't lie (as far as I know) so why have more injector or pump?

 

[Seer]

coyote header is a lot nicer than the gt500 manifold lol

 

[blackgt87]

coyote header is a lot nicer than the gt500 manifold lol

Picso or GTFO

 

[2c5s]

Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio, widebands don't lie (as far as I know) so why have more injector or pump?

Is that a serious question?

You know what, you're right, 600 wheel on 19', 47's and no pump upgrade is totally doable.......... you proved it, for at least one dyno pull.

Take a look at my signature, with my 16,500 mile stock long block. My car traps 140 in the 1/4, which backs up my dyno numbers. Take a look at every tuner shop worth their salt and look at their power vs. fuel system mods and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

BTW, you never saw any A/F reading in person did you?????? Do you have a wide band on the car?????? Or were you looking at the scanner software that showed, um, maybe commanded A/F?????

 

[Seer]

Picso or GTFO

 

[blackgt87]

Is that a serious question?

You know what, you're right, 600 wheel on 19', 47's and no pump upgrade is totally doable.......... you proved it, for at least one dyno pull.

Take a look at my signature, with my 16,500 mile stock long block. My car traps 140 in the 1/4, which backs up my dyno numbers. Take a look at every tuner shop worth their salt and look at their power vs. fuel system mods and then come back and tell me I'm wrong.

BTW, you never saw any A/F reading in person did you?????? Do you have a wide band on the car?????? Or were you looking at the scanner software that showed, um, maybe commanded A/F?????

Of course it is a serious question. Kenne bell doesn't recommend an injector past 47lb, OR a BAP until after 10 psi. This is a bolted on kit, why wouldn't I trust Kenne Bell? Are you saying their kit is flawed from the start? That would be a surprise to more people than me I'd imagine. I also data logged the car myself multiple times, you can see commanded AF as well as lambda. I saw the printout from the dyno, but like I said shit went haywire with my car on it so I can't know if he had shit fucked up while the computer was screwy.

I think the point of this post was to show what happened to my car and that I no longer think this particular shop is "worth his salt".

I still want an answer to a simple question, if lambda from 2 onboard widebands is good in cool air and warm air and on the street and on the dyno, how can you say the pump or injector is too small? I'm not opposed to upgrading them, I'm just saying this is the first I've been told that Kenne Bell doesn't know how to put a supercharger kit together.

 

[blackgt87]

lolol thanks! Those look...umm..sick!

 

[Seer]

lolol thanks! Those look...umm..sick!

hence, the coyote header is a nicer piece lol.

 

[blackgt87]

hence, the coyote header is a nicer piece lol.

Agree! I still hope to pick up from these longtubes though.

 

[2c5s]

Of course it is a serious question. Kenne bell doesn't recommend an injector past 47lb, OR a BAP until after 10 psi. This is a bolted on kit, why wouldn't I trust Kenne Bell? Are you saying their kit is flawed from the start? That would be a surprise to more people than me I'd imagine. I also data logged the car myself multiple times, you can see commanded AF as well as lambda. I saw the printout from the dyno, but like I said shit went haywire with my car on it so I can't know if he had shit fucked up while the computer was screwy.

I think the point of this post was to show what happened to my car and that I no longer think this particular shop is "worth his salt".

I still want an answer to a simple question, if lambda from 2 onboard widebands is good in cool air and warm air and on the street and on the dyno, how can you say the pump or injector is too small? I'm not opposed to upgrading them, I'm just saying this is the first I've been told that Kenne Bell doesn't know how to put a supercharger kit together.

KB does not recammend a plug upgrade, but you did that? KB also has set component requirements for their kit based on THEIR tune. You screwed that up with a custom tune. I have no clue what your definition of "good" is.

We can do this all day. If you think you had enough fuel, then run your new boss short block as is. Then start saving your pennies to repeat this whole process again. Then I'll look for another thread bashing a tuner for your screw up. I will say this, your tuner should have been smart enough to tell you to upgrade your fuel system before he tuned it. You may want to educate yourself on fuel requirments for FI motors. You may also want to start taking some responsability for your half assed combination and stop blaming the tuner. Funny how it's always the tuners fault when someone brings in an incomplete combo and the motor pops.

We have all made big mistakes, the point is, learn from it and accept the real cause. Even with a spot on, maxed out tune, your motor would not have lived long without proper fueling.