US-1
Banned
<enter stage left> Ta-Da!!!!
Nice to see the intelligencia has spoken. Must you capitalize each word? Proper sentence structure is your friend. I'm sure your English teachers are very proud.
This one qualifies as Ignurt.
Anyone else read the 451hp NA 3 valve motor write up in Dec 2008 MM&FF?
- Thread starter RRRoamer
- Start date
This one qualifies as Ignurt.
Redwolf
Senior Member
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AGREED, UNFORTUNATELY OUR LIL 281 W/ JUST HEADS, CAMS, AND HEADERS WILL NOT MAKE 450 HORSEPOWER. THANKS FOR POSTING THIS READ THE ARTICLE IN MM&FF AND I WAS JUST WAITING FOR THE REASON AS TO HOW THE PULLED THAT NUMBER OUT THERE ASS BUT O WELL. TO ANSWER ONE POSTERS COMMENTS YES HEADS AND CAMS CAN YEILD A HORSE POWER RATING SIMILAR TO THAT... JUST NOT ON A 3V 281, IF IT WAS A CHEVY LS1 THATS A DIFFERENT STORY..
You obviously have no experience with the 3V motor or Livernois. Go back to your chevy site you fucking troll.
This is a good example of the "no child left behind act".
I do not condone "giant gang banging" amongst these forums! Now, I'm not gonna stop you from getting on the so called action, but I will not be a part of your sick fucking ways!
Vapour Trails
The Renaissance Man
I read the article but never did the math. Somebody screwed up.
Where are Don and Hawgman? 94Tbird? The smell of gang rape is in the air.Where's SD when you need him? What he is saying is check your grammar. Last time I checked letting yourself come off like an uneducated moron will not let you survive long around here. Use facts to back up your comments or statements then put them into a concise statement that actually makes sense. Got it?
Guys, do you mind taking this off topic bickering elsewhere? Thanks!
Mike, Rick,
The single biggest question I have is this: Why doesn't the HP listed for the given rpm and torque equal reality? HP is a CALCULATED value, so there is NO reason that the numbers in the article are different than what I calculated in Excel.
To clarify about the before condition, the article spent a whole paragraph explaining that the 313hp was from the engine on the dyno WITH the headers and WITHOUT any of the accessories other than the water pump, which was the same condition for the heads and heads + cam tests as well:
"They first dyno'd a bone-stock Three-Valve engine that serves as an R&D tool. In stock trim, with just a set of long-tube Kooks headers, the engine produced 313 hp at 5,500 rpm, while torque came in at 314 lb-ft at 4,300 rpm.
Did Ford underrate the engine, since we saw 313 hp? In all fairness, the 300 number is probably close. Remember, our dyno engine wore a set of long-tube headers, which probably hurt a little in stock trim. But, more importantly, we ran without the accessories like A/C, power steering, and alternator. Another deviation from stock was that this engine was run with an open throttle body thanks to the FAST XFI fuel injection system. No restrictive inlet tubes or MAF sensor to contend with, and the computer had a custom tune. The VCT was also locked out. So it was slightly better than the way Ford tests its engine."
Here is the absolute worse math error in the dyno sheets:
rpm: 6800
torque listed (heads + cams): 285 lb-ft
hp listed (heads + cams): 439 hp
Math: hp = 6800 rpm * 285 lb-ft / 5252 or = 369 hp
But they have 439 hp listed in the table, so that 439 - 369 = 70 hp ADDED to the listed hp! That is not some "correction factor". Hell, the hp is wrong for all but FOUR entries in the table! FOUR! And that is across the stock, the heads only, AND the heads + cams runs. Four of them are correct...
I'll be blunt: Someone is "cooking the books" here. I don't know who, it could be Livernois, it could be MM&FF. Heck, it could be some individual working at either of these organizations. Whoever it is, they obviously do NOT understand the relationship between HP, torque and rpm, or it wouldn't have been so simple to prove the data was fake.
Also, before anyone decides to jump on me and claim I have something against Livernois, I do not. I have never done business with them, good or bad. Plus, these stage 3 heads are on my list for the engine build up I want to do in the future. Hell, that's why I paid this article such close attention in the first place!
And just so you understand my background, I am a mechanical and electrical engineer by training and a process engineer by trade. I also took a LOT of internal combustion engine design electives while in college as well. So I DO know how to look at a chart full of numbers and make sense of it.
Mike, Rick,
The single biggest question I have is this: Why doesn't the HP listed for the given rpm and torque equal reality? HP is a CALCULATED value, so there is NO reason that the numbers in the article are different than what I calculated in Excel.
To clarify about the before condition, the article spent a whole paragraph explaining that the 313hp was from the engine on the dyno WITH the headers and WITHOUT any of the accessories other than the water pump, which was the same condition for the heads and heads + cam tests as well:
"They first dyno'd a bone-stock Three-Valve engine that serves as an R&D tool. In stock trim, with just a set of long-tube Kooks headers, the engine produced 313 hp at 5,500 rpm, while torque came in at 314 lb-ft at 4,300 rpm.
Did Ford underrate the engine, since we saw 313 hp? In all fairness, the 300 number is probably close. Remember, our dyno engine wore a set of long-tube headers, which probably hurt a little in stock trim. But, more importantly, we ran without the accessories like A/C, power steering, and alternator. Another deviation from stock was that this engine was run with an open throttle body thanks to the FAST XFI fuel injection system. No restrictive inlet tubes or MAF sensor to contend with, and the computer had a custom tune. The VCT was also locked out. So it was slightly better than the way Ford tests its engine."
Here is the absolute worse math error in the dyno sheets:
rpm: 6800
torque listed (heads + cams): 285 lb-ft
hp listed (heads + cams): 439 hp
Math: hp = 6800 rpm * 285 lb-ft / 5252 or = 369 hp
But they have 439 hp listed in the table, so that 439 - 369 = 70 hp ADDED to the listed hp! That is not some "correction factor". Hell, the hp is wrong for all but FOUR entries in the table! FOUR! And that is across the stock, the heads only, AND the heads + cams runs. Four of them are correct...
I'll be blunt: Someone is "cooking the books" here. I don't know who, it could be Livernois, it could be MM&FF. Heck, it could be some individual working at either of these organizations. Whoever it is, they obviously do NOT understand the relationship between HP, torque and rpm, or it wouldn't have been so simple to prove the data was fake.
Also, before anyone decides to jump on me and claim I have something against Livernois, I do not. I have never done business with them, good or bad. Plus, these stage 3 heads are on my list for the engine build up I want to do in the future. Hell, that's why I paid this article such close attention in the first place!
And just so you understand my background, I am a mechanical and electrical engineer by training and a process engineer by trade. I also took a LOT of internal combustion engine design electives while in college as well. So I DO know how to look at a chart full of numbers and make sense of it.
You obviously have no experience with the 3V motor or Livernois. Go back to your chevy site you fucking troll.
O SO YOU KNOW OF AN S197 MAKING APPROX. 450 HP W/ HEADS, CAMS, HEADER, NO A/C , ILL MAKE IT BETTER .. YOU FIND ONE WITH THAT LIST AND A TUNE, INTAKE, FULL EXHAUST, PLUGS, UDP'S , I WILL.. O WAIT YOU WONT .... TROLL.. WOW TRY JUST LITTLE HARDER NEXT TIME NOT MUCH THOUGH DO NOT WANT YOU TO HURT YOURSELF
US-1
Banned
Somebody call Homeland Security.......we have a thread hijacker.
SoundGuyDave
This Space For Rent
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Actually, you ARE allowed to post here and make comparisons, but there are a few unwritten rules that need to be followed:
1) BRING TECH, not just unsubstantiated opinion
2) Odd as it may sound, sentence structure, proper capitalization, and to some extent, spelling all count here. This is a forum for communication, and the exchange of ideas and information, and as a result, a premium is placed on clarity of expression.
3) Don't EVER bring a knife to a gunfight. So far in your three posts, you have broken the first two rules, and then got pissed for getting slapped down.
4) If you dish, be prepared to take it... In terms of the lower-deck British seamen's prayer when awaiting an enemy broadside: "Lord, let us be thankful for what we are about to receive..."
It looks to me like you're a Chevy fanboy, probably around 15 years old, you "got slapped, Yo!", and now you're pouting... Great start.
1) Capitol Letters Your Nit Picking About Capitol Letters ... Ye
2) Got Shot Down... Still Waiting For Someone To Find An Example Of An S197 Making That Power Of Those Mods
3) Knife To A Gun Fight.. This Is A Forum... Are You Kidding
I Own A 2005 S197 Because I Made A Comparison Im A Chevy Fan What It This .. Instead Of You Telling Me What Im Saying Doing Or Thinking Is Wrong .. Find A Mustang With Thoe Numbers
2) Got Shot Down... Still Waiting For Someone To Find An Example Of An S197 Making That Power Of Those Mods
3) Knife To A Gun Fight.. This Is A Forum... Are You Kidding
I Own A 2005 S197 Because I Made A Comparison Im A Chevy Fan What It This .. Instead Of You Telling Me What Im Saying Doing Or Thinking Is Wrong .. Find A Mustang With Thoe Numbers
Yes, it is. Please respect the OP.
Redwolf
Senior Member
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You obviously have no experience with the 3V motor or Livernois. Go back to your chevy site you fucking troll.
O SO YOU KNOW OF AN S197 MAKING APPROX. 450 HP W/ HEADS, CAMS, HEADER, NO A/C , ILL MAKE IT BETTER .. YOU FIND ONE WITH THAT LIST AND A TUNE, INTAKE, FULL EXHAUST, PLUGS, UDP'S , I WILL.. O WAIT YOU WONT .... TROLL.. WOW TRY JUST LITTLE HARDER NEXT TIME NOT MUCH THOUGH DO NOT WANT YOU TO HURT YOURSELF
No, I don't know of an S197 making those numbers personally. I leave that up to the professionals such as Livernois. I am here to learn from great companies that are on here without making false accusations like you.
You have no class kid. Now go back to high school and get an education and learn how to write/type.
ahhh e-thugin at its finest..
Maybe you guys can castrate him and hang him from the rafters for not drinking the Koolaid here.
Maybe call the Obama brown-shirt goon squad out to see why he isn't towing the party line?
What is wrong with doubting the numbers in the MM & FF article?
I think the OP is dead on correct and the numbers are more than a little fishy.
Somebody makes a comparison to an LSx and they are deemed "Chevy fan boy"?
Androdz was clearly an asshole begging for what he got, but why are you all attacking somebody for questioning MM & FF or Livernois on these numbers? Are you a bunch of Livernois fan boys then?
I doubt 15 year olds even know about horsepower calculations based on RPM & TQ.
I read the article in MM & FF the day before this post was put up and I thought it was BS myself. Lets see the dyno graphs from Livernois or disregard the information as completely suspect.
Maybe call the Obama brown-shirt goon squad out to see why he isn't towing the party line?
What is wrong with doubting the numbers in the MM & FF article?
I think the OP is dead on correct and the numbers are more than a little fishy.
Somebody makes a comparison to an LSx and they are deemed "Chevy fan boy"?
Androdz was clearly an asshole begging for what he got, but why are you all attacking somebody for questioning MM & FF or Livernois on these numbers? Are you a bunch of Livernois fan boys then?
I doubt 15 year olds even know about horsepower calculations based on RPM & TQ.
I read the article in MM & FF the day before this post was put up and I thought it was BS myself. Lets see the dyno graphs from Livernois or disregard the information as completely suspect.
Were not giving the numbers guy any shit. I'm having fun watching 05Murder melt into hell.
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