Cortex Torque Arm Racechrono Track Review

Whiskey11

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That is what I don't get? "As painful as it is to say (and I'm sure I'll get jumped on for saying it)" Why is it painful to say? And why should you get jumped on for saying it? Is advocating a torque arm some kind of heresy? And if it is, who is the vaunted authority who disdains it? on the one hand you want a TA but on the other, you throw a bone to the skeptics by identifying a theoretical problem "power on understeer as the TA tries to lift the front of the car on acceleration." Except, the problem you have identified does not exist. In fact, the opposite is the case. The front end no longer lifts on acceleration and the nose does not dive during braking. Power understeer? I don't know. I just took a 90 degree turn at 90 mph 25 times. Half of those, it looked like Steve McQueen was driving, only he wasn't. I was. And I am no Steve McQueen. McQueen would not tolerate understeer and there was none to be tolerated. All you naysayers do amuse me. The only thing I can say is you will have to see for yourselves because you won't get the to the truth by theorizing your way to it or trying to find or even invent objective reasons why peoples' subjective evaluations are delusional. Again, my invitation is always open. See: http://griggsracing.blogspot.com/p/tourquearm-tech.html Also proven on the track: http://griggsracing.blogspot.com/2011/09/test-drive-old-blue.html

The painful to say (I'm sure I'll get jumped for saying it) is aimed directly at the people who are adamantly anti TA.

The rest of it is TA physics. You can say what you feel all you want, but a torque arm works by placing the force of the pinion gear climbing the ring gear at the forward mounting point and the exact opposite is true. Equal and opposite reactions. If the TA is trying to lift the chassis, then it is also pushing the rear axle down. With enough torque and grip you will lift the front end of the car and reduce the total "weight" there that is allowed to transfer side to side. Reduce it far enough and you will understeer. The same can be said with the added force at the rear tires causing them to grip, potentially, better. More grip in the rear = understeering car.

I'm trying to have a conversation with you and you keep calling me a nay-sayer. Half the reason I'm in this thread is because, in the back of my mind, I want one on my car to help the car out in autocross where I'm restricted to offset bushings to control antisquat (offset bushings that would NOT work very well, if at all, in any of the suspension linkages) since I can't run an aftermarket UCA mount with a non-factory mounting location, nor can I run relocation brackets. I'm playing devil's advocate because I'm trying to quantify your qualitative analysis and understand exactly what it is you are saying.
 

sheizasosay

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The question, in my mind, is what is the difference you can expect in lap times in a TA vs 3 link given both are set to 100% AS. Or whatever AS # you want to test with. Other factors....? RC differences that change when both TA and UCA are set to the tested AS% (100% in my scenario).


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barbaro

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The painful to say (I'm sure I'll get jumped for saying it) is aimed directly at the people who are adamantly anti TA.

The rest of it is TA physics. You can say what you feel all you want, but a torque arm works by placing the force of the pinion gear climbing the ring gear at the forward mounting point and the exact opposite is true. Equal and opposite reactions. If the TA is trying to lift the chassis, then it is also pushing the rear axle down. With enough torque and grip you will lift the front end of the car and reduce the total "weight" there that is allowed to transfer side to side. Reduce it far enough and you will understeer. The same can be said with the added force at the rear tires causing them to grip, potentially, better. More grip in the rear = understeering car.

I'm trying to have a conversation with you and you keep calling me a nay-sayer. Half the reason I'm in this thread is because, in the back of my mind, I want one on my car to help the car out in autocross where I'm restricted to offset bushings to control antisquat (offset bushings that would NOT work very well, if at all, in any of the suspension linkages) since I can't run an aftermarket UCA mount with a non-factory mounting location, nor can I run relocation brackets. I'm playing devil's advocate because I'm trying to quantify your qualitative analysis and understand exactly what it is you are saying.

I don't mean to call you names. I don't think I did, but I apologize if I disrespected you in any way. That is not my intention. I think what I am trying to say is you just have to try one out. I have a rear grip package that works together to produce a certain effect. It is not the torque arm alone, but the torque arm is the heart of the package. The effect is you feel like you are driving a $100,000 sports car. I have given very descriptive examples as to the difference in my prior Thread on the subject. http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99544 My prior suspension package was Steeda sport springs with Koni Yellows, A Strano adjustable front front bar, Adjustable panhard rod, caster camber plates, Bumpsteer kit with Steeda balljoint. Lighter weight wheels lighter weight rotors. A torsen T2r differential. I thought the car handled pretty good with that setup. Now, I say that rear setup sucks (With the exception of the Torsen)and I would never go back to it. I have built several other cars including a 2006 Mustang GT and two vettes. I am familiar with the aftermarket more than most. UCA's for our cars suck. The three link design sucks compared to the TA Watts link set up. The only people who debate this fact, and it is a fact, are the ones who don't have it.

The question, in my mind, is what is the difference you can expect in lap times in a TA vs 3 link given both are set to 100% AS. Or whatever AS # you want to test with. Other factors....? RC differences that change when both TA and UCA are set to the tested AS% (100% in my scenario).


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http://griggsracing.blogspot.com/2011/09/test-drive-old-blue.html

You can adjust the roll center on the Cortex Watts link. As to the times, I don't know. But on a prior occasion I was following a guy, Colin, in a GT500, Equipped with a Griggs rear grip package similar to the Cortex system I have now. I was pretty fast compared to some of the others at the track. My car has more horsepower than his as measured on the same dyno. And it s also about three hundred pounds lighter. I almost wrecked out of turn 9 trying to keep up with him. I was driving the same line. John, the guy in our group that goes out and rents the track did wreck coming out of turn three trying to follow him. Now of course there are always a million variables but the circumstantial evidence all ultimately pointed in one direction.
 
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Roadracer350

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Im thinkin from looking at the pic on Griggs website I could modify either the diff cover and or the TA and make it work but I just dont want to spend 800.00 on the TA for an experiment know what i mean... If it works fine but if not Im out 800
 

Norm Peterson

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I think it would be helpful to mount the gopro outside so I can see how well I'm using the whole track, something that instructors are always criticizing me for.
I need to run that track sometime.

I'm by no means an instructor, but it sure looked like you were early-apexing 14 at the end of the back straight (which then forces you to early-apex 14a). Agree with the other poster about other cars doing odd things, one car early-on down by Oak Tree did a funny little twitch, cars well off the apex.


Norm

Norm, I'm aware it can move fore/aft when necessary. I'm not sure where I indicated it was fixed? I'm assuming it was in relation to the comment I made about the TA being too long?
More from this part of the quote ↓↓↓ , as it suggests that the TA is providing fore/aft location to the axle

since the TA itself would be keeping the diff at the same length regardless of the LCA length

Which wouldn't be the first time a device has been called a "torque arm" when it really isn't one kinematically. I went through this some years ago with Kirban's copy of Buick's GNX arm that is in fact pinned at the chassis end.. Eventually, Kirban stopped trying to call it a torque arm and I think called it a traction arm (even though it's little more than a single center-mounted ladder bar - but I digress).




Norm, I know you have a general idea on the rules for ST/SP in SCCA Auto-X, do you think a TA or aftermarket 3 link setup is going to be the better choice? As painful as it is to say (and I'm sure I'll get jumped on for saying it), it seems like the TA offers the ability for better forward bite at the start (Pro Solo launch?) as well as power down out of a corner as well as reducing bind induced from articulation. The one big problem that I see is that it would definitely increase power on understeer as the TA tries to lift the front of the car on acceleration. I'm sure it can be tuned around to some extent but it will always happen right?
My understanding is that the solid axle Trans-Am cars of about 10 years ago were 3-link designs, and I have to think they were onto something.
The general approach appears to have been to obtain minimal axle steer and either not worry about anti-squat or count on stiff rear springs (and a light rear bar). At autocross and particularly Pro-Solo you'd likely be giving away a bit at the start.

The TA typically IS associated with a greater amount of anti-squat than the S197's 3-link, though it can be harder to separate anti-squat from axle steer without significantly affecting rear RCH. A/S with a TA typically drops as the car squats, which is probably good sometimes but not always. If you match the TA's A/S, the SVIC will migrate quite a bit longitudinally where with the TA the SVIC is pretty stable, which may be what people are feeling (have to think on that a bit and re-read the TA impressions again).


There probably isn't sufficient allowance in ST* to put 3-link A/S where it is with a TA with a bolt-on mod. You can relocate the axle side pickup (at least according to the 2012 rules I have a .pdf copy of), but not the chassis side pickup (doesn't say you can, based on a very brief scan of stick axle allowances). So you'd have to go about an inch upward at the diff assuming that there is sufficient room to do so and you have the wherewithal to pull it off safely/securely.

For a 3-link I'd be considering ways to soften the UCA bushings in the roll and axle steer modes while stiffening them in pure tension/compression of the UCA itself. That short of a UCA exaggerates the forces induced by those rotations.


Substituting a TA begs the question of structural adequacy/durability given the SCCA's position on continuous lateral members in the "lower" categories.


Norm

In fact, the opposite is the case. The front end no longer lifts on acceleration
This is most likely a matter of perception. Pitch rotation is partly front and partly rear suspension motion, and from the driver's seat it is not readily attributable where it is coming from or in what proportion (neither is roll rotation, for that matter). I rather suspect that no longer noticing front end lift is really a function of having greater anti-squat at the rear, which reduces the pitch angle without changing the actual amount of front suspension travel into 'droop' one single bit. Mathematically, it cannot, since a given amount of forward acceleration transfers X amount of load off the front tires and adds it to the rear tires. With X less load up front, the nose must necessarily rise by X divided by twice the front wheel rate. There is nothing else going on up front.

Less nose dive under braking is the flip side, where the apparently reduced dive is due to the tail not rising as much. Anti-rise is directly tied to anti-squat. Here's a pretty good picture of severe "nose dive" - look at how much of the nose-down/tail-up pitch is actually coming from the back. Now imagine taking half of the tail rise away and see what happens to the pitch angle. Remember that changing the rear suspension anti-squat/anti-rise geometry does not affect the front suspension compression under braking at all. The front bumper won't go quite as low, but that is strictly due to it being some distance in front of the front suspension.

attachment.php



FWIW, the car is on its OE 2008 springs, and the picture is of essentially steady-state limit braking, so there is no effect coming from having upgraded the shocks and struts.


I'm not anti-anything (except maybe anti-OE triangulated 4-link). But any tech that comes up in discussions like this has to pass a sanity check for content and phrasing - after all I have spent a lifetime doing engineering for a living. Sales people hate people like me who need to work things out for themselves instead of taking claims at face value. No offense intended, that's just the way I am. And I have driven a TA-equipped E-Street Prepared car . . . consistently to within half a second of what the car's (experienced) owner could do until he managed a much better final run than I could put up. So my impressions aren't 100% theory with no hands-on experience.


Norm
 
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Whiskey11

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Which wouldn't be the first time a device has been called a "torque arm" when it really isn't one kinematically. I went through this some years ago with Kirban's copy of Buick's GNX arm that is in fact pinned at the chassis end.. Eventually, Kirban stopped trying to call it a torque arm and I think called it a traction arm (even though it's little more than a single center-mounted ladder bar - but I digress).

My understanding is that the solid axle Trans-Am cars of about 10 years ago were 3-link designs, and I have to think they were onto something.
The general approach appears to have been to obtain minimal axle steer and either not worry about anti-squat or count on stiff rear springs (and a light rear bar). At autocross and particularly Pro-Solo you'd likely be giving away a bit at the start.

The TA typically IS associated with a greater amount of anti-squat than the S197's 3-link, though it can be harder to separate anti-squat from axle steer without significantly affecting rear RCH. A/S with a TA typically drops as the car squats, which is probably good sometimes but not always. If you match the TA's A/S, the SVIC will migrate quite a bit longitudinally where with the TA the SVIC is pretty stable, which may be what people are feeling (have to think on that a bit and re-read the TA impressions again).

There probably isn't sufficient allowance in ST* to put 3-link A/S where it is with a TA with a bolt-on mod. You can relocate the axle side pickup (at least according to the 2012 rules I have a .pdf copy of), but not the chassis side pickup (doesn't say you can, based on a very brief scan of stick axle allowances). So you'd have to go about an inch upward at the diff assuming that there is sufficient room to do so and you have the wherewithal to pull it off safely/securely.

For a 3-link I'd be considering ways to soften the UCA bushings in the roll and axle steer modes while stiffening them in pure tension/compression of the UCA itself. That short of a UCA exaggerates the forces induced by those rotations.
Substituting a TA begs the question of structural adequacy/durability given the SCCA's position on continuous lateral members in the "lower" categories.

Ahh yes... I fubbed that up! :p Thanks for clarifying.

Norm, you are right on the rules, no UCA bracket with multiple mounting holes allowed, just one at the axle side. I don't think there is enough room to do that either from the UCA contacting the floor pan near the UCA mount or the floor pan above the axle. I'd have to look again but I think it is safe to assume it wouldn't be advisable either way.

The only way I can think of allowing the axle to articulate while stiffening up the longitudinal direction and not inducing bind/unintended-spring-rate is some form of spherical bearing with the obvious problem of "bushings may be any material, except metal, and may have no more metal content than the bushing it is replacing". The only solution there is some form of Delrin/hard plastic bushing and that sounds like the wrong place to be using anything resembling plastic. I'm not sure how well Delrin would hold up to those forces when used like a spherical bearing not to mention the pure expense of having them made to fit in the stock diff bushing housing! Yuck! The other option is to do it at the other end of the UCA which is going to be transmitting a lot more NVH and it does afford a little more room for the bearing but it still seems like a bad place for that material.


On the mounting of a torque arm... it does not specify any restrictions other than the restriction in 14.2.H.6 (or 15.2.H.6 for SP) which states:

14.H.6: SFCs may not be used to attach other components (including but not limited to torque arm front mounts or driveshaft loops) and may serve no other purpose.


The Solid axle rules in their entirety:

G. Solid axle suspension allowances:
1. Addition or replacement of suspension stabilizers (linkage connecting the axle housing or DeDion to the chassis, which controls lateral suspension location) is permitted.

2. Traction bars or torque arms may be added or replaced.

3. A Panhard rod may be added or replaced.

4. The upper arm(s) may be removed, replaced, or modified and the upper pickup points on the rear axle housing may be relocated.

5. The lower arms may not be altered, except as permitted under Section 14.8.B, or relocated. Methods of attachment and attachment points are unrestricted but may serve no other purpose (e.g., chassis stiffening). This does not authorize removal of a welded on part of a subframe to accommodate the installation.

Interesting that point 5 includes the section on Methods of Attachment clause. That statement was separated from 5 in the 2012 rules and was assumed to apply to ALL solid axle rules and not the section on LCA's.

Point 2 specifies no restrictions from what I can tell and the only other restriction is the SFC one. I would take that to mean that pretty much anything goes. The only point of contention is whether or not point 5's "Methods of Attachment" clause was meant to be detached and applied to the Solid Axle rules as a whole (see 2012 rules). The only point of contention that I can see then is arguing whether or not the cross member for the torque arm serves another purpose (chassis stiffening). I would think that there isn't ANY way to mount a torque arm other than mounting it to pre-existing cross members or the transmission like the F-Bodies do. I doubt it would ever be protested.

Physically mounting the torque arm, especially the Cortex bit, appears to not interfere with any of the rules I can see since it uses pre-existing bolt holes to bolt on the torque arm. No welding, no cutting, etc. The Griggs unit requires welding the mounts in IIRC, but even theirs doesn't technically fall afoul of the rules from what I can tell since the mount is only used to mount the torque arm and doesn't attach to any subframe connectors (it does attach to the frame rails stamped into the floor pan).

Now if we were talking about an SN95 or Fox car, it would be a little more complicated. To over simplify mounting on the S197, it's basically bolting or welding to the floor pan and mounting at places that have pre-existing reinforcement from the factory.

EDIT: Norm, I'm very much like you. I seek the reasoning behind changes long before I will believe a sales pitch. The quickest decision I made in my suspension was 1 month and that was on the Watts link and that was only on going to a Watts link, not WHICH Watts link. It took me close to 3 months to decide that the Fays2 was the one I wanted. It has taken me 2 years to decide what coilovers to buy, and so on. I think part of it is the financial limitations (I can't afford to buy and try and sell what I don't use) and the other is purely from a "squeeze every ounce of performance out" to gain any advantage I can. In STX, that is a guaranteed requirement since the car is perceived (and most likely is) non-competitive.
 
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barbaro

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This is most likely a matter of perception. Pitch rotation is partly front and partly rear suspension motion, and from the driver's seat it is not readily attributable where it is coming from or in what proportion (neither is roll rotation, for that matter). I rather suspect that no longer noticing front end lift is really a function of having greater anti-squat at the rear, which reduces the pitch angle without changing the actual amount of front suspension travel into 'droop' one single bit. Mathematically, it cannot, since a given amount of forward acceleration transfers X amount of load off the front tires and adds it to the rear tires. With X less load up front, the nose must necessarily rise by X divided by twice the front wheel rate. There is nothing else going on up front.

Less nose dive under braking is the flip side, where the apparently reduced dive is due to the tail not rising as much. Anti-rise is directly tied to anti-squat. Here's a pretty good picture of severe "nose dive" - look at how much of the nose-down/tail-up pitch is actually coming from the back. Now imagine taking half of the tail rise away and see what happens to the pitch angle. Remember that changing the rear suspension anti-squat/anti-rise geometry does not affect the front suspension compression under braking at all. The front bumper won't go quite as low, but that is strictly due to it being some distance in front of the front suspension.

attachment.php



FWIW, the car is on its OE 2008 springs, and the picture is of essentially steady-state limit braking, so there is no effect coming from having upgraded the shocks and struts.


I'm not anti-anything (except maybe anti-OE triangulated 4-link). But any tech that comes up in discussions like this has to pass a sanity check for content and phrasing - after all I have spent a lifetime doing engineering for a living. Sales people hate people like me who need to work things out for themselves instead of taking claims at face value. No offense intended, that's just the way I am. And I have driven a TA-equipped E-Street Prepared car . . . consistently to within half a second of what the car's (experienced) owner could do until he managed a much better final run than I could put up. So my impressions aren't 100% theory with no hands-on experience.


Norm
Fair enough. I take everything you said and I respond that a torque arm watts link package is the best thing a person can do to improve the handling and driveability of any mustang. Nothing else is even close. I will leave it to others to plot it out on a graph. In fact all other modification of the rear end to try to achieve grip are horrible for a street driven car. UCA and coilovers, especially UCA and coilovers are horrible. UCA's because they clunk. Coilovers because they are invariably too stiff, make the backend skittish over bumps, etc . . . At this point, I will also leave it to others to carry the ball on this issue because it is not my job to convince people of that which I know to be true. I have given my info. I have backed it up the best I could. You all can decide for yourselves. And if anyone in Southern Cal is interested in getting in on some track days, pm me and I'll see about hooking you up.
 
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Norm Peterson

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I'm not trying to argue or discount the TA here. Like I've said more than once, it's an easy configuration to drive. And driver confidence certainly matters. I still want to re-read the driving impressions, if I can keep from distracting myself here. Ideally, it'll make at least one thing 'click' that I can use to my own benefit, and at this point there's no telling what that might be.

However, I would pick up on the latest UCA and coilover distractions as being matters of detail rather than guaranteed unavoidable consequences of swapping in those things.

The UCA bolt to hole clearance problem is rather well-known and has "fixes" that are readily available, not to mention the generic issue with polyurethane bushings being longer than the inner sleeves (which completely "wastes" a lot of the bolt torque that you might think is tightening the joint).

If you look around only a little, you can find coilover springs that fall in the same range of stiffness as any of the common "big spring" lowering springs. That this may not be the way C/O kits are generally put together is more a function of the C/O producer making his assumptions as to the car's use being primarily track, with street use being incidental. Years ago I was looking into Ground Control C/O kits for another car, but wasn't at all satisfied with the rates suggested for the struts I was intending to run (I felt that they were too much spring for the damping and at least borderline too much rate for a semi-compliant street ride - and I can tolerate a pretty firm ride as long as it isn't flat-out wham-bang harsh).


Norm
 

Whiskey11

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Got another question about the Cortex unit. Since this unit attaches where the driveshaft support bearing is at (is that correct?) can you still use the stock 2 piece driveshaft with this unit?
 

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allegedly. can't say for certain, since I have a 1-piece, but pictures in the instructions show a 2-piece on their car.
 

Kobie

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I got the text below off the forum from the above post. Sounds like they might be modifying the current design.

Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:27 PM
Albino500, on 19 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:
As far as the KB issue it may have some flexing under braking issues due to the change in anti-dive design that they incorporated into the setup . ( guess I'll have to wait for their call -ha-ha )

I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with the man himself. He says that there is no problem, but they are going to build a brace to go between the 2 rear most bushing mounting locations on the K member and he will send me one as soon as they're available.

At this time they are only going to manufacture a brace to go between the rear bushing mounting bracket welded to the K member. I'm not happy with the solution and feel that they should go from square 1.5" x 1.5 " to rectangular 1.5" x 2" along with the brace, to combat the forces the control arms are exerting on the K member during braking. They are using 13 gauge wall thickness (0.95") square tubing. Ford is using thinner gauge flat rolled steel for the stamps to be welded together, but the K member is much bigger than the 1.5 X 1.5 dimension with a flange for more strength
 

sheizasosay

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I got the text below off the forum from the above post. Sounds like they might be modifying the current design.

Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:27 PM
Albino500, on 19 February 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:
As far as the KB issue it may have some flexing under braking issues due to the change in anti-dive design that they incorporated into the setup . ( guess I'll have to wait for their call -ha-ha )

I just spent 45 minutes on the phone with the man himself. He says that there is no problem, but they are going to build a brace to go between the 2 rear most bushing mounting locations on the K member and he will send me one as soon as they're available.

At this time they are only going to manufacture a brace to go between the rear bushing mounting bracket welded to the K member. I'm not happy with the solution and feel that they should go from square 1.5" x 1.5 " to rectangular 1.5" x 2" along with the brace, to combat the forces the control arms are exerting on the K member during braking. They are using 13 gauge wall thickness (0.95") square tubing. Ford is using thinner gauge flat rolled steel for the stamps to be welded together, but the K member is much bigger than the 1.5 X 1.5 dimension with a flange for more strength

What you quoted is referring to a kmember and has nothing to do with a torque arm.


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Kobie

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What you quoted is referring to a kmember and has nothing to do with a torque arm.


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My bad. I didn't read the whole thread and thought they were talking about the TA.
 

sheizasosay

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Barbaro- I just read back over your first post. The one thing that caught me is that you say your gonna give your review/impressions on a few things and list a few, but one thing you talked about that wasn't on your review list was the torsen rearend. Was the torsen installed with the other mods? Or have you driven with the torsen before your recent track day with all the other cortex mods ? I ask because the torsen can give you better corner exit traction which might interfere with your opinions of recent mods.


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