Coilover remote question

[Department Of Boost]

So now your going to flame one of the best racers in the nation because you WANT to be right...

I am right, want is not a factor.

I don't think Vorshlag-Fair would be so bold as to claim to be "one of the best racers in the nation". That is a very high bar. I am not trying to slam Vorshlag-Fair here, but there are literally hundreds of drivers out there that will give him a run for his money. And that does not including Pro drivers.

And how fast a driver is doesn't necessarily correlate to being knowledgeable about how suspension works. I've tuned for lots of people that have multiple championships (real ones, not juts local/regional crap), multiple track records and make real money racing that think there is magic inside of dampers. They are clueless. On the flip side there are guys out there that are top shelf suspension engineers/tuners that couldn’t turn a fast lap if their life depended on it.

Being a good suspension tuner/engineer does not automatically make you fast.

Being fast does not automatically make you a good suspension tuner/engineer.

Finding someone who is both is as rare as hens teeth.



Annnnnnd

Firstly, I didn’t flame him. I asked him to explain/back up a statement. How is that flaming?

And two, he didn't explain himself correctly. He's agrees with my statements about how spring pressure effects internal damper pressure. Conversely he does not agree with you.

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

Exactly. So relaxing the spring preload or removing the spring will INCREASE internal gas pressure (especially on dampers with internal top out springs), not decrease it. The spring keeps the damper fully extended, which is when the least amount of shaft is “in” the body and therefore the least amount of volume/gas pressure.

So any form of statement that suggests that relaxing the spring decreases gas pressure is incorrect.

My mind is full of so much Bullpucky as you described because of this thread now lol. I was hoping to actually get some knowledge on how a monotube shock/coilover worked but ill stick with simple things for now lol.

 

[Department Of Boost]

My mind is full of so much Bullpucky as you described because of this thread now lol. I was hoping to actually get some knowledge on how a monotube shock/coilover worked but ill stick with simple things for now lol.

The interweb is one of the worst sources for good suspension info out there. 90% of it is wrong, misleading or not complex enough to convey a good understanding.

There is a reason I shut my suspension operation down. And the interweb was part of that reason.

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

O well. Regardless, I will continue to read just because it is interesting. I like knowing this stuff whether ill ever need it or not. It just intrigues me to say the least.

 

[modernbeat]

Exactly. So relaxing the spring preload or removing the spring will INCREASE internal gas pressure (especially on dampers with internal top out springs), not decrease it. The spring keeps the damper fully extended, which is when the least amount of shaft is “in” the body and therefore the least amount of volume/gas pressure.

So any form of statement that suggests that relaxing the spring decreases gas pressure is incorrect.

Well, to use your own phrase, that is also bullpucky.

The internal gas pressure will force the shaft into it's most extended position any time the damper is off the car and is not constrained by a limiting strap, dyno clamp, or whatever. The only way to INCREASE internal pressure (except temperature) is to compress the damper. There is no way to compress the damper with a spring. You can extend it with a spring, but not compress it.

Springs and spring position have absolutely nothing to do with internal pressure of a damper. The position of the shaft does. When off the car and unconstrained a damper that is still gassed up will settle at it's most extended position. That is the same with no springs, loose springs, preloaded springs, etc...

 

[Department Of Boost]

Well, to use your own phrase, that is also bullpucky.

The internal gas pressure will force the shaft into it's most extended position any time the damper is off the car and is not constrained by a limiting strap, dyno clamp, or whatever. The only way to INCREASE internal pressure (except temperature) is to compress the damper. There is no way to compress the damper with a spring. You can extend it with a spring, but not compress it.

Springs and spring position have absolutely nothing to do with internal pressure of a damper. The position of the shaft does. When off the car and unconstrained a damper that is still gassed up will settle at it's most extended position. That is the same with no springs, loose springs, preloaded springs, etc...

Maybe we have a reading comprehension problem here (both of us). WE AGREE!!!!

Aside from one situation, and that is if the damper has an internal top out spring (which will compress the damper slightly with no main spring on it) I agree with you 100% that the external/main spring will have zero effect on internal gas pressure.

I don’t know if I didn’t get my point across correctly, but this is what I have been saying since my first post. The main spring does not effect internal gas/fluid pressure…….period. So we agree.

Roadracer350 claims that by removing the main spring, relaxing the preload on the main spring, etc there will be less internal gas pressure. Which is incorrect. That is the point I have been trying to get across this entire time.

 

[Roadracer350]

I may be wrong and I know I didn't explaine it the way you wanted but I still stand behind the way I was taught. First remove spring, second remove N2, third remove fluid, fourth disassemble shock. I made my statement because 3 of the top suspension tuners in the nation(bikes) all said and did the exact same thing. The ONLY time I would mess with my shock besides standard settings and adding a little N2 was at the track when Jim was not their. I have rebuilt it but only when he didn't have time so I don't have a whole lot of experience on the mustang coils but their all basicley the same just diffrent amount of fluid and more of a N2 charge.

 

[modernbeat]

Well, yes, we do remove all the external components of the shock before servicing it. It makes it easier to clean before disassembly and less clumsy to handle. The only time I wouldn't do it is when making an emergency damper repair during a race. We've done it on rally cars caked with mud during a very limited service time and I've done it on motocross bikes with very little time between races.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I am right, want is not a factor.

I don't think Vorshlag-Fair would be so bold as to claim to be "one of the best racers in the nation". That is a very high bar. I am not trying to slam Vorshlag-Fair here, but there are literally hundreds of drivers out there that will give him a run for his money. And that does not including Pro drivers.

And how fast a driver is doesn't necessarily correlate to being knowledgeable about how suspension works. I've tuned for lots of people that have multiple championships (real ones, not juts local/regional crap), multiple track records and make real money racing that think there is magic inside of dampers. They are clueless. On the flip side there are guys out there that are top shelf suspension engineers/tuners that couldn’t turn a fast lap if their life depended on it.

Being a good suspension tuner/engineer does not automatically make you fast.

Being fast does not automatically make you a good suspension tuner/engineer.

Finding someone who is both is as rare as hens teeth.



Annnnnnd

Firstly, I didn’t flame him. I asked him to explain/back up a statement. How is that flaming?

And two, he didn't explain himself correctly. He's agrees with my statements about how spring pressure effects internal damper pressure. Conversely he does not agree with you.

Look, you have to know that you ARE being very antagonistic in your posts, in this thread and others. Here you are beating anyone that doesn't 100% agree with you over the proverbial head. One trip up on one word and you are on it like a piranha on a pork chop. I screwed up in there, too - admittedly, and Jason (who also works here at Vorshlag, and is very well versed in shock design) corrected my mistake. And yes, I DO agree with you on 90% of what you write, and that most people don't know a damper from a dampENer. We get it, but you could ease up a bit (and I say this because I get told the same thing all the time, too, heh). It is easy to come across too harsh on a computer screen, and I suspect these conversations we all have on this forum would go COMPLETELY differently in person.

But in this latest reply you're doing the d!ck measuring thing, with the who's a better driver / engineer / whatever? Don't drag me into that nonsense. I know who I am and what my capabilities are, and I put it out there for everyone to see, nothing more and nothing less. I am no pro driver or set-up god, and would only describe my own driving and tuning abilities as a "seasoned hack", at best.

One last thing - if you want to keep up the constant stream of "I am right!" and "I get paid a lot of money to know things you can never understand" then SIGN YOUR NAME IN YOUR POSTS. And put in there where you work, not just pictures of your cars. Why? Because it matters if you want to be the BMOC. If you are a motorsports guru it will be pretty obvious to some folks, quickly, if you would include your name and place of business. Without a name we don't know who you are - you could be nobody, anybody, or Adrian Newey. If you are going to talk down to folks at least do them the courtesy of signing your posts.

Thanks,

 

[Roadracer350]

Well, yes, we do remove all the external components of the shock before servicing it. It makes it easier to clean before disassembly and less clumsy to handle. The only time I wouldn't do it is when making an emergency damper repair during a race. We've done it on rally cars caked with mud during a very limited service time and I've done it on motocross bikes with very little time between races.

Yea I had to swap a rear shock out because of pack down between races once. Fastest 20min shock change I ever did!! LOL!! Do you have any pics of the rally stuff!!

 

[modernbeat]

Yea I had to swap a rear shock out because of pack down between races once. Fastest 20min shock change I ever did!! LOL!! Do you have any pics of the rally stuff!!

I've got lots of pics of our rally adventures, but I'll refrain from diluting this thread with that. I'll put a couple links in my signature to some Photobucket galleries.

 

[Roadracer350]

You work with Terry so when I get down their I will have to swap bike stories for rally stories!!

 

[Department Of Boost]

Look, you have to know that you ARE being very antagonistic in your posts, in this thread and others.

Yes, I know.

Here you are beating anyone that doesn't 100% agree with you over the proverbial head.

Actually I'm beating Roadracer350 over the head. He has a long history of bad advice, half truths, tall tales, unsubstantiated claims, etc. He drives me crazy and I won't be letting up until a moderator tells me to stop.

Who else have I beat over the head?

One trip up on one word and you are on it like a piranha on a pork chop. I screwed up in there, too - admittedly, and Jason (who also works here at Vorshlag, and is very well versed in shock design) corrected my mistake. And yes, I DO agree with you on 90% of what you write, and that most people don't know a damper from a dampENer.

And that is why I respect you/Vorshlag. In fact I just sent one of the guys from Watson your way yesterday for a set of coilovers.

We get it, but you could ease up a bit (and I say this because I get told the same thing all the time, too, heh).

Agreed, I will lighten up a bit. Except for Roadracer350.

It is easy to come across too harsh on a computer screen, and I suspect these conversations we all have on this forum would go COMPLETELY differently in person.

Well, I'm a dick in person too. I'm just as likely to call bullshit when I'm standing right in front of someone.

But in this latest reply you're doing the d!ck measuring thing, with the who's a better driver / engineer / whatever? Don't drag me into that nonsense. I know who I am and what my capabilities are, and I put it out there for everyone to see, nothing more and nothing less. I am no pro driver or set-up god, and would only describe my own driving and tuning abilities as a "seasoned hack", at best.

Either I'm not coming across as intended, your reading into it too much or a little of both. I would give you much more credit than seasoned hack.

And I'm pretty sure that Roadracer350 dragged you into "it", not me. I only responded.

One last thing - if you want to keep up the constant stream of "I am right!" and "I get paid a lot of money to know things you can never understand" then SIGN YOUR NAME IN YOUR POSTS. And put in there where you work, not just pictures of your cars. Why? Because it matters if you want to be the BMOC. If you are a motorsports guru it will be pretty obvious to some folks, quickly, if you would include your name and place of business. Without a name we don't know who you are - you could be nobody, anybody, or Adrian Newey. If you are going to talk down to folks at least do them the courtesy of signing your posts.

Thanks,

I'm not in the suspension business and have no intentions of getting back into it, ever. What name would I associate with my posts? I'm just an ass hole who has been there, done that and got the T-shirt.......... with opinions. I'm not selling anything here. People can take my advice or leave it, just like every other poster.

Good talk

 

[modernbeat]

No, not unless you can check the nitrogen pressure afterward. And even then if you goof it up you will loose too much fluid and they will have to be serviced.

That said they should be serviced before you use them anyway. All used high end dampers should be gone through before use. They tend to get used hard.

This is BAD ADVICE!

Do NOT check the pressure of your dampers unless you are doing it with a nitrogen fill rig. Every time you check pressure you release some of the gas, and due to the very small volume of gas in a damper you change the pressure every time you "check" it.

Though the dampers should be checked on occasion. I recommend users to have their dampers checked once a year. A fill rig isn't much money if someone wants to do their own check-ups.

And if you loose fluid when checking the gas pressure, something is seriously wrong with your dampers. That means that fluid got past the divider and is in the gas chamber.

 

[Roadracer350]

Go ahead and beat all you want. Some people just want to be big men on the computer. You want to throw stones and get reactions. Don't really care and it just showes how small a person you really are. When I first got on this site I actually looked up to you for everything you did and I still have respect for you for what you have done in the mustang community but as a person your actually just a self centered ass. Also I will say again I may not have been right but that was the way I was taught AND I told him to call Regan. You just want to pick apart my posts to your liking because i proved that i can make those jacking plates cheaper than you could. Actually the only way i could was to make 100 sets at a time but i will let you be the big man on campus. Go for it. No one really cares anymore.

 

[Roadracer350]

This is BAD ADVICE!

Do NOT check the pressure of your dampers unless you are doing it with a nitrogen fill rig. Every time you check pressure you release some of the gas, and due to the very small volume of gas in a damper you change the pressure every time you "check" it.

Though the dampers should be checked on occasion. I recommend users to have their dampers checked once a year. A fill rig isn't much money if someone wants to do their own check-ups.

And if you loose fluid when checking the gas pressure, something is seriously wrong with your dampers. That means that fluid got past the divider and is in the gas chamber.

What does a full rig run? I always have mine drained and refilled at the shop.

 

[Department Of Boost]

This is BAD ADVICE!

Do NOT check the pressure of your dampers unless you are doing it with a nitrogen fill rig. Every time you check pressure you release some of the gas, and due to the very small volume of gas in a damper you change the pressure every time you "check" it.

I guess I could have been clearer when I said:

"not unless you can check the nitrogen pressure afterward"

By "can" I mean "correctly check nitrogen pressure". I didn't think some moron would be trying to check nitrogen with a tire pressure gauge. Who even has a gauge that reads 140psi/10 bar+ anyway?

If I tell someone to put their wheels on I don't include a tutorial on how to torque lug nuts.

And if you loose fluid when checking the gas pressure, something is seriously wrong with your dampers. That means that fluid got past the divider and is in the gas chamber.

I wasn't talking about loosing fluid through the gas port. I was talking about loosing fluid past the banjo bolt/washers when it gets re-clocked.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Oh, and Roadracer350. I can see your posting, but I can't read them because you are only one of two people on my ignore list. So you can save your blather.

 

[Roadracer350]

LOL!! Didn't know you can ignore people!! One of 2.. Wow im special! Good for you!!

 

[modernbeat]

What does a full rig run? I always have mine drained and refilled at the shop.

The "rig" runs about $100. You will also have to have a nitrogen bottle, regulator and line. But you might already have these parts for tire inflation.

An easy place to buy generic shock parts, including both lance and Schrader style fill tools, is Roehrig. Check out their tools page.

http://store.resuspension.com/home.php?cat=302

I've got my custom rig that I've used long before I worked for Vorshlag. It's modified to make it easier to check and fill the damper on the car and in difficult to reach areas.