sholzer
Member
I'm not a diehard mustang person by any means, I'm a performance car person so Option 3 would be the most enticing to me
NOT Another...Yes...another auotx build thread
- Thread starter csamsh
- Start date
2013MustangGT
Budget Boss
I would do 1 and 2. Get the 2015 and mod it lightly. Then mod the 2012 all out. I would look at power to weight ratio for NASA racing, you might not need the turbo unless you want to run TT1. JMO
yeah I'm a long way off from TT, and, once I get there, the rules will be completely different from what they are now anyway. Heck, I'm TT3 already as the car sits.
and...
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Choice 1 - is sticking to the "keep the '12 in more or less its current form" part of the plan even possible? How much "less in its current form" is possible before it becomes Choice 2?
You want a race car with just enough civility for sporadic street use? Give yourself a Choice 4, starting with something like a Miata and leaving nothing out of the realm of possibility (think everything in Choice 2 plus a V6 or TTV6 powertrain swap). Maybe XP or EM.
Norm
Yeah if I were to do that it would be an LS bmw. Also a good idea.
2013MustangGT
Budget Boss
Under NASA rules the Mustang GT and Boss in stock form are TT3. I think the V6 Mustang is TTD or TTE I can't remember. So, take a few years to do mods to the 2012 and go into TT3.
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2005-09 V6 – TTF** 3351LBs with driver
2010 – V6 – TTE 3351LBs with driver
2011-12 – V6 TTD** 3600LBs with driver
no we're TTB. But...if you do just basic mods and big tires, then, yes.
Mustang GT ('11-'12) TTB 3770
Mustang Boss 302 ('12) TTA* 3630
SoundGuyDave
This Space For Rent
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TT3 (as well as TT2 and TT1 for that matter) are "open" classes. No "points for mods" balancing and trade offs at all. It's a power-to-weight class, based around a 9lb per horsepower bogey. You take modifiers for aero (ANY and ALL costs the same modifier!), you take modifiers for tire compound and size, and you take modifiers for weight. There are a short list of "can not do" items, but other than that, it's a clean-sheet class. Yes, you CAN spend a lot of money in there....
TTB, on the other hand, is a "points for mods" class, where ANYTHING you do to the car costs "points." Once you have spent your points budget, you move up in class to TT3 by default.
This is a case where the car is at the pointy end of the field, and you need to build on paper first, with rule book firmly in hand. This is NOT a place where "run what you brung" and figuring out what class you land in will leave you competitive in any way, shape, or form...
TTB, on the other hand, is a "points for mods" class, where ANYTHING you do to the car costs "points." Once you have spent your points budget, you move up in class to TT3 by default.
This is a case where the car is at the pointy end of the field, and you need to build on paper first, with rule book firmly in hand. This is NOT a place where "run what you brung" and figuring out what class you land in will leave you competitive in any way, shape, or form...
Mike K
WANNA BE FAST
So what would my bolton 03Z be? I want to get into autox but its just so damn confusing for a newb to understand the rules.
it's so confusing...we're not even talking about autox right now!
Give us a complete list of your mods and we can class you pretty quickly for SCCA
Mike K
WANNA BE FAST
Cai, long tubes, small cam, one size wider front tires and aftermarket shocks.
Shocks are allowed in Super Street (SS), which is the base class for a C5 Z.
Intake and headers move you up to Super Street Prepared (SSP), and the cam further moves you to Super Street Modified (SSM).
So, if you went and did an SCCA autox, you'd be in SSM
Mike K
WANNA BE FAST
Well that sounds no place for a rookie. Lol. Thanks for the help.
to be fair...no corvette class is the place for a rookie. Your region will probably have a novice division that you can compete in. The C5Z is a fantastic car for autox, you'll have a good time even if you pax like crap.
Mike K
WANNA BE FAST
True. The only way to get experience is go out and do it. I want to open track it at RA and BIR this summer also. Im just wanting to do it for fun. There is a few clubs that run at BIR with instructor ride alongs. I figure its a good plave to start.
Vorshlag-Fair
Official Site Vendor
Just watched the autocross videos from your last few events, good stuff. Sorry we missed you guys at the ECR Toy Run, but the PRI Show was that weekend and it was worth it. That TMS road course event was hairy, and that spitting rain was hitting all of us all day. Your driving looks good, the car looked good, but I saw a few small things that can save you a second or two on a typical run. Let's co-drive at an event again next season, and ride with each other on every run, and I can show you what I mean. My comments are not meant to be disrespectful in any way, just have some ideas where you can gain time.
Those gears... yea, the MT82 equipped 5.0 Mustangs really need the taller 3.31s to have enough speed in 2nd gear (and avoid a lot of 2-3-2 shifts) for autocross. That limitation is costing you many tenths on almost all courses, and I noted this when I drove it before. An easy fix: raise the rev limiter! (kidding!) I know you tried to get on our shop schedule and we couldn't make the timing work on the one day you had free, but that gear swap should be high on the list for next season if you are going to keep autocrossing. If you stay in STU/ESP (probably smart) you can choose between 3.31, 3.55 or 3.73, and either the 3.73 (you'd do more runs in 3rd) or 3.31 (almost always 2nd gear) would be better than the 3.55 you have. You're just lucky like that.
As for the "1/2/3" car builds/buying choices... its hard to say what the "right" choice is? You know how I feel about C4/5/6/7 Corvettes, and the weird reasons I'm not allowed to own one anymore (have owned and/or raced them all, though). Amazing chassis, every one, and you would be faster on track and autocross with any of those models. I rode in McCall's BSP prepped C4 above at the TMS road course and it is a BEAST, but for a street car it is an awful mess. The C5 is better in many ways, but still a major rattle trap. The C6 is niiiiice, and a C6 Z06 is a real option that shouldn't be ignored (well, if you can get past the $40K prices for used models).
The suspension on even the earliest 1984 C4 model Corvette (1987 shown above is very similar) is so much better than a McStrut/solid axle car, and the later Corvettes are even better. The C7 doesn't make a lot of sense (heaviest, most expensive, too new) but a C5 Z06 is cheap and stupid fast. For classing reasons... hell I'd still get the Z06, A Stock/A Street/STU be damned.
But you also need to understand the many downsides to owning and driving these Corvettes, especially on the street. The driving position just flat out SUCKS - you are practically laying down flat in them compared to the S197 (this is one reason our BMW LS1 swaps are so popular - all the performance of a corvette but with a normal seating position and lots more interior room). Then there's no trunk (except C5 FRC/Z06), no back seat, and the remaining interior room is tight. Adding racing seats to a C4/5/6 with interior is a TOTAL NIGHTMARE (that C6 seat/harness install above takes 3x as long as on a Mustang!), and certain width seats simply will not fit without cutting/removing carpet and door panels. If you want to run a Corvette on race tires you are almost certainly going to need a truck and trailer to tow it with, as stuffing another set of tires/wheels inside is impossible.
The brakes are nice but pads and rotors on some models can be quite costly. The C6 Z06 brakes are particularly expensive to run with SIX brake pads per front wheel. A popular "upgrade" is to downsize these to StopTech 4-piston calipers that use a more normal 2 pads per caliper. And if you have the optional Ceramic brakes (Z06 or ZR1, shown above), get ready for major sticker shock when those need to be replaced. Everything about the C6 Z06 or ZR1 costs more to repair - Awesome performance comes with an awesome maintenance bill. So know that it ain't all roses and sunshine.
The nice thing about the S197 is there are a LOT more of them, so the aftermarket support is much bigger and the costs on parts are generally much lower. They have a great seating position, lots of interior room, a real trunk, and the '11-14 models (at least) all have very queit and squeak/rattle free interiors. Our 2011 GT doesn't make a single squeak even after being flung around on 12" wide race tires for years... these cars are SOLID. Yes, they are heavier, but go drive a used C5 Corvette and you will know exactly what I'm talking about. It will sound like a rickety old wooden bridge on the street.
You know the Mustang, you own a Mustang, and upgrades are endless. You could spend the next 10 years tinkering with that car and never run out of fun things to do to it and with it. And as we've shown, even with high curb weights (and we run ballast for our TT3 class) a Mustang with the right set-up can hold its own with Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and the rest.
There isn't a perfect autocross/track/street car - doing multiple things will always make for compromises. If you want to go FAST at an autocross you need a tiny light car, and power means almost nothing. When people get very competitive I always tell them that they should concentrate one car for one type of event: get a dedicated autocross car, and if you want to do track events, make a dedicated track car. The two sports have conflicting goals, and use different set-ups. You have to pick your most important sport and focus on that for a given car...
Remember how badly the BRZ crushed STX and STU that one time we ran it at Crandall? The car was fast because it was 1000 pounds lighter than a Mustang. All the driving prowess, parts, set-up wizardry and voodoo in the world cannot make up for 1000 pounds. You want an FTD autocross machine we can talk about a Lotus 7, and a "Lowcost" can be built very cheaply (Jason here at Vorshlag has experience racing/owning/building those). Or just get a really light Miata. Its sad, but weight always wins in autocross.
But you've got a helluva package in your Mustang right now. It is still a nice street car, great track car, and damned good autocross car - and with both street tire and R-compound wheel/tire set-ups you have a lot of options where to race it. Do some more HPDE events and see how you like it before you delve into any more radical mods there, and keep driving. More seat time will only make you faster. The new Mustang is going to take some time to get up to speed, as it has all new suspension at both ends, including the move to IRS. I think it will be heavier, and of course being brand new it will cost more. Lots of unknowns, and racing an S550 competitively is, realistically, at least 12-18 months away (I've had to come to this sad fact, and am building an interim car to bridge that gap).
Anyway, that's just my two cents... keep at it with what you've got.
Those gears... yea, the MT82 equipped 5.0 Mustangs really need the taller 3.31s to have enough speed in 2nd gear (and avoid a lot of 2-3-2 shifts) for autocross. That limitation is costing you many tenths on almost all courses, and I noted this when I drove it before. An easy fix: raise the rev limiter! (kidding!) I know you tried to get on our shop schedule and we couldn't make the timing work on the one day you had free, but that gear swap should be high on the list for next season if you are going to keep autocrossing. If you stay in STU/ESP (probably smart) you can choose between 3.31, 3.55 or 3.73, and either the 3.73 (you'd do more runs in 3rd) or 3.31 (almost always 2nd gear) would be better than the 3.55 you have. You're just lucky like that.
As for the "1/2/3" car builds/buying choices... its hard to say what the "right" choice is? You know how I feel about C4/5/6/7 Corvettes, and the weird reasons I'm not allowed to own one anymore (have owned and/or raced them all, though). Amazing chassis, every one, and you would be faster on track and autocross with any of those models. I rode in McCall's BSP prepped C4 above at the TMS road course and it is a BEAST, but for a street car it is an awful mess. The C5 is better in many ways, but still a major rattle trap. The C6 is niiiiice, and a C6 Z06 is a real option that shouldn't be ignored (well, if you can get past the $40K prices for used models).
The suspension on even the earliest 1984 C4 model Corvette (1987 shown above is very similar) is so much better than a McStrut/solid axle car, and the later Corvettes are even better. The C7 doesn't make a lot of sense (heaviest, most expensive, too new) but a C5 Z06 is cheap and stupid fast. For classing reasons... hell I'd still get the Z06, A Stock/A Street/STU be damned.
But you also need to understand the many downsides to owning and driving these Corvettes, especially on the street. The driving position just flat out SUCKS - you are practically laying down flat in them compared to the S197 (this is one reason our BMW LS1 swaps are so popular - all the performance of a corvette but with a normal seating position and lots more interior room). Then there's no trunk (except C5 FRC/Z06), no back seat, and the remaining interior room is tight. Adding racing seats to a C4/5/6 with interior is a TOTAL NIGHTMARE (that C6 seat/harness install above takes 3x as long as on a Mustang!), and certain width seats simply will not fit without cutting/removing carpet and door panels. If you want to run a Corvette on race tires you are almost certainly going to need a truck and trailer to tow it with, as stuffing another set of tires/wheels inside is impossible.
The brakes are nice but pads and rotors on some models can be quite costly. The C6 Z06 brakes are particularly expensive to run with SIX brake pads per front wheel. A popular "upgrade" is to downsize these to StopTech 4-piston calipers that use a more normal 2 pads per caliper. And if you have the optional Ceramic brakes (Z06 or ZR1, shown above), get ready for major sticker shock when those need to be replaced. Everything about the C6 Z06 or ZR1 costs more to repair - Awesome performance comes with an awesome maintenance bill. So know that it ain't all roses and sunshine.
The nice thing about the S197 is there are a LOT more of them, so the aftermarket support is much bigger and the costs on parts are generally much lower. They have a great seating position, lots of interior room, a real trunk, and the '11-14 models (at least) all have very queit and squeak/rattle free interiors. Our 2011 GT doesn't make a single squeak even after being flung around on 12" wide race tires for years... these cars are SOLID. Yes, they are heavier, but go drive a used C5 Corvette and you will know exactly what I'm talking about. It will sound like a rickety old wooden bridge on the street.
You know the Mustang, you own a Mustang, and upgrades are endless. You could spend the next 10 years tinkering with that car and never run out of fun things to do to it and with it. And as we've shown, even with high curb weights (and we run ballast for our TT3 class) a Mustang with the right set-up can hold its own with Corvettes, Vipers, 911s and the rest.
There isn't a perfect autocross/track/street car - doing multiple things will always make for compromises. If you want to go FAST at an autocross you need a tiny light car, and power means almost nothing. When people get very competitive I always tell them that they should concentrate one car for one type of event: get a dedicated autocross car, and if you want to do track events, make a dedicated track car. The two sports have conflicting goals, and use different set-ups. You have to pick your most important sport and focus on that for a given car...
Remember how badly the BRZ crushed STX and STU that one time we ran it at Crandall? The car was fast because it was 1000 pounds lighter than a Mustang. All the driving prowess, parts, set-up wizardry and voodoo in the world cannot make up for 1000 pounds. You want an FTD autocross machine we can talk about a Lotus 7, and a "Lowcost" can be built very cheaply (Jason here at Vorshlag has experience racing/owning/building those). Or just get a really light Miata. Its sad, but weight always wins in autocross.
But you've got a helluva package in your Mustang right now. It is still a nice street car, great track car, and damned good autocross car - and with both street tire and R-compound wheel/tire set-ups you have a lot of options where to race it. Do some more HPDE events and see how you like it before you delve into any more radical mods there, and keep driving. More seat time will only make you faster. The new Mustang is going to take some time to get up to speed, as it has all new suspension at both ends, including the move to IRS. I think it will be heavier, and of course being brand new it will cost more. Lots of unknowns, and racing an S550 competitively is, realistically, at least 12-18 months away (I've had to come to this sad fact, and am building an interim car to bridge that gap).
Anyway, that's just my two cents... keep at it with what you've got.
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Mike K
WANNA BE FAST
You know how I feel about C4/5/6/7 Corvettes, and the weird reasons I'm not allowed to own one anymore (have owned and/or raced them all, though)
I would like to know. You are right about rattles. My 18 mile 1 owner that never raced it has a couple but not bad. I think it has to do with the wood floor.
Terry when I get some disposable income again I'll be calling you for some expertise.
I would like to know. You are right about rattles. My 18 mile 1 owner that never raced it has a couple but not bad. I think it has to do with the wood floor.
Terry when I get some disposable income again I'll be calling you for some expertise.
So...plans...
1. Hooray for CAM. I'm going to run the shit out of this class, we have a lot of guys who autocross Mustangs, Camaros, and even Chargers here in Oklahoma and Texas, so it will be fun.
2. ...and I'm steadily getting more hooked on open track events too. I'm running the SCCA Club Trials @ MSR Cresson in January, and I've got some other track dates on the calendar too.
So, what does this mean? It means I have a set of 18x11 wheels in need of some tires. I want street tires for CAM purposes and so I can continue to explore the car's limits and such on track, and because I'm lazy and don't like to change tires at event sites.
Some of you probably saw this picture:
Well...that was enough. I ordered some 295/35/18 Rivals about 15 minutes later. I have been told the rivals are running big, and the 315/30/18's are very short, so that's why it was 295. I had them mounted and balanced yesterday, and have been out seeing what I can do about scrubbing off the mold release. I have a loop of about 10 miles that takes me up and down 20 on and off ramps, with some increasing radius, decreasing radius, constant radius, straights, decent braking zones, and a couple nice straights. It's not too common to get stuck behind slow people, so it's a nice loop to use to test changes to the car.
Fitment note- with AST 4150 struts and the 18x11 F14, there is an eency tiny rub. Just enough to take a square millimeter of paint off the AST logo on the strut. I'm running a 5/16" spacer, but will look far a smaller one. I think 2 or 3mm would do it.
Impressions-
My points of comparison are a 275 Michelin Pilot Super Sport, 285 Hankook R-S3, 315 Kumho V710, and a 275 BFG R1, tires I've used this year
Of all the tires listed above, they feel the most like a cross between the R1's and RS3's.
-Not as much feedback as the Pilot Super Sports or RS3's, more than both of the R-Comps.
-MUCH better braking grip than the RS3's- about on par with the R1's I think. Not quite V710 good.
-Forward bite is a wash with the RS3's, but less "squirmy" if that makes sense. Better than the R1's, not as good as a HOT V710, but better than a V710 in an autocross condition/temperature.
-They have more lateral grip than is possible to test while remaining safe and legal on streets with any amount of traffic.
All in all, I'm really looking forward to getting them on track and autocrossing them. Should be fun.
Pictures:
1. Hooray for CAM. I'm going to run the shit out of this class, we have a lot of guys who autocross Mustangs, Camaros, and even Chargers here in Oklahoma and Texas, so it will be fun.
2. ...and I'm steadily getting more hooked on open track events too. I'm running the SCCA Club Trials @ MSR Cresson in January, and I've got some other track dates on the calendar too.
So, what does this mean? It means I have a set of 18x11 wheels in need of some tires. I want street tires for CAM purposes and so I can continue to explore the car's limits and such on track, and because I'm lazy and don't like to change tires at event sites.
Some of you probably saw this picture:
Well...that was enough. I ordered some 295/35/18 Rivals about 15 minutes later. I have been told the rivals are running big, and the 315/30/18's are very short, so that's why it was 295. I had them mounted and balanced yesterday, and have been out seeing what I can do about scrubbing off the mold release. I have a loop of about 10 miles that takes me up and down 20 on and off ramps, with some increasing radius, decreasing radius, constant radius, straights, decent braking zones, and a couple nice straights. It's not too common to get stuck behind slow people, so it's a nice loop to use to test changes to the car.
Fitment note- with AST 4150 struts and the 18x11 F14, there is an eency tiny rub. Just enough to take a square millimeter of paint off the AST logo on the strut. I'm running a 5/16" spacer, but will look far a smaller one. I think 2 or 3mm would do it.
Impressions-
My points of comparison are a 275 Michelin Pilot Super Sport, 285 Hankook R-S3, 315 Kumho V710, and a 275 BFG R1, tires I've used this year
Of all the tires listed above, they feel the most like a cross between the R1's and RS3's.
-Not as much feedback as the Pilot Super Sports or RS3's, more than both of the R-Comps.
-MUCH better braking grip than the RS3's- about on par with the R1's I think. Not quite V710 good.
-Forward bite is a wash with the RS3's, but less "squirmy" if that makes sense. Better than the R1's, not as good as a HOT V710, but better than a V710 in an autocross condition/temperature.
-They have more lateral grip than is possible to test while remaining safe and legal on streets with any amount of traffic.
All in all, I'm really looking forward to getting them on track and autocrossing them. Should be fun.
Pictures:
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