Should BMR make an axle tube brace for the S197?

[YoungPony]

Just do a search Whiskey and you'll find people twisting the axle tubes. On the S197 the watts link wont let you run bigger tires unless you plan to modify the frame and wheel well as you'll hit that before any suspension parts. I don't care to argue though, i've read your comments on differentials and there is no discussion. If i was building a car for cornering I would go with a watts, but I wouldn't start with a S197 anyways.

 

[Whiskey11]

Whiskey I guess all of the twisted axle tubes would be a reason for needing an axle brace. Just my guess though.

How does the CHE brace stops you from twisting an axle tube? The only thing preventing you from twisting an axle tube from the CHE are the welds holding the singular tube that is not in line with the direction of the force. In other words it is weak bracing if it provides any at all for twisting axle tubes.

Now if BMR comes up with something totally different then I'll say I'm wrong but if twisting axle tubes is your primary concern, then the current CHE brace wont do it and there are cheaper, more effective and lighter ways to prevent it, like pinning and welding your axle tubes to the differential casting which is the way I would do it. That doesn't show up as a shiny part under your car that you spent cubic dollars on though so I can understand how that wouldn't appeal to some (Darren? ).

We've all seen the twisted axle tubes, but what I have yet to see is a failure of the rear axle that would justify the need for a brace.

@ YoungPony, they most certainly will. How far does the axle kick over to the driver's side when you lower these cars? Quarter to a half inch? Do you honestly believe that a quarter to a half inch isn't going to matter in tire width and wheel width? Vorshlag ran into issues on their car with their wide tires rubbing on the inside of the driver side wheel well that a Watts link fixed, imagine that, over a roto joint PHB. Sam Strano has said the same thing on multiple different cars he has owned and those guys are corner carving, something that requires more inboard tire room than a drag car does because of the axle needing to actually articulate rather than just move up and down.

 

[weather man]

In other words, it is weak bracing, if it provides any at all for twisting axle tubes.

You're wrong.

 

[YoungPony]

My bad whiskey when I first read that section of your comment I mistook that you meant the arc was causing the problems. As far as suspension parts though an anti roll bar would be much better for drag racing than a watts link.

 

[Whiskey11]

You're wrong.

Ohh, really? I see you have tons of evidence to support your claim. Allow me to bow to your superior opinion. Am I back on Mustang Forums where two word posts making a factual statement are accepted?

Explain to me how something that has, maybe a 20º angle in plan view (top down) is going to significantly increase the strength against a force that is rotational in a totally different plane than the brace? It's going to take a lot more than a single bar to significantly prevent twisting axle tubes.

That still doesn't address my point that welding and pinning is stronger, lighter and probably cheaper than an axle brace.

 

[weather man]

Ohh, really? I see you have tons of evidence to support your claim. Allow me to bow to your superior opinion. Am I back on Mustang Forums where two word posts making a factual statement are accepted?

Explain to me how something that has, maybe a 20º angle in plan view (top down) is going to significantly increase the strength against a force that is rotational in a totally different plane than the brace? It's going to take a lot more than a single bar to significantly prevent twisting axle tubes.

That still doesn't address my point that welding and pinning is stronger, lighter and probably cheaper than an axle brace.

CHE is a reputable company and didn't just pull the design out of their ass. Kelly at BMR thinks it works well enough to recommend it. CHE has sold a LOT of them and I couldn't find a single failure post. I'm sure there must be some failures, drag racers push a lot. If they weren't working, do you think guys wouldn't post that on the internet? There are good welders and bad welders, bolting on a brace eliminates that.

So yes, I do have a lot of evidence that the CHE brace works just fine.

 

[Whiskey11]

CHE is a reputable company and didn't just pull the design out of their ass. Kelly at BMR thinks it works well enough to recommend it. CHE has sold a LOT of them and I couldn't find a single failure post. I'm sure there must be some failures, drag racers push a lot. If they weren't working, do you think guys wouldn't post that on the internet? There are good welders and bad welders, bolting on a brace eliminates that.

So yes, I do have a lot of evidence that the CHE brace works just fine.

BMR is a reputable company too, and I'm not saying this to badmouth them but they also produce sub frame connectors for our car (as do other companies like UMI), something almost universally regarded as a waste of money on the S197 chassis. Just because they are reputable doesn't mean they wont produce something that serves little to no purpose either intentionally or unintentionally.

There are a lot of people who haven't had their stock 8.8's let go either but that doesn't exactly support the idea that there is nothing wrong with that setup. My point is the CHE brace doesn't actually do much to prevent the axle tubes to rotate. Some, yes, but a lot, no. Not even close.

 

[weather man]

My point is the CHE brace doesn't actually do much to prevent the axle tubes to rotate. Some, yes, but a lot, no. Not even close.

Since I still can't find a single failure, I maintain you are wrong. Guys install and they don't spin the tube. Keep in mind that the majority of guys wouldn't install for laughs, they install because they have had a failure, or are serious about their 60ft.

 

[wbt]

How does the CHE brace stops you from twisting an axle tube? The only thing preventing you from twisting an axle tube from the CHE are the welds holding the singular tube that is not in line with the direction of the force. In other words it is weak bracing if it provides any at all for twisting axle tubes.

Now if BMR comes up with something totally different then I'll say I'm wrong but if twisting axle tubes is your primary concern, then the current CHE brace wont do it and there are cheaper, more effective and lighter ways to prevent it, like pinning and welding your axle tubes to the differential casting which is the way I would do it. That doesn't show up as a shiny part under your car that you spent cubic dollars on though so I can understand how that wouldn't appeal to some (Darren? ).

We've all seen the twisted axle tubes, but what I have yet to see is a failure of the rear axle that would justify the need for a brace.

@ YoungPony, they most certainly will. How far does the axle kick over to the driver's side when you lower these cars? Quarter to a half inch? Do you honestly believe that a quarter to a half inch isn't going to matter in tire width and wheel width? Vorshlag ran into issues on their car with their wide tires rubbing on the inside of the driver side wheel well that a Watts link fixed, imagine that, over a roto joint PHB. Sam Strano has said the same thing on multiple different cars he has owned and those guys are corner carving, something that requires more inboard tire room than a drag car does because of the axle needing to actually articulate rather than just move up and down.

Have you bothered looking at where the brace mounts?
http://www.cheperformance.com/instructions/CHE9L/CHE9LPrint.pdf

I can provide you some real world experience. On my 2011 5.0 I broke a driver side axle when I added more tire to the car on a 6k+ clutch dump at the track. The only thing I had to replace were the axle and differential bearing. The rest of the axle survived and I attribute that to the axle tube brace and the LPW diff cover with bearing cap support. No doubt in my mind the shock/stress that caused the break could have twisted the tubes.

 

[Whiskey11]

Have you bothered looking at where the brace mounts?
http://www.cheperformance.com/instructions/CHE9L/CHE9LPrint.pdf

I can provide you some real world experience. On my 2011 5.0 I broke a driver side axle when I added more tire to the car on a 6k+ clutch dump at the track. The only thing I had to replace were the axle and differential bearing. The rest of the axle survived and I attribute that to the axle tube brace and the LPW diff cover with bearing cap support. No doubt in my mind the shock/stress that caused the break could have twisted the tubes.

Are you serious? Yes I've seen the brace, do you HONESTLY think I'd be talking about it if I had never seen it?

That's an assumption on your part that the brace "worked" instead of spinning the axle tubes.

 

[wbt]

Are you serious? Yes I've seen the brace, do you HONESTLY think I'd be talking about it if I had never seen it?

That's an assumption on your part that the brace "worked" instead of spinning the axle tubes.

It's an assumption on your part it didn't do anything. I have an idea....post your experience using it.

The answer to your questions are in the install manual hence why I asked if you had read it. You are just too thick headed or choose to be blinded by arrogance to get it.

 

[BMR Tech]

I've recommended the CHE Brace to people more times than I can count.

I would never promise someone that a brace will prevent twist - but, I can say I haven't had any of my customers twist a tube after welding, or using the CHE brace. I probably have more "Drag" customers than anyone.

Ours will be engineered well. It will likely be similar to the design I have had in mind for a LONG time. It shouldn't require welding, but, it will likely require drilling slightly.

The trick is making it work with all the other parts we have. Sways, ARBs, Relos, the new watts, etc.

 

[fdjizm]

You can do it Kelly, I believe in you.

 

[fdjizm]

It's been 6 days, any update?

 

[BMR Tech]

I won't have any good info for a few weeks, or more.

The initial development is boring.

I am going to be working on a new video though! I'm going to be famous!

I get about 15 calls each day about pinion angle. I am going to make a super easy video showing how simple it is.

 

[GTAmuscle]

Isn't there already a video of you doing pinion angle? Also, what kind of wrench were you using in that video?

 

[Pentalab]

BMR is a reputable company too, and I'm not saying this to badmouth them but they also produce sub frame connectors for our car (as do other companies like UMI), something almost universally regarded as a waste of money on the S197 chassis. Just because they are reputable doesn't mean they wont produce something that serves little to no purpose either intentionally or unintentionally.

Say what ? I installed steeda triangular chromolly tubing type sub frame connector's on my 2010 GT.... bolted and then welded into place. This was done in conjunction with the BMR rear tunnel brace (plus the mating BMR DS safety loop). The BMR rear tunnel brace is 1/4" thick steel plate, 33" wide. When used in conjunction with the pair of steeda triangular sub frame connector's....it forms one homegenous, continuous brace the entire width of the car. The car is then braced from front of each of the LCA mounts.... with other ends of the steeda connector aprx 1.5' forward. The car is then braced front to back...and also side to side.

I also installed the steeda rear STB, welded into place, across the rear shock mounts.....in the trunk, 1/4" above the carpet. I can still flip the trunk floor up to gain full access to the spare tire.

While on a roll, the oem Ford... "A arm brace" (which actually ties the rear of the oem K frame together) was retained, and a BMR real A arm brace (which does tie the A arms together) was installed..... (a few inchs in front of the ford brace). A pair of aprx 14"long steeda tubing braces was installed to re-enforce the front roush sway bar mounts.

The steeda subframe connectors are only 4 lbs each..and easy to install..vs the full size BMR sub frame connectors..that have to be welded into place. BMR lca's, adjustable uca, and lca relocate brackets also installed (middle holes used). Roush street/race suspension installed, and car lowered 1" front and rear. BMR adjustable pan hard bar + mating BMR brace was removed...and replaced with the WL watts link (+ eaton-tru trac differential).

Steeda front stb installed over the roush blower, and also steeda front strut mounts..... (the oem 05-14 car has no camber adjustment).
When the JBA titanium ceramic LT's installed ( + catted JBA catted H section).... I also installed steeda eng mounts...and lowered the eng + auto tranny by 1/4".

Don't tell me that sub frame connectors don't work. The full size BMR sub frame connector's are used by a lot of road race folks. You know when a car is stiff when you jack up the pass side front tire.....and the pass side rear tire also lifts off the ground. Ok, then its stiff.

Did all this stiffening, bracing and welding I had done work ? IMO, it's well worth the effort. The hard core drag racers will use BMR's other version of sub frame connector's.... which use 1.75" tubing from front end of LCA mount..heading forward on the car. For max effect, you bolt and weld em.......ditto with steeda triangular sub frame connectors.

Weld a pair of full size BMR sub frame connector's into place.... then tell us they don't work.

Jimbo

 

[Shotokan1509]

Don't tell me that sub frame connectors don't work. The full size BMR sub frame connector's are used by a lot of road race folks. You know when a car is stiff when you jack up the pass side front tire.....and the pass side rear tire also lifts off the ground. Ok, then its stiff.

Stiff-ER yes, but for most street cars the S197 is ok as-is, the pre-05's would flex like crazy when lifted as you mentioned, especially verts some to the point they'd crack windshields. My 06 without subframes (but k-member brace) will lift both side wheels, actually I got a little aggressive with a tall height jack once and had it teeter on only one rear wheel and the jack opposite corner front

 

[luillo]

I won't have any good info for a few weeks, or more.

The initial development is boring.

I am going to be working on a new video though! I'm going to be famous!

I get about 15 calls each day about pinion angle. I am going to make a super easy video showing how simple it is.

He'll yeah, please make sure you explain the math. I suck at it

 

[Tight Lines]

I won't have any good info for a few weeks, or more.

The initial development is boring.

I am going to be working on a new video though! I'm going to be famous!

I get about 15 calls each day about pinion angle. I am going to make a super easy video showing how simple it is.

Will it include 1 and 2 PC drive shafts?