Anyone run Eibach R1 or R2 coilovers?

[Whiskey11]

You are just grasping at straws here... "I think its made by the tooth fairy". If you're just guessing, as you clearly are here, don't bother to post. It only muddies the waters.


Don't put words in my mouth, bub. I don't mention these warnings because "I'm a hater" - that not how we do business.

We don't take photos of everything, particularly when it's not something we sell or develop. How do you show worn out chrome and substandard hardening in a photo? But we do have some Eibach bent shaft pics as well as other brands that have bent housings or shafts, and on and on. Posting those gets complicated when you run a real business, and not just some internet keyboard cowboy slinging mud. It isn't worth the battles with the fanbois or the manufacturers - so I just give my honest onions and warnings and leave it at that.

We've been an Eibach dealer for many years, and have sold their swaybars and lowering springs to hundreds of people. But after seeing their coilover products at trade shows, talking to their engineers, then seeing issues directly on customer's cars and hearing from dozens more that had failures in short order when racing on these "who knows where they are made" dampers, we chose NOT to sell or support this brand. Its as simple as that.

We don't sell a LOT of brands of dampers that we can get through our wholesale supplies or direct from the manufacturer - Koni, KW, Tein, and any dampers made in China. There are various reasons why we don't sell those brands and even better reasons why we do sell the brands we support. But one thing is for certain - I don't have to justify my reasons or offer up further proof to "departments of boost", whatever the hell that means.

/unsub

Did you really just call Department of Boost not a real company? The lows you sink to are damn impressive sometimes.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

As long as we're slinging mud, can we talk about Panhard bars vs. Watts links?

I kid, I kid!!

Keeping it SOMEWHAT on topic:

KC, I will freely acknowledge that I am NOT a damper expert, by any stretch. That said, I am familiar with the engineering paradigm that lies behind development of a race part, and high-end dampers are no exception. When developing a race part, your concerns are: legality for class use (if targeted), minimizing tolerance and variance in function over the designed operating range, maximizing strength while simultaneously minimizing weight, survivability over the desired lifespan between service or replacement. How the foregoing are prioritized determines the "character" of that manufacturer's offering. Then, finally, cost. Nowhere in there is a focus on long-term survivability, given that race teams are fanatical about maintenance and overhaul. When races can be lost or won by thousandths of a second, nobody is going to even consider NOT servicing a part to ensure that it's in 100% top form before a race. "Good enough" simply isn't.

In the case of dampers, they're looked at really no differently than something like an engine. Top Fuel: The engines are rebuilt between every run. F1: Engine tolerances are so tight, that they have to pre-heat the water and oil to bring the whole engine up to operating temp just to start it without doing damage. NASCAR: The engines require rebuilds after roughly 500-600 miles of service. Nobody tries to build a 358cid V8 engine that makes 900HP and spins over 9000rpm that will last for 1000 miles. Why? Because as the engine wears, tolerances open up, parts fatigue, and power is lost. From the viewpoint of a race team, saving the $7000 a refresh costs isn't worth it if the motor pops 50 miles from the finish line of the SECOND race. If you just ran Thunderhill for 25 hours straight, would you use the same engine for next years' 25 without a refresh? Can you say "DNF?"

Dampers are much the same story. The race-spec pieces are (hopefully) built to tight tolerance levels, but that means a wearing soft-part will start to affect the damping function, and will thus require a refresh. Since they know the race teams are rebuilding them on a frequent basis (for track-specific tuning most commonly), they will ALWAYS opt for the highest-precision part, even if it wears insanely quickly by OEM standards, knowing that it'll be replaced while the team shock guy has it apart. Where an OEM is willing to overbuild the hell out of something to ensure longevity at the expense of precision on a part that 99% of the populace doesn't even know is in there, a race team won't. Given a choice between a high-lifespan seal and one with lower stiction/hysterisis/whatever, you know which will be selected. The high-grade dampers are aimed at the racers, not the street-car folks. We all know to change the engine oil to keep the motor alive. Most of us know to change the diff and trans fluids as well. DOT4 brake fluid ages out in 6 months or less; a LOT less with a good amount of heat added to it. How about the damper fluids? They burn up too, but not many people think about that. Cooked fluid in an OEM strut will most likely be undetected by the average driver. Still got a gas charge, and no visible fluid leaks? It's good! Not so much. Same situation with a Sachs triple-adjustable equipped car? Rebuild, and you'll know you need it.

This is one of the compromises that the dual-purpose guys have to face. Can they appreciate, want, and really make use of a race-spec damper? Absolutely. Do they want to deal with the hassle of service every few months? Not generally. As a result, they go for the Koni/Bilstein/Tokico dampers. Are they better than stock? Absolutely, without question. Will they *generally* last a reasonable amount of time? Yes. Are they as good as Penske, Ohlins, JRi, et al? Nope. Not a chance.

It's akin to somebody being annoyed about hood flutter when they just installed a single-layer carbon fiber race hood that doesn't even have hinge bosses mounted to it. It's a race part, intended for race cars, not street cars. The same metrics just don't apply.

In the end, race parts are developed for race cars. Period. They can be used on street or dual-purpose cars, but they come with compromises. Durability is one, NVH is another. Cost for a low-volume, high-precision specialty part is obvious.

I know where you're coming from, and I get what you're trying to achieve. I won't say it's impossible to develop a high-spec damper that holds it's damping curve for an extended lifetime, but I will bet a LOT that it would be awfully bloody expensive. The "average" street folk won't buy it (You want HOW MUCH????). The race teams won't buy it (they'll still want to service it and adjust the curves on a weekly basis), which leaves the market looking awfully small.

 

[claudermilk]

Great post as usual, Dave. Gives us dual-purpose guys food for thought.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Thanks.. I'm not trying to say "don't buy good dampers," not at all. In fact, after tires, the damper/spring combo has the most influence on how the car behaves. If you're a "limited mileage" dual-purpose guy, then it very well may pay off going with a big-boy damper. If you're driving 70 miles each way to work every day, not so much. If you're THAT guy, though, you may want to consider buying an econobox to use as a commuter, and dedicating the 197 to track/weekend use, which puts you into striking range of the higher-end stuff making sense. FYI, my daily is a Focus ST, bone stock, and has only been on the track for one weekend... That's what I have a race car for.

 

[Sky Render]

Yeah, great post. I was thinking about dropping some serious coin on new dampers and coilovers, but now I'm wondering if I should just use some Koni-based coilovers so I can still put 5k street miles a year on my Mustang in addition to autocrosses and occasional track days.

I've got a daily driver, but I still take my Mustang out at least several times a week. I can't not drive it on the street.

 

[SlowJim]

FYI, my daily is a Focus ST, bone stock, and has only been on the track for one weekend... That's what I have a race car for.

That's the way to do it. I used to have a fun car (miata) and a daily driver hyundai accent. I just ended up driving the fun car all the time anyways since I hated the accent. Gotta have a DD that's still fun.

 

[CobraRed]

If you're THAT guy, though, you may want to consider buying an econobox to use as a commuter, and dedicating the 197 to track/weekend use.

WARNING

This is a slippery slope. While I do still recommend trying it at least once in your life, this leads to the toxic freedom rational:

- Well, I dont daily this car anymore so I don't need A/C.

- Well, i have a 4 seater daily, so I don't need rear seats.

- Without rear seats, might as well throw in a cage.

- All this carpet is really annoying trying to work this cage in here, might as well remove it.

- This dash is getting in the way, do I even need it now? I don't even have speakers anymore.

- Might as well choose spherical over poly everywhere, I barely drive the car.

- Why do I have a pump gas tune? I use like no gas on a weekly basis. Race Gas!

The time freedom is the worst

- Oh crap, this thing is broken or not working right or making noise or should be upgraded. Well, it's not like I need this thing on the road after the weekend for work, I'll finish this up later.

Flash forward a year or so, the car is so specialized it's either illegal to drive on the road or a complete bother (mainly doing it for the ridiculousness of it, I valeted my car in La Jolla, San Diego in this condition at a restaurant).

Worse yet, it's as often on wheels as it is on jack stands "awaiting" this and "still tinkering" on that.

It's the reason I currently own this car and sold my last. If you don't have a ton free time and licences to use it (from your SO), I personally don't recommend this route unless you have a lot of personal restraint and live close to a track you like going to.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Did you really just call Department of Boost not a real company? The lows you sink to are damn impressive sometimes.

No, just poking fun at the internet forum tendency to not put a real name in your signature on posts - its even more important when you are a business (and I don't know the company in any case, just this guy's love of all things Eibach, heh).

Whiskey, we know you don't like anything we do or sell, and that's OK.

 

[Sky Render]

Any suggestions on a good coilover setup that wouldn't need to be rebuilt every 5,000 miles?

 

[CobraRed]

Any suggestions on a good coilover setup that wouldn't need to be rebuilt every 5,000 miles?

In my opinion, KW V3's.

Not as track focused as some dampers, but very capable and my buddy has had them on his BMW (which he's done a hand full of HPDE events with) I think 20-25k miles.

They also have a life time warranty even though I also know friends that pay them to rebuild some of their more race focused dampers just as preventative maintenance after a season or two. Their warranty can also be difficult to actually use, you have to be persistent I hear.

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

Reading this makes me think i might need to rebuild my R-2s..... over 75k miles and counting!!! LOL

 

[modernbeat]

Any suggestions on a good coilover setup that wouldn't need to be rebuilt every 5,000 miles?

Actually, most of the competition oriented monotube suspensions will last well beyond 15k miles before a rebuild, and 10k+ miles before you notice a decrease in performance.

The difference is if they are running super low viscosity oil and low drag seals. I have a set of Koni 2812s that can be built either way. With the low drag parts they have a performance drop off after four events. With the standard parts they lasted about 11k miles on a heavily abused car before the performance drop off and another 8k miles before I rebuilt them.

The AST 4150, many Motons and all Motion Controls were built standard with durable seals. The downside of the durable seals is a small amount of extra friction in the very low suspension speed range. But for a strut, it doesn't matter. The top guide has even more friction, so it doesn't make sense to put the low drag seals in a strut unless you are also putting roller shaft guides in it, and those are truly a competition only feature that you don't want on a street car. The extra friction is more noticeable on flyweight cars. But on these flyweight cars we go through extreme measures to reduce friction in the suspension. Every suspension joint either has needle bearings or a spherical. There are no bushings, not metal, not nylon, not poly and particularly not rubber. Even the swaybars may ride in a bearing to reduce friction.

The dampers that have lightweight seals are going to be Penske (if requested), Koni 28 series (standard) and Bilstein MDS series (if requested).

That said, performance dampers are like performance tires. With a lot of wear the performance does drop off. Fortunately, they can be rebuilt and the performance is back. The same can't be said for non-performance or inexpensive sealed dampers, as I've seen early failures in many sealed shocks that signaled their death. Just because they are sealed does not guarantee longevity.

 

[Whiskey11]

No, just poking fun at the internet forum tendency to not put a real name in your signature on posts - its even more important when you are a business (and I don't know the company in any case, just this guy's love of all things Eibach, heh).

Whiskey, we know you don't like anything we do or sell, and that's OK.

Doesn't look like joking to me, just your typical passive aggressive "Better than everyone" attitude poking through.

As for your business, up until your PM's, I never had a SINGLE PROBLEM with your business and was strongly considering buying stuff from Vorshlag. I had sent countless people your way from all of the forums I'm on to buy products that you make and sell. Modernbeat found this out when he made the SAME STATEMENT on ModdedMustangs. Of course YOU wouldn't know that I wanted to buy stuff from you because you aren't me.

I definitely DID question the NEED for everything you were recommending and tried to become informed before making purchases and that's when you sent those lovely PM's (of which I still have, by the way) showing how unprofessional you are because we don't agree on certain aspects of car setup. I'm sorry I don't buy into the nutswinging you expect from the average customer and chose to be educated to make sure I'm not pissing money away on something I don't need.

As for customer experiences, I know I'm not the only person who has received absolutely lovely Fairisms in both Email and PM's and if you'd like, we can air out that dirty laundry now if you want.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

A while back I worked up a chart on the differences between a pure street car, a dual-purpose machine, and a true track-toy, in how they act on the track and on the street...

Above the line is track manners, below is street response, and left-to-right is the graduation from stock street car to pure track toy.

 

[SlowJim]

Doesn't look like joking to me, just your typical passive aggressive "Better than everyone" attitude poking through.

As for your business, up until your PM's, I never had a SINGLE PROBLEM with your business and was strongly considering buying stuff from Vorshlag. I had sent countless people your way from all of the forums I'm on to buy products that you make and sell. Modernbeat found this out when he made the SAME STATEMENT on ModdedMustangs. Of course YOU wouldn't know that I wanted to buy stuff from you because you aren't me.

I definitely DID question the NEED for everything you were recommending and tried to become informed before making purchases and that's when you sent those lovely PM's (of which I still have, by the way) showing how unprofessional you are because we don't agree on certain aspects of car setup. I'm sorry I don't buy into the nutswinging you expect from the average customer and chose to be educated to make sure I'm not pissing money away on something I don't need.

As for customer experiences, I know I'm not the only person who has received absolutely lovely Fairisms in both Email and PM's and if you'd like, we can air out that dirty laundry now if you want.

I'm sorry but I have to jump in here. You are acting like a child. No one cares about your personal grudge against Terry and his business. People like me prefer this forum over the 9999 other Mustang forums because it is a place where people who know their stuff can maturely and intelligently discuss and debate setup on the S197 chassis, without drama. No one is provoking you. If you have a problem, PM or email him like an adult.

This thread is about Eibach coilovers, which I don't believe you have any experience with. The only suspension you seem to know anything about is Ground Controls, which you seem to remind us of in about 90% of your posts.

Come to think of it... what are you even doing here? You don't even own an S197 any more. I don't care enough to take sides, but I'm sick of your whining. I am inclined to trust Terry and his engineering degree plus decades of racing and setup experience in probably a dozen different chassis, plus multiple track records, versus yours.

 

[Whiskey11]

I'm sorry but I have to jump in here. You are acting like a child. No one cares about your personal grudge against Terry and his business. People like me prefer this forum over the 9999 other Mustang forums because it is a place where people who know their stuff can maturely and intelligently discuss and debate setup on the S197 chassis, without drama. No one is provoking you. If you have a problem, PM or email him like an adult.

This thread is about Eibach coilovers, which I don't believe you have any experience with. The only suspension you seem to know anything about is Ground Controls, which you seem to remind us of in about 90% of your posts.

Come to think of it... what are you even doing here? You don't even own an S197 any more. I don't care enough to take sides, but I'm sick of your whining. I am inclined to trust Terry and his engineering degree plus decades of racing and setup experience in probably a dozen different chassis, plus multiple track records, versus yours.

The level of hypocrisy is impressive. So Terry is allowed to begrudge other vendors on this forum because of his "engineering degree" and "decades of car setup" and no one else is allowed to express their opinion because Fair is god right? That's what you are advocating.

You apparently know nothing about me either. My 2009 is still sitting in the garage and I still own it. In fact if I wanted to I could walk away from the purchase of the 2015 today if I wanted to give up the $500 deposit I put on it to order it. The car hasn't even been built yet. You also don't know that while I may not be in the engineering field now, I went to college to be one. I have a very good working knowledge of how the S197 chassis responds to modification and was a long time contributor here before Fair was ever a member or vendor here.

As for PMing Fair, I received the following PM's from your god after pointing out that my car, on 275lbs/in rear springs did not have SPINECRUSHING(TM) ride quality.



That's the "Mature" and "adult" discussion HE initiated with me after he criticized the way my car handled and rode without ever having driven my car or any car set up like it. I have had people with far more pedigre then him in my car and absent Dave from SPS who caught the car in a really fucked up car setup place, not a single one of them thought the car's issue was handling balance. Power, brakes, and weight, yes. Overall grip, yes, but handling balance itself, never.

Carry on.

 

[CobraRed]

 

[stkjock]

Gents - all of you, let's stay on topic please

 

[kcbrown]

Dampers are much the same story. The race-spec pieces are (hopefully) built to tight tolerance levels, but that means a wearing soft-part will start to affect the damping function, and will thus require a refresh. Since they know the race teams are rebuilding them on a frequent basis (for track-specific tuning most commonly), they will ALWAYS opt for the highest-precision part, even if it wears insanely quickly by OEM standards, knowing that it'll be replaced while the team shock guy has it apart. Where an OEM is willing to overbuild the hell out of something to ensure longevity at the expense of precision on a part that 99% of the populace doesn't even know is in there, a race team won't. Given a choice between a high-lifespan seal and one with lower stiction/hysterisis/whatever, you know which will be selected. The high-grade dampers are aimed at the racers, not the street-car folks. We all know to change the engine oil to keep the motor alive. Most of us know to change the diff and trans fluids as well. DOT4 brake fluid ages out in 6 months or less; a LOT less with a good amount of heat added to it. How about the damper fluids? They burn up too, but not many people think about that. Cooked fluid in an OEM strut will most likely be undetected by the average driver. Still got a gas charge, and no visible fluid leaks? It's good! Not so much. Same situation with a Sachs triple-adjustable equipped car? Rebuild, and you'll know you need it.

This is one of the compromises that the dual-purpose guys have to face. Can they appreciate, want, and really make use of a race-spec damper? Absolutely. Do they want to deal with the hassle of service every few months? Not generally. As a result, they go for the Koni/Bilstein/Tokico dampers. Are they better than stock? Absolutely, without question. Will they *generally* last a reasonable amount of time? Yes. Are they as good as Penske, Ohlins, JRi, et al? Nope. Not a chance.

Etc.

What an excellent message!

It would be very interesting to know just how large the market for intermediate dampers really is.

In today's world of CNC fabrication equipment, laser cutters, and other ways of producing extreme-precision parts, you'd think the production costs of durable damper pieces would be quite a bit less nowadays than before. My suspicion is that the majority of the cost of producing a high-precision damper is in the assembly and the engineering, but that's just a guess.

I know where you're coming from, and I get what you're trying to achieve. I won't say it's impossible to develop a high-spec damper that holds it's damping curve for an extended lifetime, but I will bet a LOT that it would be awfully bloody expensive. The "average" street folk won't buy it (You want HOW MUCH????). The race teams won't buy it (they'll still want to service it and adjust the curves on a weekly basis), which leaves the market looking awfully small.

Between that and what modernbeat said about the longevity of dampers such as AST and MCS, yeah, the need for a damper that's engineered directly for daily drivers who also want as much performance as they can get out of their dampers is obviously going to be fairly small. Might depend on how much of a longevity difference there really would be, though. 10K to 15K between rebuilds seems a bit low (a daily driver can go through that in less than a year).


And finally, there's the question of just how much of a difference in performance there would be between a damper designed to hit the same pricepoint as dampers such as AST or MCS, but with substantially greater longevity, versus the AST, MCS, etc. dampers that are designed primarily for performance and which get whatever longevity they get. Would the performance difference between them be enough to overpower the natural variation you'd find in the driving of someone who is obviously going to be making the other compromises in the suspension to keep the car a daily driver in the first place?

 

[Department Of Boost]

That impact longevity and/or time between rebuilds? What other things impact that?




(Sent with Tapatalk, so apologies for the lackluster formatting)

Gas pressure.