Track Seat Options

SoundGuyDave

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I honestly can't answer that. I think it would all depend on when the system scans. Seeing as how it did pick up the "missing" sensors without a battery disconnect, I would bet that it scans every time the key is turned, so replacing the sensors should turn the lights off. The 'puter may still store the trouble codes in memory, but I think the idiot lights will be off. Worst case, pull the airbag fuse, and that will power-cycle the system.

All the idiot light does is flash a code (GM OBD-I style, count the pulses) when you fire the car up. Then it just sits on steady. I honestly don't even notice it anymore.
 

latch5

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Track Seat Options (revisited)

Pretty much have taken SoundGuyDave's advise & put a stop on too many mod dreams and concentrating on a good platform to build on. Installed the Tein Flex Coil Overs I got from Steve Poe (thanks Steve) - Had the car aligned & corner balanced. Nice improvement over the Tokico Ds & Steeda Ultra Lites (which are for sale along with Steeda camber plates).

For the seats- wanting to keep budget under a grand if possible (seat/harness/bar). Unfortunately having no luck finding stores that stock seats so I can try for fit/comfort (Portland, Or). Have sat is several that were in other cars but most do not have a snug fit. I am 5'9" with 31" waste. Only exception is a Recaro Profi SPA which fits great - but the cost of this one blows the budget with nothing left for the harness.

Here is my question.

I saw a M3 with a Profi SPA (without a harness). He ran the seatbelt thru the side harness openings - locks it in place with a CG. Shoulder strap runs outside of the haness openings. It seems that the heavily bolstered seat design should hold you in place if the belt is cinched tight. Can add a proper harness later. Has any one tried this type of set up or can see a glaring flaw in my thinking?
 

danbev07

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Has any one tried this type of set up or can see a glaring flaw in my thinking?

Can add a proper harness later.

Found a flaw. Safety is something that should be prioritized IMHO. If you don't have the "proper harness" to go with a seat, then wait until you do before you install that seat!
 

SoundGuyDave

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I throw a big +1 to that... Safety systems are exactly that: systems. The "flop" in a stock seat, combined with the 3-point belt (and pyrotechnic tensioners), airbags, and crumple zones make a pretty effective safety system. It's designed to gradually slow your body, thus dissipating force over time.

The converse, a race seat, plus 5/6/7-point harness, plus head/neck restraint ALSO makes a pretty effective safety system. It's designed to redirect the crash forces onto the skeletal structure, and away from softer tissues and organs.

Mixing the two may not be the best solution.

Given how stupid-simple it is to swap seats in our chassis, however, unless your car is a full-on track whore, it makes great sense to swap the setups back and forth for track and street duty. I use the Ultrashield Road-Race Pro seats, and while there are more comfortable seats available for long-range cruising, they are more than workable for driving 3-4 hours to and from a track. On the track itself, the only thing you'll notice about the seat is how it LOCKS you in place! Sit yourself down on a coffee table, or other hard, flat surface, and slide a dictionary (phone book, something fairly large and tall) against each hip, stand up, and then measure the distance between them, rounding up to the nearest 1/2" increment. That will generate your seat size. If you plan on wearing a race suit, either wear it when you measure, or allow a bit of wiggle room. It seems you're a well-sculpted individual like myself (5'11", 30" waist), so I bet you would take a 15" seat, like I do. Properly sized, the bolsters will not create any pressure on your hips or thighs, but you will NOT be able to slide around in it, either!

Also, the seats are cheap (by comparison), and with good shopping skills, you can do harnesses and seats for both sides, plus a bar for not much more than a grand. Figure the low $300 range for the seat, plus maybe $125 for the harness puts you well under a grand for a pair of each, then it's just a matter of shopping for either a rollbar or a harness bar, depending on your particular needs.
 

latch5

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Makes sense - There are always +/- to consider.

Recaro option - The factory lap/shoulder belt would be utilized and fully functional so I'm not sure there is much of a diff in saftey than using a stock seat. Not sure what you mean by "flop" of stock seat.

Alum option - I had been warned off an alum seat for safety reasons. The theory was if there is an impact that reaches the seat, an alum seat would bend and possibly hurt or pin the driver.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Not sure what you mean by "flop" of stock seat.

If you grab the stock seat and push/pull on it, you'll see quite a bit of give to it...

Alum option - I had been warned off an alum seat for safety reasons. The theory was if there is an impact that reaches the seat, an alum seat would bend and possibly hurt or pin the driver.
Seriously, take a moment and think about that. For the seat to bend enough to pinch/pin you, that implies that there is significant amounts of movement room. Think front impact: The front of the car stuffs itself into a tire wall at, say, 70mph. The car comes to a (sudden) stop, but YOU are still in motion (inertia).

With the stock setup, the pyro fires, tensioning and locking the belt, which due to it's length, begins to stretch. Honestly, it does! Your whole body is still moving forward, but decelerating rapidly. At about the same time, the front airbag deploys, and your torso and head have a (relatively) soft pillow to smack into, completing the deceleration. Leaving out crumple zones and crush space in the chassis, the net force of the impact has been dissipated by the safety system over both time and distance.

Now, let's look at the same scenario, but this time with aluminum race seats, 5-point harness, and a head/neck restraint, like a DefNder or HANS. The car still hits the tire wall at 70mph, and you start flying forward. The first thing that happens is that the anti-sub strap(s) pull down on the lap belts, forcing them down onto your pelvis, and away from the all the nice, soft, squishy organs, like liver, spleen, etc. Now, at this point, your pelvis is pretty well locked in place by the belts. What about your torso and head? Well, if your belts were tight, like they were supposed to be, you will get a minimal amount of belt stretch (much shorter overall length than OE means less net stretch), and then become completely taught. This does several things. First, it locks the horsecollar of the head/neck restraint down over your collarbones and onto your ribcage, spreading the impact energy over a wider area, but again on solid bone, not squishy bits. At this point, your torso comes to a stop, with all the energy thus far transmitted across bone. Your head, though, is still in motion, but not for long! As soon as your head (helmet encased, of course!) reaches the limits of the head/neck restraint (call it "HNR") tethers, your helmet (and your skull, and your neck) will STOP moving forward, as the force is redirected through the tethers, and down onto the horsecollar, where it meets, you guessed it: BONE.

With the "race" setup, you will experience higher peak G-load (decel) than with the OE setup, but there's a higher safety factor in that the seat and belts have positioned you to take the entire impact on bone, with no organ involvement. Second issue is that of a glancing blow, which in an OE setup will trigger the SRS, and deploy your airbags, which may not be what you want to have happen when you're struggling for control in a car that's ricocheted off a wall and is now sideways at high speed...

Let's back up for a second, though, and take a look at the seat, and what was happening with it through this crash. For it to fold enough to crease and pinch or trap you, it would have to move quite a bit, but where is the space for that motion? All the force is forward, and your back will pretty well prevent the seatback from folding forward. Let's go worst-case scenario: the seat itself completely tears away from the mount! Where's it going to go? Not forward, since you are actually restrained by the belts, and there's not enough mass to the seat to do any real damage (low mass over a VERY large surface area: back, butt, thighs, calves).

Now, let's turn the crash around, and suppose that you spun and backed into the tire wall at the same speed. With the OE setup, all you have to keep your torso in position is the locking mechanism on the recline function of the seat. Granted, even if the seat back fails, you'll dissipate the bulk of the energy transitioning from torso-vertical to torso-horizontal, and the headrest will keep your cervical alignment well enough to stay among the living.

With the race seat, there's no recline function, however, the principle still applies. The side bolsters (or the whole seat pan) would have to tear out to let the seat back "fall" into the horizontal plane, but you're still dissipating energy. Now we need to touch on a little bit of tech. FIA homologated seats (like the $1000+ Sparcos, etc.) are engineered with a certain amount of flex to the seat back, that is designed to trade distance for force. Non FIA seats, like the aluminum Ultrashield or Kirkey seats, REQUIRE a seat-back brace connected to the rollbar to prevent extreme rearward motion. The force applied to your body is still spread across bone, but even moreso than with the stock seats. The bulk of your mass will be acting directly inline with the seat-back brace (I use the I/O port setup), which transmits the force from you, through the seat (with little motion to speak of), through the brace, into the rollbar, and thus into the chassis of the car. If you're worried about the bottom of the seat coming loose and subbing under the bar, you would have to have FOUR (or more) 5/16" bolts, with fender washers to spread the load, tear through the aluminum seat in shear, which just isn't going to happen in any kind of a survivable crash.

In short, though, what you've been hearing is either an old wive's tale (wearing a seatbelt could trap me in a burning car, so I won't wear it on my way home from the pub with a six-pack onboard...), or the result of some improper installation, like no back brace, or undersized hardware (with no load spreading). The physics of it just don't work. Look at NASCRAP, where the guys crash all the damn time. What are their seats made of? Some run FIA carbon-fiber seats, but most run aluminum... I seriously doubt that any of us, running in S197s at club tracks, are going to be exposed to 180+MPH crashes into concrete. If we build the car up enough to be capable of running those speeds, most likely it will already have a full cage in it.
 

Sleeper_08

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SoundGuyDave

Your post above is very insightful and i really appreciate you taking the time to write it.

One thing I was wondering about was the scenario with stock seats and seat belt and CG lock and a crash helmet. Are there any concerns with the helmet and the airbag on a forward crash or the helmet and the head rest on a rear crash?
 

SoundGuyDave

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SoundGuyDave
One thing I was wondering about was the scenario with stock seats and seat belt and CG lock and a crash helmet. Are there any concerns with the helmet and the airbag on a forward crash or the helmet and the head rest on a rear crash?

I personally wouldn't worry about the CG lock itself, since that only pre-loads the stock belt. When the pyro fires, it'll either be strong enough to pull additional tension, OR there was sufficient lap tension already, and it'll just pull back on the shoulder segment and lock the inertial reels.

There is some though about the combination of a full-face helmet and an airbag, namely that the chin-bar of the helmet will contact first, and could cause the strap to do some soft-tissue neck damage, in combination with a bit of extra force from contacting a theoretically still-expanding bag, rather than an inflated one. On a rear impact, my thinking is that the angled headrest will tend to push your neck forward (since the helmet effectively extends your skull perimiter by about 2"), but I would doubt that it would be, in and of itself, cause for serious injury that wouldn't have occured without it. Theoretically, an open-face helmet will lessen the airbag impact, but will afford you little or no protection from a flash fire, or protect your face in an open car or convertible.

Bottom line for me, is that (general, not directed at anybody):

1) This is NOT the safest thing you can do with your time, and if you're very risk-averse, you may want to reconsider participating.

2) If you're not in a competition setting, then there's no reason to push SO hard that you're riding the ragged edge. To quote a very wise instructor (not me, but I'm stealing the line) "If you think you're going to die, or total the car, SLOW DOWN for Chrissake! This is supposed to be fun!" If you're in a competition setting, then you need to consider your car disposable, and at that point you might as well start putting in large, obtrusive safety equipment, like a rollbar at a minimum, and a full cage ideally.

3) Safety gear is designed to work as a system. Wearing Nomex gloves and shoes for fire protection is kind of pointless if you have shorts and a T-shirt on... Pick an approach and then engineer your safety system around that. Stock is good, honestly, but a bar/seats/harnesses is better on track. A full cage, halo seat, 6-point harnesses and a fire bottle is the best bet though.

4) Only you can decide what is "enough" safety gear. In HPDE settings, you can mitigate your risk by exercising restraint with your right foot, and focusing on good judgement. Yes, "shit happens," Like when Random Asshole's strut ear broke off, dropping the swaybar endlink into one of his front tires, resulting in a high-speed blowout. Both he and the car were fine, BUT it points out that it CAN happen. If you want to protect against every last possible thing, then you need to go full-bore. Fuel cell, fire bottle, full protective clothing (suit, shoes, gloves, nomex undies, balaclava, SA helmet, head/neck restraint), full cage, full containment seat, 6- or 7-point belts, etc. Is it overkill for somebody that "just" runs HPDE? Maybe. IF they know they're prone to "red mist," though, it may be more critical than you think.

In the end, I would NEVER poke fun at somebody that decided to wear all that and signed up for HPDE-1. It's a personal decision, and one that should NOT be budget-driven. If you're going to protect yourself, then pick the components that you are comfortable with, and go from there. Don't EVER go half-assed just because it would cost a couple hundred more to do it right. (HINT: The best stuff is NOT necessarily the most expensive!! FIA seats are huge money, but they also "age out" after 5 years, then require a rear brace like the aluminum ones. Aluminum is cheap, and has no expiration!)

That said, here's where my level of comfort lies:
SA2005 full-face helmet
DefNder head/neck restraint
Ultrashield seats with I/O port back braces (bolted on!)
Simpson latch/link 5-point harnesses
Autopower 4-point rollbar (with a LOT of additional floor reinforcement! Thank you to Philostang for that!)

I also just bought a suit this year (OMP FIA compliant), primarily for use in students' cars where I suspect possible danger. We nearly had an instructor barbecued last year when his student's car caught fire. 550HP gutted/caged Fox mustang, running 315mm tires, with fender flares and the whole shebang. Good thing he had a suit on! It was an oil fire on the headers, but it did lick into the interior before the corner workers got it (and them) out. I'm also wearing nomex driving shoes as well, not for fire resistance, but for better pedal feel. No gloves as of yet, no Nomex undies, no balaclava, but that represents MY level of comfort. As always, YMMV. No harm and no foul if you go with more or less than I do, as long as it's an informed decision! Personally, I'm a lot more afraid of impact injury than I am of fire in my own car, but I have the kit that I need to feel comfortable if I have a student with a car that looks "sketchy." I can borrow gloves if I'm that worried.
 

latch5

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Agreed - SoundGuy - Appreciate the detailed education and time you took. The anti-alum camp that is counciling me is an all out race shop that is into competition which at this point is not in my future. You make a good point about the benefit (or I should say harm) of trying to save a few hundred $$.
I should mention that I was not intending to put in a roll bar as this is a DD also. I was looking at the harness bar that Corbeau markets for $300. Looks to be removable if I needed to. Would this be sufficient for a back brace?
 
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If you're not in a competition setting, then there's no reason to push SO hard that you're riding the ragged edge.

But then you might not catch that z06...:evil:

Yes, "shit happens," Like when Random Asshole's strut ear broke off, dropping the swaybar endlink into one of his front tires, resulting in a high-speed blowout.

Yes...shit definitely "happened" that day. Glad we (the car and I) were able to get home in one piece after that one. :beer: It was actually 2 near misses. The sway bar link ear broke off and sent me pointing towards a tire wall. I didn't realize what exactly happened and went along my merry way. The lap after that was when the tire got ripped up during a turn and if turned out to be the outside tire that blew, I don't know if I could have managed to keep the car out of the forest.
 
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Gray Ghost GT

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But then you might not catch that z06...:evil:

Yes...shit definitely "happened" that day. Glad we (the car and I) were able to get home in one piece after that one. :beer:

Glad to hear you overcame that serious incident on the road course - that must have been quite a moment when that occurred. Mustang guys like to chase and pass Z06s? LOL Yeah, I heard that somewhere. :thumb:
 
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The events that actually happened weren't all that bad. Fortunately, it was a "controllable situation." It's the "what ifs?" that could have changed the story around dramatically.

You have to have "a few screws loose" to run fast and be able to laugh it off. I think I'm missing a couple entirely. :thumb:
 

Gray Ghost GT

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I loss my brakes once at VIR coming through hogs pen at 80 mph, which led me to go off course, but was able to recover and get the car back to the paddock - you can hear me in the video as I'm approaching the tire wall backwards, very relaxed, "damn, this is gonna hurt, LOL". Even my wife got a kick out of the video. No damage, but could have been much worse.

Definitely have to have a few screws loose to enjoy a hobby like this when you're pushing you and the car as hard as you can lap after lap for 30 minute sessions, and laugh at situations where things quickly to go hell fast, but you never give up driving and trying to improve the situation you're in. Important lesson: keep you head about you and never give up.

Oh, and my Sparco Evo2Plus seat held me securely with my 5 point harness. Didn't want to hijack the thread, so I made it relevant to the OPs topic, lol.
 
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SoundGuyDave

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Agreed - SoundGuy - Appreciate the detailed education and time you took. The anti-alum camp that is counciling me is an all out race shop that is into competition which at this point is not in my future. You make a good point about the benefit (or I should say harm) of trying to save a few hundred $$.

The ONLY way that I would even agree with their anti-aluminum campaign would be if they were basing all their recommendations on a full FIA safety package. Ask them what you should do with your $2300 carbon-fiber and Kevlar seat when it expires in five years. If they say nothing, then run, don't walk away... The FIA seats are designed to flex, even in day-to-day use. You can only wiggle something for so long before the basic structure is compromised. You HAVE to run a back brace at that point, which makes the seat subject to all of the "evils" that an aluminum seat apparently represents. If you see in-car vids from AV8SC or something similar where they run FIA seats, you'll notice that they bob and weave all over the place during vehicle transitions. Personally, I like my aluminum that is physically bolted to the structure of the car at four points at seat level, and two additional points right in the square of the back. No movement worth talking about.

I should mention that I was not intending to put in a roll bar as this is a DD also. I was looking at the harness bar that Corbeau markets for $300. Looks to be removable if I needed to. Would this be sufficient for a back brace?

Man... I honestly don't know. I really don't feel qualified to talk about that particular situation. In the event of an "oh shit," you'd be putting an awful lot of load sideways onto an otherwise unsupported tube. With a rollbar, the load is effectively run down through the back-stay tubes, which is longitudinal force, which is where a tube is it's strongest.

That might be a good case for an FIA homologated seat, since they don't require a back brace. Basic rule of thumb: reclining seats are not race seats (duh!), and unless it has an FIA homologation tag on it with the manufacture date, you have to run a back brace to do it right. Come to think of it, if the race shop knew you were running just a harness bar, that may be what's behind the anti-aluminum vibe from them.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I loss my brakes once at VIR coming through hogs pen at 80 mph, which led me to go off course, but was able to recover and get the car back to the paddock - you can hear me in the video as I'm approaching the tire wall backwards, very relaxed, "damn, this is gonna hurt, LOL". Even my wife got a kick out of the video. No damage, but could have been much worse.

That's the kind of "shit happens" that you need to keep in mind. A C5Z06 lost a rear brake hose coming into turn seven at Blackhawk Farms, at probably the second fastest point on the track, just entering the braking zone. Needless to say, he didn't make the corner, and went sideways (D/S leading) into the forest/bog that's right off the end of that corner, about 150' out. Bent the car into a "U" with all kinds of airbags going off everywhere, and fiberglas flying into the air a pretty good way. The driver walked away, no issues, and that was with the stock safety setup with a pretty wicked side impact. Like I said before, it's all about how much risk you're willing to accept.
 
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All this talk about danger is getting me all warm and fuzzy inside. I'm jonesing for some god damn racing.

Sorry. I'm in the midwest and its been beyond boring for too long...and I'm buzzed..
 

latch5

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Decided to take the middle ground - I'll go with a cheaper fiberglass seet (Corbeau FX1 Pro or Sparco Sprint 5. Both (I am told) will have a snug fit.
I'll use the Corbeau harness bar - Still deciding between the Corbeau 5 pt harness and a Schroth Clubman.

Appreciate everyones input

PS The 18" rims I have are very very heavy. I have some 17" stock rims that may not be feather weights but not too bad. Was planning to runn Nitto NT01 245 45 17. Any issues with this that I should know abt?
 

STEVE_POE

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I have the schroth clubman. at $199 in my opinion it's the best belt on the market for that price.

this is a pretty good deal on some seats

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=32876

this just came up today as well

http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=33190

try this guy. he has the best prices around for me.Plus he is a mustang guy


http://www.on-trackperformance.com/

these guys have some good deals as well. look in the closeouts section

www.ogracing.com

I have a out of date ultrashield cam lock belt I'd let go for $75 it's a nice 6 point belt . just out of date for my series. "2years"




glad you like the flex kit.

Steve
 
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irishpwr46

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i was in my brothers WRX the other day and it has some decent bolster seats also with side air bags. i wonder if these could be made to work with our cars?
 

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