06 Saleen Extreme: car not performing as expected on dyno

[forgedE]

Hey guys, glad to be a part of S197forum.com.

I have an 06 Saleen Extreme that i need some tech. assistance on. before any mods, i ran the car on the dyno 2 separate times, 2 different dyno's. i will state history.

Dynojet/mod history:

- bare bones:
Alternative dynorun: 456/461tq 12.5 psi

- Add pypes o/r H:
- Add tensioner bracket to stop belt slip:
Walsh dynorun 1: 486/481tq 12.5 psi
Walsh dynorun 2: 462/456tq 12.5 psi
Walsh dynorun 3: 456/459tq 12.5 psi

Add:
- BGG Performance 8 rib conversion
- innovative west 15% crank pulley
- 2.95" s/c pulley (stock E was 2.87")
- Saleen Extreme ultimate CAI (900 MAF)
- Upgraded spark plugs
- Bosch 60# injectors
- McLeod twin disc clutch
- Steeda LCA's
- 315/35/20 Nitto Invo on 11" HPD - MSR
- Walsh Tune

Walsh dynorun 1: 497/501tq 15 psi
-Remove Pypes o/r H:
Walsh dynorun final: 490/499tq 15 psi

Another member here (MIKEBNA) has the same exact car. His stock dynorun was 464whp. He has the stock 6 rib (with 2.87" s/c pulley) and his mods are as follows

- roush tensioner
- ported saleen lid
- vacuum line upgrade
- 10% overdrive crank pulley
- 60# injectors
- autolite hto plugs gapped at .030
- fore precision fuel rails
- ultimate saleen intake
- frpp 62mm tb
- jdm tune
- 315/35/20 Nitto NT05 rear tires
- steeda lca's

He dynoed on a Dyno Dynamics which adds in road conditions and can account for a 23-25% drivetrain loss of power from dynojet to dyno dynamics.

After his mods:
Dynamics dynorun 1: 440/470tq 15.5 psi - 11.1 - 11.5 A/F
- add tuning adjustments
Dynamics dynorun final: 484/521tq 15.5 psi - 12.1 - 12.5 A/F (maxed A/F)

Just so you guys know, i have had thousands of problems with this car. the car only has 10,500 miles on it as of right now, and within the first year, i've warrantied 2 superchargers, 3 cluthes, 1 boost sending unit, 1 rear end, and some other parts. Everything is replaced and should be in good to great running condition.

I know this is difficult to consider, but if you make an attempt to translate 484 on a Dyno Dynamics, it should be somewhere about 600+ on a dynojet. Even the owner of BGG Performance told me i am losing 100 hp somewhere and the only thing we can figure is that we dont know what the compression ratio Saleen has in the motor, but when i see MIKEBNA making those numbers, i start to think there is a SERIOUS underlying problem somewhere w/ my E.

Granted, he has the following adders over me:
1 FRPP 62 mm tb
2 Saleen ported s/c lid
3 upgraded vacuum lines
4 fore precision fuel rails

The only things on that list that will add power is the tb and lid, but i wont be making no 600whp with those additions! vacuum lines will show accurate boost on gauge, and my car is not starving for fuel, so fuel rails are not necessary.


Can anyone help me out here? i cant figure out what's wrong here!

 

[tyler_2118]

how many psi are you pushing?

never mind just saw it

ya definitely should be making some more power with 15 psi,

Maybey in the tune?

 

[GrnBullitt08]

Yeah the extra mods he is running should make up for that 100-120hp he making over yours. I would think would you mods and boost levels you would be making somewhere around the 550 mark.

 

[uniquestang]

need more info, but regardless should be running better numbers (though the track will say it best). what about humidity, temperature, intake temps, and were the dyno pulls done consecutive or after cool down.

 

[one eyed willy]

well, you figure,if his s/c is ported....your 15 psi is not equal to his 15 psi. psi is just a measure of resistance, so if he has less resistance than you do, then it will take more mass of air flow to reach your same resistance.....tb could make a slight increase on a s/c, but all the other stuff i wouldnt see making a huge difference over yours. 2 different dynos as well......id look for a better comparison to be honest before you get too worried!!

 

[forgedE]

how many psi are you pushing?

never mind just saw it

ya definitely should be making some more power with 15 psi,

Maybey in the tune?

Thats what i thought too...my gauge shows 13 psi, but the dyno read in at 15. Blower sounds like a finely tuned KB now...it is def making some noise.

Yeah the extra mods he is running should make up for that 100-120hp he making over yours. I would think would you mods and boost levels you would be making somewhere around the 550 mark.

i have been hearing this from everyone; 550 is exactly what i predicted too. if it was 550, i wouldn't have even made this post.

need more info, but regardless should be running better numbers (though the track will say it best). what about humidity, temperature, intake temps, and were the dyno pulls done consecutive or after cool down.

What else would you need to know, i might be able to answer that?

I mean i get what you're saying about see how it runs on the street, but how would the track say it best if im only pushing 490? if the power's not physically there on a dyno, it wont be there on a track either, no? (don't take that wrong because my car is exremely powerful)

well, you figure,if his s/c is ported....your 15 psi is not equal to his 15 psi. psi is just a measure of resistance, so if he has less resistance than you do, then it will take more mass of air flow to reach your same resistance.....tb could make a slight increase on a s/c, but all the other stuff i wouldnt see making a huge difference over yours. 2 different dynos as well......id look for a better comparison to be honest before you get too worried!!

Thank you! i didnt think of that. If the a non-ported s/c is at 15 lbs, would the boost decrease after porting?

humidity was 30%, @ 89 degree's. His pull was in AZ and he said it was 118 there, but desert = low humidity.

Yes, 2 different dyno's. Our numbers = and he has an added 25% load resistance. Obviously every car is different but i just dont expect to see 100+ whp gains/loses between any to of the same cars with slight differences in mods.

He says he has a friend w an 07 E that will be going on his same dyno next week. He said he has LT headers, exhaust, and saleen ultimate intake and is running 12-12.5 psi. awaiting dyno numbers.

attached dyno sheet.

 

[mikebna]

Welcome forgede,

I was also told that the E cars have a restriction in the exhaust, the tuner told me that he could hear it when the car was at WOT. I am still running the Magnaflow cat backs/high flow cats from Saleen.

His suggestion was to redo the piping from front to back? Not sure how much that would help though?

What have you done to your exhaust if anything?

 

[killr3v]

^Would the restriction have anything to do with the butterfly valves in the exhaust? I know my friend's Saleen has them. 07 s281 s/c.

 

[JeremyH]

Add:
- BGG Performance 8 rib conversion
- innovative west 15% crank pulley
- 2.95" s/c pulley (stock E was 2.87")
- Saleen Extreme ultimate CAI (900 MAF)
- Upgraded spark plugs
- Bosch 60# injectors
- McLeod twin disc clutch
- Steeda LCA's
- 315/35/20 Nitto Invo on 11" HPD - MSR
- Walsh Tune

Walsh dynorun 1: 497/501tq 15 psi
-Remove Pypes o/r H:
Walsh dynorun final: 490/499tq 15 psi

If you went from a 2.87 pulley to a bigger 2.95 pulley you decreased boost...

What does upgraded plugs mean? We need to know the exact plug and gap.

 

[Vapour Trails]

315/35/20 Nitto Invo on 11" HPD - MSR

^ How much do these weigh? I'd guess 70 lbs each, not to mention a much larger (28.6") diameter which further increases the energy required to turn them. Likely soaking up a good deal of power.

Anyway, I really don't think your numbers are that far off and bench racing isn't really going to settle anything. You'll never figure out exactly how much each dyno differs, but a 1/4 mile is a 1/4 mile.

 

[Boozshey]

I know people that run 510hp on a 3.2" pulley and normal size crank pulley. I'd be looking for a lot more if I were you. I think it's the tune.

 

[forgedE]

Welcome forgede,

I was also told that the E cars have a restriction in the exhaust, the tuner told me that he could hear it when the car was at WOT. I am still running the Magnaflow cat backs/high flow cats from Saleen.

His suggestion was to redo the piping from front to back? Not sure how much that would help though?

What have you done to your exhaust if anything?

Hey Mike, this is 200sick from stangnet (obviously).

Yes, the restriction is that the airflow smashes against the rear of the muffler as the air is forced out of the 2” center and 2” dump. These mufflers are a tremendously weak design. I have no modifications to my exhaust. I put on a pypes o/r H that was nasty, so I put the stock H back on and got within 7whp between the two. Did you make any modifications to your exhaust? If not, I don’t see a problem with my exhaust considering your numbers.

^Would the restriction have anything to do with the butterfly valves in the exhaust? I know my friend's Saleen has them. 07 s281 s/c.

Not that I know of. The butterfly’s are there to quiet the car down at idle and get lout and WOT and alow for more air to escape. I think the restriction is in the path of the air, combined with splitting it upon exit to 4 separate outlets.

Again, don’t think it’s a huge concern when it comes to rwhp.

If you went from a 2.87 pulley to a bigger 2.95 pulley you decreased boost...

What does upgraded plugs mean? We need to know the exact plug and gap.

Yes I know. Being that it is an 8 rib, I don’t think that if I had a 2.87 made it would fit over my snout without machining it down. If the EXTREME comes with a machined snout already for the stock 2.87, I might be ok, but I can’t figure that out without having the pulley made first. Everyone says to machine the snout of the s/c down, but why couldn’t you just machine the pulley down a little? (thickness of a penny, so ive been told)

Im not sure about the plugs. I told my tuner that MIKEBNA had autolite gapped at .30 and he said “you’ve got plugs”. Is it worth finding out?

315/35/20 Nitto Invo on 11" HPD - MSR

^ How much do these weigh? I'd guess 70 lbs each, not to mention a much larger (28.6") diameter which further increases the energy required to turn them. Likely soaking up a good deal of power.

Anyway, I really don't think your numbers are that far off and bench racing isn't really going to settle anything. You'll never figure out exactly how much each dyno differs, but a 1/4 mile is a 1/4 mile.

My apologies, 11” is the width. 20x11 (I had them widened). These wheels are without a doubt heavy and the tires are without a doubt 28.6” OID but nothing different from stock which is what every other E owner is running. Only difference is, the stock wheels wobble at high speeds.

I might not be too far off, but I need to find out. Yes, but again what would I “expect” to run in a ¼? 12.0? 11.8? 11.5? the guy I bought my pulleys from has the same setup as me, except he built his 281 and has high compression. He made 600 @ 16.5 PSI with an A/T (which shows even smaller numbers) and ran 10.71 1/4. I obviously cant expect to see that with a M/T, but 11.3 should be what the car should run, but it will never happen right now.

I know people that run 510hp on a 3.2" pulley and normal size crank pulley. I'd be looking for a lot more if I were you. I think it's the tune.

Thank you for backing up my research as well. This is exactly what I’ve been encountering! Its simple, people are making higher numbers with my setup. I don’t think it’s the tune, im at 15 degrees of timing as it is.

 

[forgedE]

I know people that run 510hp on a 3.2" pulley and normal size crank pulley. I'd be looking for a lot more if I were you. I think it's the tune.

I make what s281 s/c guys make. Not what s281E guys make! mustang GT's with the saleen kit and 475 uprgrade make 480 all day. im 10 over, big deal.

something's wrong IMO! hopefully someone on here has encountered this problem and has a resolution!

 

[NastyStang113]

Thank you for backing up my research as well. This is exactly what I’ve been encountering! Its simple, people are making higher numbers with my setup. I don’t think it’s the tune, im at 15 degrees of timing as it is.

There's a lot more to tuning modular motors, especially the 3V, than just timing. I think it's the tune too.

 

[ChiDiddy]

easiest way to check if its the tune is to buy an email tune from one of the venders and run it on a dyno. If their email tune puts out better numbers than your dyno tune, dont go back to your tuner

I know its not cheap but if it doesnt produce better numbers, you can eliminate the tune as the culprit.

Email tune is 200 from JDM or Brenspeed if i remember. Dyno runs you around 75 for 3 runs?

 

[mikebna]

I knew these guys would help you out, there is a lot of tech knowledge on here, just glad the mods haven't moved this thread yet for not being techy enough.

If you haven't checked or don't know what your plugs are, check them for sure. Saleen was not overly cautious when they installed the HTO's and they have pretty large gaps, I've seen as much as .040 some say they never even gapped them but put them in right out of the box.

And there is nothing wrong with double checking the tune as has been stated.

And as stated a little track time might not hurt.

 

[Simon]

I'm wondering if it's the tune.

Who is tuning it?

 

[forgedE]

I'm wondering if it's the tune.

Who is tuning it?

Walsh Motorsports, Wixom Michigan. He is very well known and reputable. He is right up there with Pauls High Performance if you ever seen them in 5.0 or mmff mags.

MIKEBNA, who did you speak to over at JDM? Jr. told me that their mail-order tuner's get e guys about 500whp and in-house about 515, and that im right about where i should be. ??? i know you said they made a bunch of suggestions for you to make more, and they didnt really make those suggestions to me.

 

[forgedE]

easiest way to check if its the tune is to buy an email tune from one of the venders and run it on a dyno. If their email tune puts out better numbers than your dyno tune, dont go back to your tuner

I know its not cheap but if it doesnt produce better numbers, you can eliminate the tune as the culprit.

Email tune is 200 from JDM or Brenspeed if i remember. Dyno runs you around 75 for 3 runs?

brenspeed/JDM use SCT, my tune is Diablo Sport, so i would have to buy the programer too.

 

[Simon]

I don't know the Saleen SCs well enough to say what they should be running, but my buddy with a Saleen SC runs around 9.5 psi @ 21 degrees of timing. I run around 17 degrees @10 psi with 91 oct and 16.5 degrees @15 psi. My car makes 540 rwhp. Mine is KB so, I don't think it will translate into what the SAleen usually needs.

I would think your car should make the same as mine, but with all of that dyno explanation I can't really make sense of it.

What are your IATs when you are doing dyno pulls?

At what temp does the tuner have the car set to pull timing?

What timing is your buddy running?