10 Speed Automatic issues while on track

[Pentalab]

You really only have 2 options. Add a ton of cooling mods....and cross your fingers. Or ask for a full refund.....then either buy another car..... or continue modifying the 2010 Roush car. There is plenty of room below the Ford OEM tranny cooler for another cooler on your 2010.

The stick axle cars (05-14) don't have rear diff heating issues. I had the eaton / detroit tru-trac LSD installed at the same time as the WL watts link. The WL watts link comes with a new aluminum diff cover, with 5/8" thick flange..and new SS bolts. I bought a... 'lube locker' diff gasket....works superb, zero leaks. Some portions of the al diff cover are 80 mm thick.... to handle the 60 mm long bolts.... for the 'spider' assy. AL diff cover comes with magnetic drain + fill threaded plugs, makes swapping the gear oil a simple, fast job.


AL conducts heat 3X faster than oem steel diff cover. More overall surface area too. The eaton LSD uses either 80W-90 dino oil.... OR 85W-140 dino oil. You can't use synthetic and /or friction modifiers on the eaton lsd. I changed mine 2 months ago....and swapped from 80W-90 to 85W-140.

The watts link negates the short comings of a pan hard bar. I also installed a catch can on pass side of rear axle. Heavy 2 piece oem DS was replaced with a light weight, 900 hp rated aluminum DSS-DS ( 3.5" OD). Zero vibration on the dyno at 163 mph..(6500 rpm in 4th gear with the 3.31 rear gear + 27" diam rear tires. DS comes balanced from DSS to 9300 rpm.

If you opt to keep the new car and modify it, find out if the mods actually work...esp with the 10 speed auto.

 

[JJ427R]

I'm definitely not putting any money into this car, I am going to pursue a refund/buyback on the car.

I'll continue to use my Roush, I've overheated the trans on that too many times to count, but hell, it's lasted me almost 60,000 miles and 7 years of track days and still going strong, and that is the only issue I've ever had with it. I'll look into additional cooling for that and or drive it until it drops...

 

[Gabe]

I'll be shocked if you're getting the car bought back or any kind of refund.
You've had the car now, what, over 2 months?
You didn't buy a track car.
Ford and/or the selling dealer really owe you nothing if you want to take a car and use it where it wasn't meant to be used on a regular basis.
With the Mustang, Ford has always built a good starting package, and left it to the owner to pursue aftermarket help to turn the car into what they wanted the car to do.
If you want to track it, install coolers. It's pretty simple.

 

[JJ427R]

I didn't buy a track car, but I bought a performance car that is supposed to be able to be used on a track for high performance events and or for spirited driving.
It was two months before I ran my first track day, I had not tried track mode where it was not supposed to be used!
It's also not used on track on a regular basis. 3-4 track days a year. And if it's not meant to be used on track, why does it have a Performance Package with high performance tires, big brakes, and a larger radiator with a Track Mode, Track Apps and Paddle Shifters?
As I stated before, Ford puts the Track Mode with Track Apps on the car, and states it is "only to be used on a track". But yet I'm not supposed to take it on a track without installing additional cooling? That f-ing ridiculous!

And even if I did install additional cooling, the way the track mode is setup for shifting, it would still kill the transmission very shortly. It struggles to find the proper gear, If you let of the throttle and coast, it goes up in gears, then when you get on the throttle, it has to drop several gears to get back to where it should be. It also downshifts itself while going thru corners, which gets you almost out of control. I should not have to shift it manually, if it has a track mode should it not be setup correctly?

And then the most dangerous thing is it going into limp mode while you are on track and shutting down. This could get someone killed. Had someone been right behind me when this shutdown on me I'd have probably been rear ended and wrecked.

I think I've made a pretty good case....

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Ford put it in the owner's manual and most of everyone who bought the car didn't do their research. It sucks but it is what it is.

 

[JJ427R]

Ford put it in the owner's manual and most of everyone who bought the car didn't do their research. It sucks but it is what it is.

Exactly what I said earlier, Ford put it in the owners manual, but you don't get an owners manual until you buy the car. Who reads an owners manual before they buy the car, besides Pentalab?
Ford did not put this in any brochure, nothing about it on the website when you configure a car, or nothing in the PP1 or PP2 descriptions. It's also not in the Track Use section of the manual, only place is the introduction.
I also told my salesperson I was going to use the car for track days, even sent them video of me on track with my Roush, salesperson never told me anything about having to add additional cooling and never told me I couldn't use the car on track. All they said was the good things about the track apps.
It also does not say you have to add additional cooling, they say it is suggested...

 

[Norm Peterson]

I didn't buy a track car, but I bought a performance car that is supposed to be able to be used on a track for high performance events and or for spirited driving.
It was two months before I ran my first track day, I had not tried track mode where it was not supposed to be used!
It's also not used on track on a regular basis. 3-4 track days a year. And if it's not meant to be used on track, why does it have a Performance Package with high performance tires, big brakes, and a larger radiator with a Track Mode, Track Apps and Paddle Shifters?
As I stated before, Ford puts the Track Mode with Track Apps on the car, and states it is "only to be used on a track". But yet I'm not supposed to take it on a track without installing additional cooling?

I just watched a brief Ford-produced youtube video about the Track Apps. What I got out of it on an overall basis is that Track Apps are intended for more of a 'sprint driving' environment rather than 'endurance driving'. It speaks mainly to the drag racers, with a couple of bones thrown out to us corner-carvers (g's and braking). Mainly so we don't feel completely left out, I suspect.

With no aftermarket cooling added, that certainly suggests that while the car should be entirely capable of handling autocross or one lap at a time up above 9/10ths (followed by a cooldown lap or two at reduced speed), there's nothing in there to suggest the car's ability to tolerate extended stints up there.

I will agree that not addressing the endurance aspect of this more clearly is probably on Ford. And I hardly expect any random sales person to have any gut-level feel for what track driving that's still not racing really amounts to.

And even if I did install additional cooling, the way the track mode is setup for shifting, it would still kill the transmission very shortly. It struggles to find the proper gear, If you let of the throttle and coast, it goes up in gears, then when you get on the throttle, it has to drop several gears to get back to where it should be. It also downshifts itself while going thru corners, which gets you almost out of control. I should not have to shift it manually, if it has a track mode should it not be setup correctly?

You've just put your finger on a couple of the big reasons I don't care to drive an AT car anywhere. Let alone out on the track. And that's before getting into the issue of heat management at all.

Though in your specific situation, voice-commanded gear selection might well be the answer.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

It also does not say you have to add additional cooling, they say it is suggested...

For a rank novice to performance driving in a fairly gentle lead-follow environment tightly controlled by the lead car, additional cooling probably isn't necessary even for a 20 minute session. Perhaps not necessary for in-car instructed novice drivers when there's a heavy focus on technique and active discouragement toward speed or lap times for their own sake, either.

But the further up the experience ladder you go, the harder you're going to be using your car and the more you have to look at potential weaknesses in its 100% OE production form. With about 6 years of fairly busy membership over on M6G, I do have some feel for what the S550 needs even though I've never owned or tracked one.


It's really no different from running Motul RBF600 or better brake fluid, pads specifically rated for temperatures reached in track driving but far above anything in street driving, brake cooling ducts, better dampers, up-sized tires on wider wheels, etc., etc.


Norm

 

[JJ427R]

I just filed my complaint with Ford requesting refund/buyback, had contact info for a person there from my first complaint when car first arrived misfiring and had 4 bad spark plugs. I'm anxiously waiting for the response...

 

[JJ427R]

You've just put your finger on a couple of the big reasons I don't care to drive an AT car anywhere. Let alone out on the track. And that's before getting into the issue of heat management at all.

Though in your specific situation, voice-commanded gear selection might well be the answer.

I'm beginning to agree with you on the automatic thing, it's just a lot more money for me to get into a manual trans, add the pneumatic shifting and controlling everything from the wheel such as these, especially when I only do 3 or 4 days a year. If I was racing I'd definitely look into this.
http://www.mme-motorsport.com/en/products/hand-controls

 

[Pentalab]

https://www.jegs.com/i/B-M/130/70255/10002/-1 9800 BTU. 11 x 5.75 x .75 You could easily
install 2 of these, both oriented vertically, below the oem tranny cooler on a 2010 auto. That would provide for an additional 19,600 BTU's of cooling. $82.99 each.

https://www.jegs.com/i/B-M/130/70268/10002/-1 13,000 BTU. 11 x 7.25 x .75 I have ONE of these coolers, mounted horz, directly below my oem cooler. $90.99 each. Same deal as above, 2 of em can easily be mounted vertically, below oem cooler. 2 = 26,000 BTU's of cooling.

Both of the above coolers are only 3/4" thick...and the only coolers that will fit BELOW the oem tranny cooler. On the 2010 car, the eng rad is shrouded. Oem tranny cooler ( aprx 4" tall x 16-18" wide, x 3/4" thick, mounted at the very top)... is sandwiched between eng rad...and AC rad. Roush M90 HE (18" tall x 21" wide x 1" thick) is on standoffs... and mounted in front of AC rad. Small power steering cooler (circular fins) is sandwiched at very bottom.... between AC rad.... and Roush HE.

JJ427R had his oem front bumper modified, to fit a B+M 20K BTU tranny cooler in front of Roush HE. Oem tranny cooler is aprx 10 K BTU. On paper, JJ427R should have 30K BTU cooling.... which still isn't enough ! His tranny gets so hot, ECU will shift tranny into OD (5th).

He has an option to easily add an additional 9800 / 13,000 / 19,600 / 26,000 BTU'S of tranny cooling. ( 33% / 43% / 65% / 87% INCREASE ). I'd use the 26K option. Then it's a total of 56 K BTU's of cooling.

One aeroforce gauge plugged into OBD port, will allow for tranny temps to be monitored.... + a ton of other auto tranny parameters. With just oem cooler, my temps would soar from 170 F (cruising) to 200 F... when gas mashed, blower on... after just 5-8 secs. One 13 K BTU B+m cooler installed, and temps only rise to 171-172 F..... with the same 5-8 sec test on hwy.

I suspect his tranny temps are stupid hot..... to get the ECU to shift into OD. Dunno what the threshold for that is though. Gauge on OBD port would tell you asap.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm beginning to agree with you on the automatic thing, it's just a lot more money for me to get into a manual trans, add the pneumatic shifting and controlling everything from the wheel such as these, especially when I only do 3 or 4 days a year. If I was racing I'd definitely look into this.
http://www.mme-motorsport.com/en/products/hand-controls

Seems you've done a little more than just search for a MT solution . . .

Thanks for the link. From time to time I've wondered what I'd do if I was to lose the ability to use my left leg to operate a clutch (that knee has had reduced range of motion since 1987, courtesy of chasing national points at BMX bicycle racing).


Norm

 

[JJ427R]

I have a transmission temp gauge in the Roush, believe it's about 230* when it will start shifting into overdrive.

Same on the 2018, at about 230* is when it started shifting funny and went into limp mode. Couple sessions later it got up to almost *250 before it limped. But dealer had no codes on the transmission, only on High Engine Temp and that temp was about 230* when it limped.
At this point I'm assuming it was the engine temp causing the limp on the 2018 and not the trans, even though trans was much hotter....

 

[Pentalab]

I have a transmission temp gauge in the Roush, believe it's about 230* when it will start shifting into overdrive.

Same on the 2018, at about 230* is when it started shifting funny and went into limp mode. Couple sessions later it got up to almost *250 before it limped. But dealer had no codes on the transmission, only on High Engine Temp and that temp was about 230* when it limped.
At this point I'm assuming it was the engine temp causing the limp on the 2018 and not the trans, even though trans was much hotter....

You don't even want to know what the OIL temps are....on your 2018. Probably > 300+ F.

So now you require:

More eng coolant cooling.
Eng oil cooling.
Auto tranny cooling
Rear differential cooling.

As you can see what's involved to successfully cool your 2010 tranny, ( 4 x coolers in series),
the 2018 tranny will be another gong show... total cluster fuck, and then some.

The 2010 car never went into limp mode (4 cyls shut down).... so now you have a major problem on the 2018 car.... which will probably require a bigger eng rad + Oil cooler.

How the hell is all that gonna fit under the hood ???

Differential cooling on the 2018 is doable.... but yet another major pita.

 

[JJ427R]

Ford already added a larger radiator with the PP1 pkg. that evidently does not do much, I realize bigger is better but how big does it need to be???
I thought these had a larger oil cooler as well but I'm not positive on that?
Evidently what they have is not near enough if I can't even make it 15 minutes on a track, in Track Mode....

 

[Racer47]

How much bigger is the radiator? Probably not that much.

You could make more than 15 minutes on a different track. The front straight alone is >4000 ft long and 100 ft uphill. That builds a lot of heat. Plus 2 more long straights.

Have you been to Blackhawk or the revised Brainerd layout? Both are more fun to drive and not as hard on the car.

Antifreeze has only 80-85% the cooling capacity of straight water and its a lot easier to change than hanging on more radiators.

 

[JJ427R]

Brainerd is my home track, but have not run this car there yet, only my Roush. Planning on going in Sept or last Oct date on dual tracks. Was considering Blackhawk August 24-25 with Northwoods Shelby(I won a free track day with them) but not sure I trust the car at this point? I have to see what happens with Ford now as well. I have to register for Blackhawk before Aug 2nd so have a few days to contemplate it.....
BIR's straight on long track is almost a mile long....

 

[Racer47]

Yeah but I thought they didn't run the old long track down the drag strip anymore, just the short track.

I ran the old brainerd in my gt1 car, turn 1 was damn fast.

I like blackhawk, its fun to drive, and fast enough for street cars. It could more runoff in some areas, but I still like it.

 

[JJ427R]

They still run the long track, but only a few days a year. They run 2 sessions on the short track in the am and then move to the long track for 4 sessions in the afternoon. I love the long track and turn 1, I bury my needle at 140 in my Roush and carry about 130 thru turn 1(I don 't have the seeds yet to hold it down like some do) But that track is actually faster than RA and I overheat my Roush quickly on it.

 

[Pentalab]

Straight 100% distilled water + perhaps some water wetter may well decrease eng coolant temps a bit.
I wouldn't hold my breath if it was enough to keep it out of limp mode. The boiling point would
also decrease. It would be worth a try. The loop is under a bit of pressure, so the boiling point would be > 212 F. The water wetter would stop any bubbles forming.

The 100% distilled water + water wetter trick could also be used on the Roush....both eng..and IC-HE loop.

Then revert back to the 50-50 water / glycol mix in the fall.

The Boss 302 rad was 1.5" thick.. vs 1.0" thick for the GT rad. The FRPP rad was 2" thick.