10 Speed Automatic issues while on track

Discussion in '2015+ S550 Mustang Chit Chat' started by JJ427R, Jul 9, 2019.

  1. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

    Age:
    71
    2,920
    57
    I'm pretty sure that the diff temperature sensor was a running production change and that at least the first-year S550s didn't get one.

    Keep in mind that the S550's differential is inherently less capable of shedding the heat that is generated internally than the S197 or most any other stick-axle design. No axle tubes to act as radiators, tucked up out of the airflow in a cradle (vs hanging out there in the open like the S197's stick-axle diff with only the driveshaft and the UCA in the way). The S550's airflow in the region of the diff is pretty warm to begin with, with those exhaust pipes in close proximity to the diff. Even if the pipes don't add any heat to the diff, they reduce the heat flow out of the diff by reducing the metal surface vs air temperature difference.

    This is a known track-day issue with every S550 trim from the GT, through its PP1 and PP2 iterations, up to and including the early year non-R GT350, and has been discussed fairly heavily elsewhere.


    There's a lot going on inside an automatic transmission, especially one with 10 forward ratios. In this case, there's four planetary gearsets, four clutches, and two brakes. Some of the intermediate ratios have some of the transmission internal components rotating at higher than engine rpms. and there can be large rpm differences across friction elements that are not engaged (think viscous friction causing heat here).

    https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/12/saturation-dive-ford-10-speed-transmission-power-flow/


    Norm
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  2. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    I will fight that warranty all day as in Pages 246-247 is the "Track Use" section of the manual and it states "Track mode is for Track use only". It also explains changing oil to 10w30 when on track. Sorry but you can't promote taking the car on track, have a track use section in your manual, and then not covering it.
     
  3. jewc75

    jewc75 Cant Stop, Wont Stop

    18,358
    54
    Just as a fair amount of 13-14 owners fought the line lock causing issues but didnt get anywhere.
     
  4. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    I know of a gentleman that had a GT350 start on fire on track when the oil line came off the car, Ford gave him a new car. Ford has been very good about replacing Blown Motors/Cars with the GT350's, I can only hope they will do the same with my GT
     
  5. Aerofinz

    Aerofinz Junior Member

    44
    11
    Good luck.
     
    jewc75 likes this.
  6. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

    2,853
    144
    Hope you haven't sold your 2010 Roush. 7 simple mods would transform the handling... over and above it's current state. Plug and play.
     
  7. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    Still have the Roush, but as you know that was having the tranny overheating issues as well and would shift itself into overdrive even with the additional cooling. I'm about ready to sell em both and get Chevy... God please don't strike me down for saying that....

    My car is going to the local dealer to get checked out on Thursday so I guess I'll just wait and see what happens....

    I also filed a complaint with Ford this morning on how dangerous it is for the car to go into limp mode and shut down while on track in track mode.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  8. Racer47

    Racer47 Doesn't have much to say S197 Team Member

    652
    38
    First off, I understand you're complaints and also think the car should be more track ready. On the other hand, Road America is very hard on "normal" cars. Its really an Indy car and IMSA Prototype type track. There are 3 long straights that build a ton of heat, without much off throttle cooling time. You may be asking too much from the car even though its supposed to be track ready.

    Also 10 speeds are too many. Its a fuel econ thing and I can't see it ever being really good on the track without some sort of track and / or driver specific programming.

    Back when I ran GT1 there was a guy in a Camaro automatic. It was a 3 speed with a loose torque converter, manual valvebody and a huge trans cooler. He was fast and the car easy lasted the for the 10-12 lap scca national races at Road America. You may be better off with a real race car (GT1, GT2, GT3, TA2) with a purpose built auto.

    This car with a purpose built C6 (or a C4 or AOD) would be wicked fast and reliable.

    https://www.racingjunk.com/GT/18320...h=ta2&quickSearch=1&np_offset=8&from=search#2
     
  9. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

    2,853
    144
    For your new car to go into limp mode (ecu shuts off every 2nd cyl's cop + injector), the eng would have to be overheated. Your tranny is overheated, and the rear end differential is in melt down.

    There must be a way to shut off the OD (gears 8-9-10) ? The only possible fix would be a differential cooler, tranny cooler, hood vents.....and maybe a bigger / thicker eng rad. There is no guarantee even that will work..... to the end of a session....esp in warm wx.

    Unless Ford is willing to install (and pay) for the various 'fixes', you don't have a real..'track pack' capable car. Unless they are talking about a drag strip / autoX car.
     
  10. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    I completely understand what you are saying about that track being hard on cars and bringing out their weakness very quickly. I have had overheating issues with my 2010 Roush as well the past few years there and that has many cooling upgrades on it.

    I hope Ford can get the 10 speed thing worked out, or their are going to be a lot of really disappointed GT500 owners. You can bet a lot of the current GT350 guys are going to be trading for the new GT500, and with 700+ hp compared to my 460 they are going to kill that transmission much more quickly. The 5r55 is probably one of Fords weakest trannys so far, and for me that lasted longer on track than this 10 speed. I would get a couple sessions before my 5r55 would heat up. This 10 speed was hot after just a few laps.

    A purpose built race car is not in my budget, I only do 3 or 4 track days a year, plus I'm paraplegic in a wheelchair, I would not be able to get in and out of a car like you showed without a lot of assistance, and or be able to trailer it. I need a streetcar I can drive to the track just to enjoy HPDE events. I'm not racing or trying to set any speed records, I'm just a guy who enjoys high speed.... :)

    I was really hoping this car with the PP1 pkg. was going to work, and it does very well, but obviously in my case the tranny is the weak link. I had no warnings about the tranny overheating or nothing about rear diff, not sure if that was hot or not, only message I got was Warm on engine temp and that was at 230*
     
  11. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

    Age:
    71
    2,920
    57
    All I've heard concerning GT500 transmission availability is that the new Tremec 7-speed DCT is it. Nothing about any 10Rxx automatic.

    [​IMG]


    Norm
     
  12. jewc75

    jewc75 Cant Stop, Wont Stop

    18,358
    54
  13. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    My misunderstanding, I thought I saw it was going to have the 10 speed.
     
  14. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

    Age:
    71
    2,920
    57
    If the GT500 ever gets a 10R80, my money goes on it being an uprated evolution. Hence "10Rxx".

    Ford's transmission designation scheme typically decodes the '80' part to 800 N-m torque rating (about 590 ft*lbs). I think we might have to see hints of a 10R90 or a 10R100 designation before predicting any conventional-AT GT500.


    Norm
     
    jewc75 likes this.
  15. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    Much of this comes back to my original claim of, if Ford produces the Mustang GT with the 10 speed auto, sells it with a PP1 pkg. (Larger brakes, Radiator, Performance tires), puts the track apps on it to run on a track, hence "track mode" (which also states to only be used on track), and then promotes it in their sales brochures, it should be able to handle more than a few laps on a track. If it can't they are highly misrepresenting their product.

    Roush has also done this in the past as Jack has always pushed taking their cars on track, but are they really built for it?
    And even their saying " Between a Road Car and a Race Car is a Roush Car" is kind of misleading.
     
  16. jewc75

    jewc75 Cant Stop, Wont Stop

    18,358
    54
    They have been misleading since 2013. Track Apps. The Laguna Seca spoiler for the front if installed on the street will void the warranty. So much small print that people never read.

    15+ Ford clearly states that the line lock kit is for use exclusively on racetracks and that racing the car will void the warranty. So why would Ford include technology from the factory that is available to all Mustang GT buyers that allows them to instantly void their warranty? They have done something similar in the past.
     
  17. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

    619
    196
    I am not racing though, it is a HPDE track day, there is a difference as the track day is non-competitive. It's just you driving your car at speed on a track, to my knowledge that does not void the warranty.
    Not that it matters but I also purchased HPDE insurance to cover my car while on the track.
     
  18. fdjizm

    fdjizm Drag Queen

    19,097
    157
    From last I read (and I could be wrong) "racing" is any timed event. "performance testing" is what you want to do with the Mustang on the drag strip whilst not being in a timed competition with others or for a record of some sort.
     
  19. jewc75

    jewc75 Cant Stop, Wont Stop

    18,358
    54
    My point is that although a dealer may help you, Ford may not.
     
  20. Racer47

    Racer47 Doesn't have much to say S197 Team Member

    652
    38
    There are 2 relatively easy things you can do to help engine heat.

    1. Drain the coolant, add distilled water. Stock fill is usually 60% antifreeze. Dilute that until you get about 10%. Typically draining the radiator, refilling, run engine to mix, drain again and fill again, will get you close enough to 10%.

    2. Run the heater when on the track. You will notice some heat but at speed, with the windows open and the vents pointed out the windows as best as is possible, the cabin heat won't be bad.

    These will help for sure but I can't predict by how much. I run 10% every summer and drain and fill with a/f for winter. Yeah its a bit of a pain but its worth it.

    As far as the trans goes, I would call all the tuners and see if they have anything. That trans has its own computer, maybe someone already has a better track tune available. Like this guy


    Its a bit of a long shot but you may get lucky. GM also uses that trans so maybe ck some camaro forums.

    It sucks that the car is not really track ready but its not alone. The vettes overheat. The porsches overheat too.

    The Roush comment can be true. If a road car is a 1 and a race car is a 10. A Roush car could be a 2 and it would make their tagline true. Although most would assume that it would be right in the middle, 5, it doesn't really say that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019