2013 GT STX-ESP autocross build

[Norm Peterson]

Until you do get a proper race seat, you might try a chest strap. Cheap, and reasonably effective.


Don't wear it on the street or at a higher speed track day though.


Norm

 

[lost won]

Good driving!

Sounds like everything on the car is working out well, Howard.

Also seems you're driving very well. Congrats!

Really appreciate you sharing everything in your posts. Lotsa very useful information for me.
I'm still bumping along in FS down here in San Diego.
I went to the EVO Phase 1 school at El Toro in March. Learned a lot. Had Bryan H. for a co-instructor.
He did amazing things with my car, which was pure stock on the stock Pirellis at the time.
Realized the car had a lot of potential I wasn't tapping yet.

Still trying to digest all the new proposals to stock/street.
Looks like I'll probably be unaffected if the new revised proposal passes for next year.
I'll probably just go with FStreet-R if it happens.
With all the new cars coming out soon, (IRS Mustang, Z-28 Camaro, not to mention Corvette);
I'm hesitant to invest in the ESP mods to the Mustang for now.
May just try to find a base '13 GS Vette if they get cheap in the fall.

Meantime, I'll just buy another set of Hoosiers and try to keep learning how to drive.
With -1.5 camber with the camber bolts and careful attention to rotating the tires on the rims, etc.
I can manage about 45 runs per set now.
Seems like they're heat cycling out rather than cording; for me at least..

For FS, are Koni yellows a good place to start for improving over stock?
Except for camber bolts, I haven't modded anything yet.

Best Regards,
John

 

[frank s]

Some from that San Diego Tour stop.

I think I missed the Camaro.

Looking forward to Saturday's test and tune at Qualcomm, although I'm not sure what variables to manipulate, yet. I know which component needs the most work: driver.

 

[chilema]

Sounds like everything on the car is working out well, Howard.

Also seems you're driving very well. Congrats!

Really appreciate you sharing everything in your posts. Lotsa very useful information for me.
I'm still bumping along in FS down here in San Diego.
I went to the EVO Phase 1 school at El Toro in March. Learned a lot. Had Bryan H. for a co-instructor.
He did amazing things with my car, which was pure stock on the stock Pirellis at the time.
Realized the car had a lot of potential I wasn't tapping yet.

Still trying to digest all the new proposals to stock/street.
Looks like I'll probably be unaffected if the new revised proposal passes for next year.
I'll probably just go with FStreet-R if it happens.
With all the new cars coming out soon, (IRS Mustang, Z-28 Camaro, not to mention Corvette);
I'm hesitant to invest in the ESP mods to the Mustang for now.
May just try to find a base '13 GS Vette if they get cheap in the fall.

Meantime, I'll just buy another set of Hoosiers and try to keep learning how to drive.
With -1.5 camber with the camber bolts and careful attention to rotating the tires on the rims, etc.
I can manage about 45 runs per set now.
Seems like they're heat cycling out rather than cording; for me at least..

For FS, are Koni yellows a good place to start for improving over stock?
Except for camber bolts, I haven't modded anything yet.

Best Regards,
John

Hey John,

I would definitely vouch for the Koni Yellows being a great place to start for FS. Unfortunately I never actually ran the stock shocks for autocross so I don't have a direct comparison between the two that I can offer. For street driving I could definitely tell that the Koni's offered much better body control and the ride quality was excellent, so in that regard it's a nice upgrade over stock in itself. I would think that the damping improvement translates over pretty well in autocross situations, especially with the added forces from Hoosiers.

When I ran FS with some used Hoosier A6's and Koni Yellows I was pretty happy with the way the car drove, but you'll probably like them even better with 1.5 camber as opposed to the stock camber I had. If anything, I think you'll be even happier with an aftermarket front bar in addition to the Koni Yellows.

The one thing I didn't like when I ran in FS was how much the body moved in transitions, so having a stiffer front bar to settle the car a bit in transitions won't hurt.

 

[frank s]

Yesterday at the SCCA/SNAX practice and test-and-tune I had the opportunity to evaluate the Koni yellow struts/shocks. With starting pressures of 38 front and 35 rear and all corners set to Full Soft, I experienced very predictable body sway in transitions. and moderate understeer. Three runs to set a standard and learn the course.

Set the rear shocks at Full Firm and it was worth an instant two seconds in a 65-second (for me to that point) course. Quicker set to the rear, noticeably less understeer. One more run with the improved conditions was good for another second.

After a lunch break and sitting out other run groups, set the fronts to Full Firm as well. It seemed as if the front tires were overwhelmed in this condition, and two runs showed the previous three-second improvement had slid back to one. Dialed back the fronts to Half-Firm, with no change in time, but a little less perceived stress on the front tires. Dialed back to Full Soft in front, still Full Firm in back: regained a bit, but still short of the best time on the fifth run, which had the same conditions.

Reduced front tire pressures (hot, they were five PSI higher than the cold-start numbers) to "get more tread on the ground"; a little better feel, but a driving error ruined the time comparison. Reduced rear pressure: good feel all around, but no time improvement.

The event format allowed for one set of five runs before lunch, another set of seven, after. A good opportunity for genuine test-and-tune. Twelve runs made the day worth it to me. I passed on the championship today, since standing around a parking lot in the sun and getting just four minutes of joy doesn't make sense to me any more. Forty years ago it was attractive enough that I would often do a pair of "slaloms" on Sunday, one in Los Angeles and one in San Diego, or vice versa. Not'n e-more. I'm just not as staminous and reflexious as back then.

But the influence of the Koni Streets was still able to make it through. Very much a decent return on investment. Instant two seconds in a minute. Yessir.

 

[lost won]

Konis

Thank you Howard and Frank for sharing your experiences. That was just what I was looking for. Good Job.


John

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

You brought up seats and I will chime in to say that racing seats do make a tremendous difference in autocross and track driving. It reduces driver fatigue and frees up muscles and concentration normally used to hold your legs/torso in place and arm inputs holding onto the wheel. It is worth more to some than others, but almost everyone I've ever talked to that went from stock seats to race seats, their main comment was "I can't believe I didn't do this sooner!"



My favorite seat brand for years has always been Cobra, with Sparco a close second. I've installed seats from these 2 companies in almost every single autocross car I've built, save one (UltraShields in an E30). Vorshlag fnally bit the bullet, did a huge buy-in, and now we are an authorized WD stocking dealer for Cobra.... and Sparco, and OMP, and Momo.

We just did a custom install on Cobra Suzuka ProFit kevlar seats + harness bar + Schroth 6-point harnesses + Cobra sliders into this Time Trial raced, C6 ZR1 last week. And of course we have Cobras in our 2011 GT. I have a lot of tips on "buying brackets" (90% of the options out there doesn't fit), what sliders to use (if any), and what seat models work with what body types and what types of racing. Anyway, if you are thinking about seats... just ask and I'll post more here.



Cheers,

 

[Whiskey11]

So which Cobra seats will fit us folks on larger framed bodies? Which of those seats come close to 25lbs with the brackets and what is the damage to my bank account?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

So which Cobra seats will fit us folks on larger framed bodies? Which of those seats come close to 25lbs with the brackets and what is the damage to my bank account?

I don't know the Cobra line, but I will say that the OMP WRC Wide is retarded comfortable for a fatty...

 

[Roadracer350]

6' 195lb FR500S. What seat will fit that does not cost a gazillian dollers like the Ford Racing seat?

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

So which Cobra seats will fit us folks on larger framed bodies? Which of those seats come close to 25lbs with the brackets and what is the damage to my bank account?

6' 195lb FR500S. What seat will fit that does not cost a gazillian dollers like the Ford Racing seat?

http://www.subesports.com/products/?option=seats - Cobra sizing chart

For the bigger folks (both wide and/or tall) the "GT" fitments usually fit very well.

I am partial to the Suzuka Pro Fit, which is Kevlar, weighs about 19 pounds, and costs $799 for the regular width and $849 for the "GT" width. These have a great torso-holding upper shape and the BEST leg supporting shaped lower. They make for a pretty tall "step over" when entering and exiting the vehicle but these will hold you in place as good or better than anything else, on track or at an autocross.

The Imola is very similar to the Suzuka in many ways but without so much leg support or step-over. It doesn't hold your legs in place nearly as well but it makes for a better dual purpose race/street seat. This one is $729 and $799 for the wider "GT" fit.

Then there are the side brackets (Cobra or another brand), sliders (optional), and "adapter bracket - the part which adapts the side brackets to the mounting holes/studs in the chassis.



We've made several of these, including for the S197 with sliders. Once we get the various Cobra seat models added to our website (the truck shipment arrived last week) we will make a run of these brackets to make life easier. I want to sell a set-up (seat + side brackets + slider + chassis bracket) that are matched together and that give a super short stack-up height. Something that will BOLT IN, and still have anchors for the submarine belts, and mounts for the OEM buckles/3-point belts. We will make this...



Then after you get a racing seat you need racing harnesses, and something to hang the shoulder straps from... so yea, it all kind of adds up. But it DOES help.



edit: There is also a weight savings aspect...

 

[chilema]

LOL all this nice kit is making my wallet itch...I need to prioritize though! Gotta get that rear suspension travel sorted out! I'm sending that pm over to sales department for a quote.

In the mean time...I used my $50 Amazon gift card on this:


http://www.amazon.com/CG-Lock-CG001...e=UTF8&qid=1367088258&sr=1-1&keywords=cg+lock

 

[sholzer]

How do you get your other set of wheels and tires to and from events?

I'm starting to look into getting a hitch and a little utility trailer over summer if decide to keep a dedicated set of autox/race wheels and tires and was wondering if you have a similar setup

 

[boardkat]

curt 11210 hitch
http://www.autoanything.com/towing/77A3874A3773843.aspx

tractor supply 4x6ft trailer
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...l-mesh-floor-trailer-1700-lb-payload-capacity

had a friend weld in the bars, which are secured by locks and removable. confirmed fit for up to 8 wheels/tires 48" wide (295/30R18 A6 on 18x10's is the widest combo i've hauled). total weight when i hauled to nats back in 2010 with my GXP was about 700lbs, and that was fully loaded with 8 wheels/tires, full trailer box, trailer jack, spare trailer tire, etc

all that said, i sold the trailer to a friend since i didn't have room in to the garage to store it anymore, and am having a tire tail made. it'll have about 200lbs capacity, and look something like this:

it's slightly different design/location on the S197 (over the trunk instead of just hanging off the back); trying to get a friend to forward me a pic of the one he had made. stay tuned.

 

[sholzer]

Definitely want to see how the tire tail works out vs having to get a trailer, register it, build it, store it etc

 

[chilema]

All four race wheels and your tools will fit inside the car without taking up the passenger seat. Just fold the rear seats flat, stack two flat on one side, one up right in the space next to the stack, and one in the trunk where the spare goes. Plenty of room left for helmet, jack and tools, and a passenger if you're not using a super tall race tire that stuffs against the roof and keeps the passenger seat from reclining back. I use those tire totes from tirerack to semi-keep the inside clean from those dirty wheels/tires. I'll take a picture of how I load them when I go to the next event but here's one from my old autocross car, same idea though:

Pretty much like this but put the stack on the left and single upright tire on the right if you have a super tall tire like mine (the 27.3" tall 295/40/18 A6, anything shorter you'd have no issues at all)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/34289_10150215831600344_3698717_n.jpg

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Hauling Race Tires to Events?

all that said, i sold the trailer to a friend since i didn't have room in to the garage to store it anymore, and am having a tire tail made. it'll have about 200lbs capacity, and look something like this:

it's slightly different design/location on the S197 (over the trunk instead of just hanging off the back); trying to get a friend to forward me a pic of the one he had made. stay tuned.

That "tiger tire" or "tire tail" nonsense is absolutely terrifying to me, both as an engineer and as a shock supplier. One time I randomly saw one of our early Miata shock testers driving around town with a "tire tail" loaded with 4 tires and wheels, with his rear suspension clearly bottomed out. It was banging over every bump, and it was destroying his shocks. He did this a few too many times and blew out the rear shocks, then denied using a tire tail and acted all mystified when we charged him to rebuild them.

These things are putting the weight of FOUR WHEELS AND TIRES all through a tiny trailer hitch, then levering it WAY back BEHIND THE CAR. Then throw in the load of a fully packed trunk (jack, tools, etc) and together this puts a massive load on the rear shocks/springs, potentially eating up all of the bump travel in your shocks and then... one good bump and you could ruin your expensive racing shocks. For a Mustang you'd be hauling close to 200 pounds of tires and wheels on a hitch mount this way, which is much more than the tongue weight of a fully yet properly loaded 4x4' tire trailer hauling your wheels, tires and tools.

Let's look at the 3 alternatives to a "tire tail"...


Stage 1: Trunk and Back Seat Loading

When we were at the NOLA Motorsports Park last weekend I was amazed at how much stuff Mark Council was able to fit inside his S197.

He had 4 wheels and tires, jack, tools, stool, and all of his gear in the trunk and back seat of his car. It looked a little cramped, and took a while to fit it all in (3D Tetris), but it did fit. If you use tire bags, towels, and careful loading you won't trash your seats with the tires.

Unfortunately, with many cars it ends up being trunk + back seat + front passenger seat, which is very unsafe. This 350Z ran a 275/35/17 tire and there was just no room in the hatch area with the factory "shock tower brace" and no back seat.

I used to get my wheels and tires to races this way back when I first started autocrossing and tracking my cars back in college (the Camaros and Mustangs I was racing in back then could hold 4 tires inside, just barely), but after having 50 pound wheels/tires fly around a bit in some hard stops, it made me a bit nervous. Also, loading tires in the back seat was a royal pain in the back, and didn't work at all once I moved up to fixed back racing seats.



I moved up to the next stage...


Stage 2: Small Tire Trailer

Building or buying a small tire trailer is a much safer alternative, and less stressful when driving to and from events. You free up the back seat and trunk and put all of your "stuff" into and onto the trailer. When properly loaded it can make for nearly no tongue weight on the hitch and will be a safer drive. Backing up is trickier, and storing the trailer can be a hassle if you don't have a garage, but this is generally the 2nd step in your "racing transport" evolution.

Tire Trailer Build Gallery: http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Projects/Tire-Trailer/



I have built a fair number of small tire trailers, for myself and friends. Two of the last ones I built (before going to "Stage 3") are shown in the gallery above. In college we just got the cheapest little 4x4' Harbor Freight trailer, slapped on some plywood, and strapped everything down. Then it evolved into adding a lockable, water proof "trailer box", then we would add some pipe to set the tires on, then I worked up to the lockable tire cages shown above. We even had a 12V car battery and an air compressor on the one above that had two truck tool boxes.


Stage 3: Truck and Trailer

The tire trailer is great for getting your gear to the event, but if you break the car, well... now you have two things to flatbed tow back home. And sometimes (eventually? your track or autocross car gets a little too radical to street drive. For a little more safety and peace of mind, the next step is a truck and trailer...



A steel, painted, 18' long, dual axle trailer, with a "dovetailed" rear (for easier loading) and proper ramps, will run you $1500-2000 used and $2500-3500 new. An open trailer can be towed with a 1/2 or (preferably) 3/4 ton pick-up truck. I started towing an open trailer using this white 3/4 ton Chevy crew cab gasoline V8 truck. As my trailers got larger, so did my tow vehicles.


This is what most racers "daily drive" in.... their race trailer tow vehicles

And while an open trailer is a HUGE step-up in getting your car and gear to and from an autocross or track event, it still leaves the car and your gear "open" to the elements... rain, bugs, and road grit. You can fit a water proof tool box to the trailer and/or truck, and even put a bed cover (like on my white truck above) or camper box on the truck to keep your gear out of the rain and such. But eventually you will have more "stuff" you take to races than you can fit in a tool box or under a bed cover. And maybe your race car loses the windows at some point. The next step is an enclosed trailer...



Most people start with a 20-24' enclosed "tag" (bumper pull) trailer, but I jumped in and got a 38' gooseneck style trailer. And I've upgraded that once already. These pretty much move you into a 1 ton Dual Rear Wheel (dually) turbo diesel truck to tow with, too. And there are always guys at track events with "stackers" pulled by RVs or Toterhomes, Semi-tractor rigs pulled full 53' trailers with integral lift gates, etc. So yea... this stuff can escalate.

edit: sorry for all of the grammar and spelling edits. I wrote this while on hold with the IRS for an hour (they owed us money)

 

[boardkat]

For a Mustang you'd be hauling close to 200 pounds of tires and wheels on a hitch mount this way, which is much more than the tongue weight of a fully yet properly loaded 4x4' tire trailer hauling your wheels, tires and tools.

who said i was putting all 4 wheels/tires on it?

with two of my lightweight 19x9's and A6's mounted, the tongue weight is under 100lbs, right about where it was when i was hauling my 4x6 fully loaded. i don't consider this absolutely terrifying

not all of us have the luxury of garage space, or even backseat space, let alone the excess cash to rock a tow rig setup! with this solution, i'm able to get my other two wheels and all my gear into the trunk, while hauling my wife, infant son and dog in the interior

edit: allow me to clarify, i'm only doing this for short-hauls to local/regional events. i have the luxury of friends with lots of space to haul my stuff on the out-of-state/cross-country stuff. you won't see me showing up in lincoln with this thing, lol.

 

[modernbeat]

Boardkat, the terrifying part is what is happening to your suspension. The accelerated wear caused by tire-tails is real. We've seen it. It's fine to hang a bike on the back of an SUV with plenty of suspension movement, but extending that lever arm enough for mounted tires, and then putting it on a sports car (we deal with a LOT more cars than just Mustangs) with limited suspension travel is a bad idea.

From our experience we urge you to use a 4x4 trailer instead. They can be stored on end in a corner of the garage or backyard, or on a patio if you live in an apartment.

Terry's transition through gear toting reminds me of this quote I've had floating around in my journal for more than a decade:

Here's another observation about racing and its costs...

People who LIKE cars drive all sorts of cool cars - sports cars, muscle cars, luxury cars, off-road trucks, vintage cars. The real enthusiasts do car related activities - cruise nights, show-n-shines, club runs through the mountains, off-road driving, touring drives, road trips, track days, etc.

People who REALLY LIKE cars drive cool cars and do car-related competitions with them - autocrosses, Solo I track events, time/speed/distance rallies, run-what-you-brung night at the drag strip, car shows with concours d'elegance, etc.

But people who LOVE cars don't drive cool cars - they drive trucks. They OWN cool cars, but the cool cars are race cars that live in a shop and ride to the track in an enclosed trailer. The truck's job is to serve the race car. The truck is often kind of junky, but as long as it runs, it lets the owner spend money on the only important kind of car - the race car.

My vintage racing friend used to love muscle cars. Since he started racing, he has begun to view street cars as a waste of perfectly good money that could've been spent on racing. His philosophy about nice street cars is as follows: "Is it a race car? Will it at least tow a race car to the race track? Does it have anything at all to do with racing? No? Then f--- it."
...

 

[boardkat]

Boardkat, the terrifying part is what is happening to your suspension. The accelerated wear caused by tire-tails is real. We've seen it. It's fine to hang a bike on the back of an SUV with plenty of suspension movement, but extending that lever arm enough for mounted tires, and then putting it on a sports car (we deal with a LOT more cars than just Mustangs) with limited suspension travel is a bad idea.

nothing is happening to my suspension - i don't even have the tail yet
that said, the friend who inspired me to pursue this solution has been running the same setup for years, and is nowhere near bottoming out his rear in a Shelby GT sitting even lower. i'll take a pic the next time it's fully loaded. not that it matters, i'm the devil for even mentioning it

From our experience we urge you to use a 4x4 trailer instead. They can be stored on end in a corner of the garage or backyard, or on a patio if you live in an apartment.

i don't have that luxury any more, unfortunately, living in a three level townhome with no outdoor storage space. seriously, i should take a pic of my "garage" since we had to wall in a portion of it over the winter to make a home office for me due to losing a room to the baby!

edit: i was planning on having lee re-valve my rears in lincoln anyway. i'll be sure to get his opinion on how they look when he tears them down, and eat crow if you're right. but ultimately, rear shocks would be just another wear item to add to my semi-annual list that already includes the diff clutchpack, strut bolts, RSB bushings, etc etc.