86's VMP 1.9/Forged Build

[eighty6gt]

Random photo dump:

Car, you can see the custom exchanger brackets:

Moved this up as it was too low:

Brackets, last parts to go on:

 

[eighty6gt]

Finished tuning for now, car does pull timing and add fuel if you're driving around beating on it when it's humid. Could also be the cat protection, but it's a safe tune. I'll lean on it more when I build the engine. Friend of mine ran alcohol through his TVS with great results, keep thinking of that to cool the case and intake charge. It does wipe out the unsealed rear bearings in the blower, with time...

The GT500 KR mufflers might come off - little too much glasspack snap on part throttle/boost around 3000+. Sounds ok just revving, sounds good at light throttle, but under heavy load ... eh. Kind of miss the sleeper factor of the GTB's. I bet the odd/bad qualities of the cat back would be mitigated by getting rid of the cats, putting in an H crossover like Jim has been telling me to do, and adding a couple of resonators ahead of the axle!

 

[Pentalab]

Finished tuning for now, car does pull timing and add fuel if you're driving around beating on it when it's humid. Could also be the cat protection, but it's a safe tune. I'll lean on it more when I build the engine. Friend of mine ran alcohol through his TVS with great results, keep thinking of that to cool the case and intake charge. It does wipe out the unsealed rear bearings in the blower, with time...

The GT500 KR mufflers might come off - little too much glasspack snap on part throttle/boost around 3000+. Sounds ok just revving, sounds good at light throttle, but under heavy load ... eh. Kind of miss the sleeper factor of the GTB's. I bet the odd/bad qualities of the cat back would be mitigated by getting rid of the cats, putting in an H crossover like Jim has been telling me to do, and adding a couple of resonators ahead of the axle!

I thought for sure u had installed lt's a while back. So entire exhaust is oem....except for KR mufflers ? What is ur outside temp + humidity these days ?

Ceramic LT's, catted H ( hi-flow cats) would be the ideal ticket. That's if you require cats...other wise an un catted H would be superb.

One thing I did notice last night is when tank is at a 1/4..or slightly less, the fuel temps are a lot higher...vs a full tank. Filled tank, and fuel temps dropped a bunch. Try taking some readings on a hot day, sitting at red lights, with 1/4 tank, it's a real eye opener.

 

[eighty6gt]

I am keeping the stock manifolds, the performance gains for $1000 worth of longtubes aren't there. I think the manifolds probably don't leak much heat, either. The cats get hot enough to burn green grass when you pull off after a WOT run. $200 or so for a pypes stainless off road pipe, another $60 to get a stainless bung installed for my wideband, $100 for a pair of resonators... again, all next year. I'm in savings mode, paying off my wedding, house, property tax, and going on vacation in September.

I usually run around with 1/2 tank or more, better traction, and it even says in the roush blower install instructions not to drive around under 1/4 tank or so.

 

[Pentalab]

I am keeping the stock manifolds, the performance gains for $1000 worth of longtubes aren't there. I think the manifolds probably don't leak much heat, either. The cats get hot enough to burn green grass when you pull off after a WOT run. $200 or so for a pypes stainless off road pipe, another $60 to get a stainless bung installed for my wideband, $100 for a pair of resonators... again, all next year. I'm in savings mode, paying off my wedding, house, property tax, and going on vacation in September.

I usually run around with 1/2 tank or more, better traction, and it even says in the roush blower install instructions not to drive around under 1/4 tank or so.

Put your fingers on the oem exhaust manifold and see how hot it actually gets. A safer method is to use a Fluke mini 62 IR point + shoot thermometer. If you only do 1 thing.... get rid of that damned disc in the oem H section. A 2.5" disc with a .375" hole dead center is looney tunes. Cut it out, or use a 2 3/8" green lee punch + impact wrench.

The ceramic LT's and catted H indeed made a huge difference in tq, it's the one mod that actually works, and does something. In reality, I think the majority of gains was from eliminating the oem disc in the oem H. All after market H sections have no disc. An X would work too, but too raspy sounding for my tastes.

Burning green grass with oem cats...lol. The oem cats hit 1850 F on my aeroforce gauges...at WOT. Don't park in a wheat field or tall dry grass.

 

[eighty6gt]

I just don't want to spend the money! Even the H is outside of what I have budgeted - things are really thin these days for a while. Fixing up the house.

Boost is now consistently 8-8.5 psi after running for a while. Weird. I think I'll throw on my new belt and keep the existing one as the spare - it's got 3+ years on it.

 

[Pentalab]

I just don't want to spend the money! Even the H is outside of what I have budgeted - things are really thin these days for a while. Fixing up the house.

Boost is now consistently 8-8.5 psi after running for a while. Weird. I think I'll throw on my new belt and keep the existing one as the spare - it's got 3+ years on it.

Figure out an 'easy' way of removing the restriction from the oem internal disc inside the oem H.
2.5" solid disc + 3/8" hole dead center = fubar engineering. The 3/8" hole won't allow for proper scavenging effect.

 

[eighty6gt]

So... 14 grand to build the engine alone (~7000*2). It's no mystery how this is a rare occurrence up here. I already have a few parts that aren't on the list.

 

[lito]

Why x2?

 

[eighty6gt]

Lito, you build engines and cars - but you are really good at it, maybe you don't do the x2. Where I'm from everything costs double your estimate because you haven't added in 10% taxes, shipping, duty, shop supplies, fluids, etc...

I sent a PM to Bruce proposing I take out my stock pistons and crank, take them to the machine shop with my boss rods for balancing, get some fresh rod bearings (if required,) and reassemble the engine with gaskets and rings from rock auto and front and rear main seals, head gaskets, and main bolts from Ford. I would want new wire locks as well. Then take 1/2" off of the blower pulley, go to 94 octane (15%+ ethanol) and see what happens.

 

[Pentalab]

Lito, you build engines and cars - but you are really good at it, maybe you don't do the x2. Where I'm from everything costs double your estimate because you haven't added in 10% taxes, shipping, duty, shop supplies, fluids, etc...

I sent a PM to Bruce proposing I take out my stock pistons and crank, take them to the machine shop with my boss rods for balancing, get some fresh rod bearings (if required,) and reassemble the engine with gaskets and rings from rock auto and front and rear main seals, head gaskets, and main bolts from Ford. I would want new wire locks as well. Then take 1/2" off of the blower pulley, go to 94 octane (15%+ ethanol) and see what happens.

Are the boss rods the same length as oem 4.6l rods ? Do u end up with same CR /displacement ? That may well be a cost effective approach.
The oem 4.6l crank is plenty strong enough. The oem pistons are probably just fine, provided no detonation. It's the damned oem rods that are pretzel sticks, and the weak point.

The oem block is built like a tank..provided you don't window it.
Are you going to use the oil pump + water pump from the GT-500 ?
What else needs to be done to the eng to beef it up a bit ? Can the oem cams be reused ?

500 rwhp would be more than plenty for my application...... but I would not chance it with oem rods, they are on borrowed time. Actually even that scenario won't work, forgot abt the damned 5r55 pos auto tranny.

 

[lito]

Lito, you build engines and cars - but you are really good at it, maybe you don't do the x2. Where I'm from everything costs double your estimate because you haven't added in 10% taxes, shipping, duty, shop supplies, fluids, etc...

I sent a PM to Bruce proposing I take out my stock pistons and crank, take them to the machine shop with my boss rods for balancing, get some fresh rod bearings (if required,) and reassemble the engine with gaskets and rings from rock auto and front and rear main seals, head gaskets, and main bolts from Ford. I would want new wire locks as well. Then take 1/2" off of the blower pulley, go to 94 octane (15%+ ethanol) and see what happens.

Oh, I understand. We are under similar circumstances.

That sounds like a plan, that should work great.

Are the boss rods the same length as oem 4.6l rods ? Do u end up with same CR /displacement ? That may well be a cost effective approach.
The oem 4.6l crank is plenty strong enough. The oem pistons are probably just fine, provided no detonation. It's the damned oem rods that are pretzel sticks, and the weak point.

The oem block is built like a tank..provided you don't window it.
Are you going to use the oil pump + water pump from the GT-500 ?
What else needs to be done to the eng to beef it up a bit ? Can the oem cams be reused ?

500 rwhp would be more than plenty for my application...... but I would not chance it with oem rods, they are on borrowed time. Actually even that scenario won't work, forgot abt the damned 5r55 pos auto tranny.

Coyote use the same 4.6 rod sizing specs.

 

[eighty6gt]

Stock oil and water pump, Jim. All stock clearances. Ideally I'd have a stiffer back plate on the pump to help keep the pressure up when winding the engine out, but it shouldn't see load over 6000 rpm very often.

 

[eighty6gt]

There are threads about this all over, but maybe a few people could weigh in since I can basically go wherever I want at this point. I want to add power, with the least amount of boost possible to help cripple along my intercooling system as it is. 2013 GT500 pump, large single pass Roush HE, probably a 2013 GT500 fan, fencing, etc.. with the M90 lower intake.

Currently through stock cats I'm seeing anywhere from 7.5 to low 9's for PSI depending on weather. 82mm pulley on the 1.9. I don't know where Justin got his dyno graphs from, but I think that was sqwerl's stock engine with no cats, at just under 8 psi he was nearly 450 at the wheels on 93. I'm going to assume I'm making around there, 430 or so right now on 91. Currently my IAT's are well in hand 90% of the time, and I can accept the car running a bit slower on a 100F day, of which I get 3 a year.

The plan is to remove the cats and possibly add some blower cams, this might cause a gross drop in the boost by 1-1.5 psi. Has anyone got experience ditching catalysts and/or adding cams such as the comp 127205 (small cams) and the effects on boost on an otherwise stock engine? I've seen it mentioned in many threads but it's always in the midst of a bunch of other stuff happening, pulley changes, etc...

My concerns with camshafts:

- I could need heavier springs. The failure rate of cam drives with heavier springs seems fairly significant.
- I would need phaser limiters. Lito is trying to get me to use limiters even with my stock camshaft when I build the engine. This isn't a bad idea, so I've built the cost into what I'm doing.
- I would need retainers, locks.

If I were to do 127205's I could conceivably leave the heads alone, but I don't want to do it and see a statistically insignificant difference in horsepower gain and boost loss. I might be better off spending my money elsewhere, especially if I see a false increase in IAT's. I've finally been able to register at the comp forums, seems like they have a knowledgeable moderator in there that isn't just answering yes to every question about buying a comp part.

I've addressed my planned boost elsewhere but I'll repeat it here, 69mm pulley, Brian says that's good for 11 PSI. I've always seen slightly higher numbers than he had, for one reason or another, so we'll say 11-12.

 

[skwerl]

What I was finding was an increase in IAT's of 5-8 degrees for every pound of boost. Not sure if I would bother messing with cams on the stock block since you have all the power it can handle only a pulley swap away. Save the cams for your forged build and ported heads. I'd explore your options on cooling IAT's and reducing back pressure in order to increase power.

If you don't have annual inspections then ditch the cats. Then you can spend your time and money finding an exhaust that sounds good without waking up the dead. I settled on Borla Touring and added some resonators inline after the H pipe.

 

[eighty6gt]

Ah I thought it went without saying, I'm already at the limits of the stock rods now so this pulley change/exhaust/cams/what have you will be with the Boss 302 rods in the motor.

No inspections, the plan is to install stainless dynomax resonators ahead of the rear axle. I have GT500 KR mufflers, its sounds pretty good right now, hopefully stays the same or gets quieter with no cats and added resonators. Boost seems to make it very loud. More boost = more racket. We'll see.

Cooling IAT's is going to be elusive, I watched your build and know what's in that intake. Didn't seem like you could make much progress. I think running 94 octane E10 is going to be my hole card.

 

[skwerl]

No cats will make it much louder and the tone completely different. Sorry.

 

[eighty6gt]

Heh, no need to apologize. I guess I'll try it out and if I hate it can reinstall the stock H. Only $275 for an off road pipe here, plus labor to install a wb bung. Thanks for the information, btw. I don't know anyone else on here who has this setup.

 

[skwerl]

My final setup was JBL off road headers (I believe), Vibrant bottle style resonators mounted inline, and the Borla Touring mufflers. Here's the resonators I had.
Amazon.com: Vibrant 1792 Bottle Style Resonator: Automotive@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41kUuJVVI9L.@@AMEPARAM@@41kUuJVVI9L

I bought those in February and totaled the car in April. Unfortunately I bent them up pretty good trying to remove them and ended up scrapping them.

 

[BruceH]

There are threads about this all over, but maybe a few people could weigh in since I can basically go wherever I want at this point. I want to add power, with the least amount of boost possible to help cripple along my intercooling system as it is. 2013 GT500 pump, large single pass Roush HE, probably a 2013 GT500 fan, fencing, etc.. with the M90 lower intake.

Currently through stock cats I'm seeing anywhere from 7.5 to low 9's for PSI depending on weather. 82mm pulley on the 1.9. I don't know where Justin got his dyno graphs from, but I think that was sqwerl's stock engine with no cats, at just under 8 psi he was nearly 450 at the wheels on 93. I'm going to assume I'm making around there, 430 or so right now on 91. Currently my IAT's are well in hand 90% of the time, and I can accept the car running a bit slower on a 100F day, of which I get 3 a year.

The plan is to remove the cats and possibly add some blower cams, this might cause a gross drop in the boost by 1-1.5 psi. Has anyone got experience ditching catalysts and/or adding cams such as the comp 127205 (small cams) and the effects on boost on an otherwise stock engine? I've seen it mentioned in many threads but it's always in the midst of a bunch of other stuff happening, pulley changes, etc...

My concerns with camshafts:

- I could need heavier springs. The failure rate of cam drives with heavier springs seems fairly significant.
- I would need phaser limiters. Lito is trying to get me to use limiters even with my stock camshaft when I build the engine. This isn't a bad idea, so I've built the cost into what I'm doing.
- I would need retainers, locks.

If I were to do 127205's I could conceivably leave the heads alone, but I don't want to do it and see a statistically insignificant difference in horsepower gain and boost loss. I might be better off spending my money elsewhere, especially if I see a false increase in IAT's. I've finally been able to register at the comp forums, seems like they have a knowledgeable moderator in there that isn't just answering yes to every question about buying a comp part.

I've addressed my planned boost elsewhere but I'll repeat it here, 69mm pulley, Brian says that's good for 11 PSI. I've always seen slightly higher numbers than he had, for one reason or another, so we'll say 11-12.

FWIW stiffer springs are a good idea with boost no matter what cam you are running. Comp 26113 springs work with the phasers.