BBK Bias Issues

Grip

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I recall several people complaining of ABS function issues after upgrading their front brakes (likely caused by the shift of the mechanical advantage balance). GT owners reported solving this problem via replacement of the ABS module with a GT 500 unit. What I'm wondering is, has anyone experimented with using a more aggressive pad on the REAR to balance out mechanical advantage?

My theory is that the ABS may be calibrated to the stock brake bias, a bias that changes to favor the front brakes further as a big brake kit is added. Thusly, shifting some of that bias back to the rear should solve the problem.

Potential proof of concept comes from an experience I had at Buttonwillow...

Front: Hawk Blue; Rear: Street Pads= Results: Inconsistent ABS activation and lockup.

Front: Hawk Blue; Rear: Hawk HP+= Results: More consistant ABS activation, diminished lockup.

While I know people have had luck with having a more aggressive compound up front...has anyone ventured to try the opposite?
 

SoundGuyDave

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I think you're pretty much on the right path... With stock 13" front brakes, I've (successfully) run XP10 F, XP 8 R, XP12/XP10, DTC60/HT10. Once I upgraded the fronts to the Brembo 14" setup, I just upped the rear compound, running DTC60 on all four corners, and it balances out great, with (4.6L)ABS activation right at the 1.0G braking threshold.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Nope, never tried it, and with reason. First off, I run two different tire packages, all in 275/35-18. Dry, they're Hoosier R6, and wet/street/"screwing around", I run Dunlop Direzza Star Spec.

To my mind, it's all about weight transfer, load, and torque. I should have mentioned (kinda forgot, it was a while ago!) that I also ran HP+/HP+, and it was pretty miserable. Think of it this way: When you get on the whoa-pedal, quickly and smoothly like you're supposed to, a few things happen, all at the same time. First, the rotors (front and rear) start to decelerate, and due to good-old-Newton, we know that the chassis wants to continue, but can't, seeing as it's bolted to the rotors that are decelerating (through the tire contact patch, of course). This alters the loading on the front and rear pairs of tires, increasing the load (and thus available grip--to a point) in front, and decreasing the load (and thus available grip) in the rear. If you ran completely identical brake packages (rotor diameter, MC piston area, caliper piston area) front and rear, you would pretty obviously get to the point where the rear tires would simply lock up, while the fronts were still working beautifully, decelerating the car. If you have ABS, this would be the threshold point where the system kicked in, and would start pumping the brakes for you. Net result: The ABS is in too soon, thus limiting your total braking capability. The OE brake package alters the relationship of MC piston surface area, caliper surface area, and rotor diameter, reducing the amount of braking delivered by the rear brakes to something approximating the same percentage of bias split as the tires are seeing load. I'm pretty sure that they picked some nominal value, such as 70% of maximum braking pressure for the bias calculation, assuming that that would be an "aggressive street driving" profile. I think they rely on the ABS to work out the fine details under a panic-stop condition.

Now, we have a small problem transitioning this over to track-style driving. Assuming a "square" pad compound setup is ideal for the aforementioned 70% braking effort, which would also correspond to roughly 70% of the max load transfer, things change just a bit when you get one of us maniacs behind the wheel. I'm pretty sure they didn't develop the brake bias ratio with a "Drag race! GO! GO! GO! Crap, corner coming, stand the car on it's nose, oops, too late on the brake, gotta turn in under braking, there goes the rear end, quick, catch it with the gas, okay, now power! power! power!" mentality in mind. Since we're actually trying to GET to that 100% maximum possible braking, with corresponding load transfer, that means the rear tires will be even lighter than the system is "programmed" for, and we start limiting based on the rears locking up again. Thus, we track rats run differing compounds (1 "notch" down in the rear) to help "reprogram" the baseline bias a little further forward.

Now, in my case, I found a 1-compound split (XP8/10/12 or HT10/DTC60/DTC70) was about perfect with the stock brake hardware and stock ABS software. I regularly ran right at 1.0G under braking, but never saw over 1.08, as the car was deep into ABS at that point. When I changed up to the Brembo calipers and 14" rotors up front, that altered the equation drastically. With the extra inch of diameter (plus the considerably larger swept area under the pad), I again had bias issues, but this time with not enough rear brake, and I could again trigger ABS, but this time at around 0.92, when the fronts started to lock up with the greater brake torque. I went with the DTC-60 compound on all four corners, and suddenly, I had my braking mojo back. I can't honestly say that I could feel the difference between split and square compound setups in terms of actual front/rear bias, but I did notice a difference, in that the split setup just felt "off," like the car wasn't decelerating like it should. The square setup just feels great. Now, if Hawk would produce our rear brake plates with DTC-70 compound, I would go right to 70/70, and really enjoy the additional initial bite.

Does any of that make sense? I know it's all anecdotal, excepting the traqmate decel data, but I would be curious what you're feeling that makes you think that your rears aren't working hard enough. At least with my braking style (late/hard), the compound split is good with the stock brake hardware, but needs to go one compound more aggressive in the rear to compensate for the extra torque the 14" setup generates.
 

DUFUS

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Good info, thanks SGD. I recently upgraded from std 2011 GT brakes to the Bimbo 14". I haven't done any track days with the new setup yet, but was going to start with DTC60 or ST43 up front, and HT10 for rear (mainly because I have a couple of sets of HT10's with plenty of life left). I doubt with my (lack of) experience level I'll be able to discern a difference in how the rear is reacting, but I'll keep this in mind.
 

Chris B.

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In experimenting whit different brake pads with the stock non Brembo calipers, I noticed the one compound split worked well. Using XP12 up front and XP-10's int he rear seemed a little too touchy in the rain for me. XP10's up front and XP8's int he read seemed to modulate better on wet tracks.

I recently upgraded from std 2011 GT brakes to the Bimbo 14".

Does the bimbo have aftermarket enhancements to her chest or is she 100% stock? I assume she is blonde?
 

jymontoya

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Good info, thanks SGD. I recently upgraded from std 2011 GT brakes to the Bimbo 14". I haven't done any track days with the new setup yet, but was going to start with DTC60 or ST43 up front, and HT10 for rear (mainly because I have a couple of sets of HT10's with plenty of life left). I doubt with my (lack of) experience level I'll be able to discern a difference in how the rear is reacting, but I'll keep this in mind.


I agree with SGD. Running the same compound front and rear seems to work best on these cars with the Brembos. I also felt the same with my Cobra R Brembos on my '97 Cobra, despite what Carbotech and others would have you believe.


If you want to try the ST43's, let me know. I've got a great source for them at only ~$100 for the front Brembo set!!
 

DUFUS

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If you want to try the ST43's, let me know. I've got a great source for them at only ~$100 for the front Brembo set!!

Oh man.. I already bought a set, and for much more than that. :angry1:
I'll see how I like 'em, remember the name Inigo Montoya, and prepare to buy. Errr.... jymontoya that is.
 

SoundGuyDave

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If you want to try the ST43's, let me know. I've got a great source for them at only ~$100 for the front Brembo set!!

I've been hearing a lot about the ST43s, that they have good bite, excellent release, and wear forever... In terms of heat range and initial bite, what Hawk compound would you compare them to? Also, do they have ST43s available for the S197 rear?
 

jymontoya

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I've been hearing a lot about the ST43s, that they have good bite, excellent release, and wear forever... In terms of heat range and initial bite, what Hawk compound would you compare them to? Also, do they have ST43s available for the S197 rear?

Not a Hawk fan here, but some Vette guys were using the dtc70s and Carbotech xp12's before switching to the st43's. Getting 3x the life than the xp12's. They also have a slightly more aggressive st41, I have a friend who loves them on his 03 Mach1.

Porterfield has them in a custom cut for the S197 rear. ~$175 with NASA membership. About 1 week turn around.

I talked to Raybestos, and until there is more demand, they aren't making them from the factory.
 
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