Barbaro, I see a lot of superlatives, hyperboles, and weasel words in your posts, but very little sound engineering explanation as to why, exactly, the torque arm is the Second-Coming of Christ.
Weasel words? Please define weasel words. Also define "sound engineering explanation" because I don't know what you mean by that. Also who is the judge of a "sound" engineering explanation? First, I am not an engineer and I don't need to be a chicken to tell you what an egg is. Do your own research. Better yet, drive a car that is so equipped. I have. And apparantly you have not, because if you did you would not make such an ignorant and incorrect statement.
I have given detailed explanations of the difference in handling between the car before and after. In fact, I could not be more detailed in my subjective evaluation. If you have no faith in my subjective evaluation so be it. But given the fact that I have modified several suspensions and have had a chance to drive these cars in all sorts of different permutations, I believe and assert that my subjective evaluation is worthwhile. In fact, more worthwhile than yours.The problem with your criticism is that it is not a legitimate criticism of my review it is a criticism of me. In short, I lack the qualifications in your not so humble opinion to have an opinion. It is entirely okay if you do not believe me. But your opinion is not more informed or better than mine. Of that I am 100% sure.
Please, please, please start writing this up in terms of pitch motion. Continuing to insist that the torque arm affects front suspension behavior - which those terms specifically apply to - makes it really difficult to accept the rest of what you want us all to apparently "take on faith".
Occurrence of your near-religious "ah-ha" moment aside, there still has to be technical reasoning behind it that will pass a halfway diligent engineering sanity check. I can assure you that understanding the theories behind this is not time wasted. If it was, there would be no basis for further fine-tuning, which even you should realize is an unrealistic expectation.
Understand that I am not trying to claim that any old slapped-together 3-link arrangement is necessarily better than a well thought out TA. With either setup, the details matter. No matter who or how many folks appreciate your analogy.
I really hope that the new participant here isn't simply a shill for moral support. You don't have to convince me that a TA can be a good solution. But you can't ever get me to accept that it's the best possible solution or even only a better one just on faith alone.
Norm
I am using plain language to describe the fact that nosedive is reduced on deceleration or braking. And also that front end pitch is reduced on acceleration. That is a fact. You can describe it any way you want, but that fact remains true. And your opinion is not as informed as mine despite your engineering degree or degrees becasue you have not had any personal experience with what I am talking about. This is old tech and has been proven on The racetrack and on the street. And there is plenty of info on it for those who care to look. As to new participants being shills, what evidence do you have to support such a libelous claim? is it only that he is in agreement with me and not with you?
Sky, seriously, you're not going to get a sound explanation from him. This is a classic example of rationalization - evidence comes after the belief.
He's had an experience, and he's convinced he's found Jesus. That's pretty much the end of the story, but since rational folks have asked him, the rest is an attempt to make that belief sound like it has reason behind it. We've asked over and over and we get the same thing, really imprecise analogies, very loose correlations, and outright denials that any alternative accounts (or approaches) might hold merit.
I mean, I thought it was a joke when "evidence" was produced that "that guy over there ran a corner I couldn't and my buddy ran off track trying to do the same - must have been the torque arm!" This is the kind of schlock we're getting. Total garbage. No alternatives have been considered. Like, I dunno, that guy is a better driver, maybe? The other driver knows a thing or two about controlling balance through a corner? Or maybe his car has different equipment? Like better tires? Or maybe he has the same tires, but his have fewer heat cycles on them? He's running different pressures/split pressures? Or maybe he has exactly the same gear, but he's just dialed in his combo better than others (alignment, shock settings, hard mounting points/preloads, weight distribution)? Or maybe he's just more comfortable with his set up and can anticipate his car's behavior better? Nothing.
All we get is the classic: wow, that's fast, it must be XYZ that is causing it. And when he's been given such alternatives to consider, he just ignores them - flat out! "Yeah, I've considered all that, but I'm right." There's no attempt to think here, it's just proselytizing. The Jesus analogy is right on target.
There's no real understanding of what's going on, and yet we're asking the blind to lead us - many of whom are not so blind. Here's the one and only really good piece of advice we've been given so far: "drive one for yourself." For those of us who know how to do careful analysis and pursue the questions we may have, this is about our only hope to really understand the benefits of the TA for our cars.
WTF are you talking about? I have considered all alternative explanations thoroughly. Read my posts carefully, becasue you have mischaracterized them and I am going to assume that you mischaracterization is a result of a lack of reading comprehension rather than some bad intent. I started out a skeptic as I always do. I have given detailed explanations of subjective experience and have invited all who care to take the time to drive such an equipped car. To drive my car in fact. I have also provided links for more information. How better would you like me to define my subjective experiences when it comes to ride quality for instance, or cornering precision.
If you want data then go somewhere else for that info I cannot give it to you. I cannot for instance tell you what the difference is on a grip pad or what the differences in lap times or any other objective data. But the difference really between you and me is that I have driven these vehicles equipped with stock UCA (several), Aftermarket UCA's (several) and with a a Cortex rear grip package. Have you? The answer is no you have not. So all you can do is opine about something which you do not have any knowledge about whether it be subjective or objective. Drive a car equipped as I have stated and then you and everyone else will shut your collective mouths and be embarrassed that you thought the earth was flat.
Also, do you have any objective data that contradicts what I have said? The difference is personal experience. That does not mean that I know everything or that I am a great driver or that Ferrari is going to hire me to design their next Formula One Car. I am very humble as to that, but your criticism is way out of line and reflects your ignorance of the topic. There is no substitute for experience. I have it. You do not. I invite you to get it. So when you are not freezing your ass off in Chicago, come to sunny Southern California and I will let you drive my car back to back with a car that does not have a torque arm rear grip package. That way we can have this discussion on more equal footing, because right now I am in a butt kicking contest with a one legged man. Believe it or not, I am just trying to help people out here. It is not like I make any money off of this. That is why even though you have made a blatantly personal criticism of me, (Essentially that I am a dumbshit incapable of supporting my opinion) I am still willing to let you drive my car which incidentally will be in a special edition of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords on June 18th.
Barbaro, I think it's fair to say it's a tough crowd here. It's a fair crowd. The intimidation level for throwing the bullshit card is not high. I think everybody here would really like some solid proof to your claim as everybody here loves to mod their car and have a great driving experience. But this is truly just a "numbers" game. AS%, RC heigth, Camber, Wheel rates....they are all numbers. Mathmatically proven. Even if you don't chalkline your car and do all that jazz (I don't) you can still make a relevant point by changing one thing, driving consistent and having a stop watch. That takes all the "engineer" stuff out of the equation and moves straight to results. Then you might have to determine exactly what happened with the changes through all that "engineering talk", but those things can get worked through with help if there was enough drive to do it.
Not being a dick, though I usually am, but that's the skinny.
I appreciate what you are saying, but understand that I did not put this on my car so I could wax poetic about it on the internet and back everything up with objective data. I truly did not expect the massive improvement because nothing else I have ever done has been so transformative. And with respect to many of the undeniably important subjective advantages brought about by the torque arm /Watts Link, it is the type of thing in which objective data is not really capable of assessing. Things like ride quality or driver confidence or steering feel. I suppose these things could be broken down mathematically by a multimillion dollar suspension tester such as is used by NASCAR, but I obviously do not have that capability. Nevertheless I knew what i was getting into when I posted this stuff because I know All
truth passes through
three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Right now I am in the ridiculed violently opposed stage. I would back off if there was any doubt in my mind, but there simply isn't any.
. So for instance when I used to take a turn at 55, the rear end would step out and then the Torsen would engage and straighten me out. Now if I take the same turn at 65, the rear end does not step out. After the Torque arm I take the turn at 70 and the rear end will step out only a little bit and thus the Torsen engages momentarily. A gutsier driver would make better use of it than me I am sure. Between the torque arm, watts link and the Torsen I have a lot of rear end control and I have not yet explored the limit of that because at this point to be honest I am afraid to unless I am at the track and have a lot of road to work with. I can still break the rear end lose on slow corners with a little throttle and then I will feel it but that is playtime, not performance driving.
