First NASA HPDE event next week end

[Morris]

So I signed up for the HPDE1 group next Sat and Sun. at Infinion in Sonoma. This will be my first time out on a big track (lots of laps on forza though). The group I'm in will have an instructor in the car with me, so hopefully he will keep me from doing any thing stupid.

I have a couple questions for those that have driven there S197 on the track.

First, traction controll....on or off? I wouldn't even ask this and just leave it on if it but when I'm on twisty roads the traction control is extremely intrusive. It comes on and cuts the power before my wheels even spin/slide or make any noise at all. Maybe it's because I'm running 285's all around and the car hooks really well around corners IDK.

Also what do you guys recommend for the shocks/struts settings? I have steeda sport springs in the front and bmrs in the rear with Koni yellows. I have never had a need to take them off full soft on the street but I'm guessing on the track I may want to bump them up some.

The thing I'm most worried about is sliding around in my seats. I removed the stock seats and replaced them with Corbeau vx2000 seats. These are good for my 100 mile commute each day but I doubt I'm gonna like them on the track as they don't hold me in very well even on the street. I suspect I will want to buy another seat for track days. The seat I'm looking at is the OMP WRC

Seems to fit me well, any one tried this one?

Any way I just thought I would post up and see if there were any suggestions for my first real track day. Any one else going?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

TC OFF!!! The first stage of the TC (at least on the 05-10 cars) is to apply rear brake, and it WILL burn the pads off the car in less than a day. It also won't help you with anything but GROSS excess throttle on track-out, and that's easier to control with the right foot.

Shocks/struts: Once you get to the track, I would spin them up to the "middle" setting, see how it feels, and go from there. Your instructor will probably be more worried about technique (line, steering, throttle/brake) than damper settings, but you can always ask!

Seat: If you get hooked, yes you will probably want to get a true comptition seat. That said, you'll need to route the lap belt through the side hole, not over the top of the bolster (duh!), and you may want to consider going to a rollbar and 5- or 6-point harnesses. For your instructor's sake, duplicate the drivers setup on the passenger side!

MOST IMPORTANT THINGS: Bring a cooler with plenty of water, Gatorade, high-protein snacks, and stay hydrated and focused. HAVE FUN!!!

 

[Morris]

Thanks Dave, I will follow your advise!

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

As always, Dave provides some really great advice!

 

[Morris]

I had a spectacular time, the mustang won over some fans as it was eventually the fastest thing out there in group 1 and 2. The second day is where everything all comes together, like a lightbulb turns on and suddenly your view expands and skill level jumps dramaticly. The mustang really does make a kick ass track car despite the solid rear axle. It went well enough to dispatch a new 911 carrera gt3.

I made it through both days with out incident but had a very close call at the pinch point in turn one. I thought the guy saw me and the blue and yellow flag but still came over and almost got me mid pass. I didn't know about taking out the center caps, so I lost one of those other than that no issues with the car. The brakes did get hot, rotors turned blue and the squealed almost all the way home both days but returned to normal with some standard braking.

Most fun I have in a very long time. I highly recommend the NASA events, if you are thinking about it just do it! Nothing is like doing a 4 wheel drift at 100 mph with confidence. The sonoma track is so much fun with all the elevation changes, off camber turns its like a rollercoaster.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

The mustang really does make a kick ass track car despite the solid rear axle. It went well enough to dispatch a new 911 carrera gt3.

Minor point of disagreement: It wasn't the car, it was you, the driver, that made the difference! Nice job!

I made it through both days with out incident but had a very close call at the pinch point in turn one. I thought the guy saw me and the blue and yellow flag but still came over and almost got me mid pass.

What were your passing rules? From what you say, it sounds like no point-by was given, and that you were passing in a corner? I know T1 at Sonoma is more of a gentle bend, but was it a legal passing zone?

Also, the blue/yellow flag is an advisory flag, not a command flag.

Most fun I have in a very long time. I highly recommend the NASA events, if you are thinking about it just do it! Nothing is like doing a 4 wheel drift at 100 mph with confidence. The sonoma track is so much fun with all the elevation changes, off camber turns its like a rollercoaster.

Sweet!

 

[Morris]

We had 3 passing zones. No point by needed in any of them. Apparently NASA is one of the few groups where the point by is not required.

Obviously the t11 to t1, then t6 to t7 here you can only pass on the right and lastly from t10 to t11. It was a legal pass, and didn't seem risky but the guy changed his line. In hind sight, it was risky and ill probably avoid the out side pass if at all possible.

The trouble with group one is that you don't really pay enough attention to your surroundings. It's very hard at first to broaden your focus beyond your line. Honesty I could not do it until the second session of the second day. That is see every flag man, remember to check your mirrors, and hit all your marks. Strange thing is I had to make an effort to slow down, when I did that some how I could see everything I was missing and actually went faster by a good bit.

Maybe part of it was because I was making changes to my line in 3a, 4 and 6 as well as a slight change in 9 at the first of the second day. Maybe it was just seat time, Idk but at some point my awareness grew exponentially.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

It was a legal pass, and didn't seem risky but the guy changed his line. In hind sight, it was risky and ill probably avoid the out side pass if at all possible.

I think that would be a wise policy. In the Midwest Region, for HPDE-1/2, passing is on designated straights, and then only with a point-by. Even when I'm racing competitively, the outside is the losing place to be. Much faster to the inside!

Strange thing is I had to make an effort to slow down, when I did that some how I could see everything I was missing and actually went faster by a good bit.

DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!! Driver mod FTMFW, right there! THIS is why I repeatedly tell students not to worry about speed, because once you master your skills, speed simply comes naturally, without having to work at it.

Maybe part of it was because I was making changes to my line in 3a, 4 and 6 as well as a slight change in 9 at the first of the second day. Maybe it was just seat time, Idk but at some point my awareness grew exponentially.

Yup, that happens. Charging into a corner, with the rear end all squirrely under braking, snapping the wheel over, and mashing the gas on the way out absolutely feels fast, bit in reality, it's nowhere near what you can accomplish by throttling everything back to 90% and driving consistently!

Again, great job, it sounds like you learned quite a bit on your first weekend. Now, just get used to prostituting yourself on streetcorners to get entry fees, gas, brakes, and tires!

 

[Morris]

Lol thanks, and ya I think I found a new drug.

 

[fun4me]

I think that would be a wise policy. In the Midwest Region, for HPDE-1/2, passing is on designated straights, and then only with a point-by. Even when I'm racing competitively, the outside is the losing place to be. Much faster to the inside!



DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!! Driver mod FTMFW, right there! THIS is why I repeatedly tell students not to worry about speed, because once you master your skills, speed simply comes naturally, without having to work at it.



Yup, that happens. Charging into a corner, with the rear end all squirrely under braking, snapping the wheel over, and mashing the gas on the way out absolutely feels fast, bit in reality, it's nowhere near what you can accomplish by throttling everything back to 90% and driving consistently!

Again, great job, it sounds like you learned quite a bit on your first weekend. Now, just get used to prostituting yourself on streetcorners to get entry fees, gas, brakes, and tires!

I was wondering how you guys afford all this go-fast stuff.

 

[ddd4114]

Dave is just kidding... you don't really have to prostitute yourself. There are other ways to afford everything. For example, I found that cutting out one meal every day saves a lot of money. Also, you can reduce your water bill if you only shower once per week!

On a more serious note, regarding traction control - Dave is absolutely right that it will destroy your brake pads, and it will probably boil the fluid in the rear calipers if you have a stubborn and heavy right foot. However, I found that if you're only pushing the car 90-95%, putting it in sport mode (if you have the option) prevents most intervention. I turn it off completely now, but when I was starting out, it was a nice "insurance policy". If you're worried about messing up your car (as I was), it can help you relax a little which in turn allows you to concentrate more on your driving and awareness. The catch is that you don't want to rely on its intervention and learn bad habits; you only want to use it as a reminder that you're at/exceeding the limit. Once your car control improves and you push harder, it just becomes a hindrance, and I find the car is easier to drive fast with everything off. I'm not saying that one approach is better than the other, but I thought I'd provide a different perspective. Honestly, you'll probably learn faster if you turn everything off right away. For example, you'll learn that lifting (or worse, hitting the brakes) in a turn can send you on an impromptu adventure...

 

[Morris]

I tried it with tc on the first two sessions but by the third lap of the second session I was full throttle out of fun two! It was that much of a hiderance, when turned off you have to be very gentle there or the back end will start to come around. I have to agree, tc will destroy your brakes in short order on the track.

 

[Napoleon85]

I tried it with tc on the first two sessions but by the third lap of the second session I was full throttle out of fun two! It was that much of a hiderance, when turned off you have to be very gentle there or the back end will start to come around. I have to agree, tc will destroy your brakes in short order on the track.

First thing I do every time I get in the car is turn advancetrac off. That's how I've always driven the car, and I feel like its made me a better driver. Too many people are dependent upon the nannies to save them, I would rather depend on my driving skill (much more dependable than software IMO).

 

[Roadracer350]

WOAH! Hold on here! You cant pass except in designated areas? On the bikes if you were slower we would just bomb up under you in a corner or pass on a straight or short chute when we could. Seriously you cant just pass when you can?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Congrats on popping the track cherry.

As for seats, I have the wide version of that OMP and I love it.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Different regions run different rule sets... MOST of the time, it works out fine. In Midwest, we run HPDE-1 and -2 together, but we release the -2 grid first. Then HPDE-1 (with us instructors in the cars) goes out right after. The more experienced drivers, even with "slower" cars, tend to pull away, and that lets us (HPDE-1) focus on what we need to, namely getting used to the track environment, the line, techniques, etc.

We designate specific straights as "passing zones," and allow passing there ONLY, and then ONLY with a point-by. That accomplishes a few things. First, it lets the instructors focus more on the student, rather than checking (for us) poorly-aimed mirrors to see who's going to dive-bomb us... Second, it takes the pressure off the "slower" driver by letting him know, for a fact, that they can ignore the traffic behind them and just focus on learning, rather than worrying about who's about to dive-bomb him/her. Third, it gets EVERYBODY used to working together for traffic management. Fourth, it lets us teach, early in development, the proper formula for a pass.

Personally, when I'm on track with a bunch of people I don't know, I'm usually quite cautious about initiating a pass, unless I know that they've seen me. If I don't get eye-contact or a point, I'll do the school routine, drop back a bit, and focus on getting everything I can on corner exit, and get by them on the straight. If I know you, and I know you're heads-up, then yeah, I'll pull inside and stick my nose in, no problem.

Think about it this way: You're out on track, bomb up to a "slow" car, and tuck your nose in. In the mean-time, the other guy, who is absolutely convinced that because he's on a race track, his car is going to flip, burst into flames, and then explode unless he NAILS the line perfectly, is not watching his mirrors (tunnel vision) and pulls into apex. At that point, you have two wadded-up cars, two people (or more) at risk of injury, and red flags coming out all over.

Keep in mind, that's for the "novice" levels, not the more advanced groups. I also think that event insurance may have something to do with it as well.

I regularly instruct with several organizations, and they ALL restrict passing in the novice groups. With bikes, you only need what, 2' to fit inside of a guy? Not all that hard to correct your line if somebody does pop inside after you turn in. A car, on the other hand, needs at least 3' in the race classes, and I wouldn't count on a first-timer dropping wheels over the apex berm to buy the room. Most novices treat berms like concrete walls, something that is very bad to touch. Now the car needs at least 7' of space, not nearly as easy to correct for when both cars are over two tons. The guy on the inside may not be able to stick his exit (went in too hot trying to make the pass) and can collect the guy on the outside even if room was left. The guy on the outside is all of a sudden in a much lower traction situation (marbles!) and may wind up sliding off even if everything else was perfect.

We have to assume that the novice group is filled with, well, novices. People who are not used to the environment, are not situationally aware (Flag? What flag? Car? What car?), may not know the techniques to recover from an error, etc. The novice group is there for them to learn the basics, get the techniques imprinted correctly, and do so in as safe, and low-stress environment as possible. In the intermediate group (think HPDE-3) we do side-by-side excercises to acclimate the drivers (who are situationally aware, have experience with problem recovery, and are comfortable at speed) to the changes that need to be made to run off-line. We've also done drills where at controlled speed (two instructors acting as pace cars), we have the inside and outside cars swap places, but only in the corners. That gets them used to the whole passing thing, and preps them for the advanced level, where it's open passing, no point-by required. It's a ladder system. If you've ever seen a toddler knocking over crawling infants while he lurches about, barely able to control his own direction, you get what I'm talking about. Many tears are shed.

Disclaimer: These are my opinions only, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of any sanctioning body, sponsor, etc. No animal testing was performed. Eat your vegetables. That said, if the group you're running with has a different set of passing rules, and it's working for them, then don't stress over it. As long as everybody plays by the same rule set (hold your line!), then in theory, all will work out.

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

WOAH! Hold on here! You cant pass except in designated areas? On the bikes if you were slower we would just bomb up under you in a corner or pass on a straight or short chute when we could. Seriously you cant just pass when you can?

Get prepared, that's how it is at Hallett for HST! (If you do any of that before you race.

No point by needed, by I always give one so the passing driver knows that I see him and knows where he is going.

 

[Morris]

Dave nailed it. I'm going to try and post a video soon.

 

[Morris]

Have not had time to learn how to edit and post a video yet, sorry. Any way here are a few pics.

 

[Moochman4life]

WOAH! Hold on here! You cant pass except in designated areas? On the bikes if you were slower we would just bomb up under you in a corner or pass on a straight or short chute when we could. Seriously you cant just pass when you can?

In Virginia, one of the HPDE groups I run with is TrackDaze. Great organization, great guys. They run Novice (green), Intermediate (blue) and Advanced (red or black...can't remember...but one of those colors is the instructor group)...but because they usually have large turnouts for their events, they run a yellow group which is "between" intermediate and advanced. The yellow and red groups can pass anywhere on track. Green and blue are limited to designated passing areas. I wonder how the TrackDaze run groups compare/contrast to others?

As for affording everything: I'm military and bring my bubbas out with me if I'm not going it alone. I tell them that they need to cut back on blowing their paychecks at GNC every couple weeks. And stop eating out all the time when they could be getting (almost!) the same amount of nutrients by eating at the galley/DFAC.

For me, I sell spare car parts to fund my events...that and beg my awesome wife to let me go.