Help with Fuel Pump needs for 750rwhp - 850rwhp

[raredesign]

Hey everyone. First, this has been a huge learning experience, so I appreciate how patient everyone has been with me and for this forum resource. It is fantastic.

I am in a jam at this point, as communicating via email is sometimes a risk where context can be mixed or conveyed incorrectly.

When I purchased the S&H Performance Single Turbo Kit, I went with the 70mm, and we had initial talked about 550-600rwhp on a stock block. After some back and forth with them, I decided on doing a built block, and that my goal would be more 700rwhp-800rwhp. Somewhere along the line, understandably with a lot that had been talked about, and with me being so new to all this, I ended up with 60lb injectors and a 405lph Walbro DIY kit. It was recommended that I use a boost a pump to push it more, but after talking to the actual supplier (not sure if I am supposed to mention the name), I was informed it would fry the pump because they are not rated for more than 14volts (actual 13.5).

I am hoping that will be sorted out, but I first need to better understand what I actually do need, and if it is possible to hit 850rwhp on a returnless system. I cannot afford $2400 in fuel system upgrades at this point.

Will a GT500 dual fuel pump from AmericanMuscle.com at $700 be sufficient?
Do you see how it gets confusing, when I have a 405lph that won't suffice, but the GT500 dual fuel pump is advertised at 375lph, so I can only imagine that is per pump, lending to 750lph total flow.

I don't plan on running e85, as that sounds like my mpg would drop significantly, and aside from trips to shows, this is a nice summer daily driver or weekend driver.

While I have much to learn, this scenario completely caught me by surprise and will hold up the build and I don't want to cause my speed shop any frustration.

Thank you all

 

[stkjock]

This goal is on 93?

I think you will need a dual BAP with the GT500 set up and your power goals.

 

[BruceH]

Hey everyone. First, this has been a huge learning experience, so I appreciate how patient everyone has been with me and for this forum resource. It is fantastic.

I am in a jam at this point, as communicating via email is sometimes a risk where context can be mixed or conveyed incorrectly.

When I purchased the S&H Performance Single Turbo Kit, I went with the 70mm, and we had initial talked about 550-600rwhp on a stock block. After some back and forth with them, I decided on doing a built block, and that my goal would be more 700rwhp-800rwhp. Somewhere along the line, understandably with a lot that had been talked about, and with me being so new to all this, I ended up with 60lb injectors and a 405lph Walbro DIY kit. It was recommended that I use a boost a pump to push it more, but after talking to the actual supplier (not sure if I am supposed to mention the name), I was informed it would fry the pump because they are not rated for more than 14volts (actual 13.5).

I am hoping that will be sorted out, but I first need to better understand what I actually do need, and if it is possible to hit 850rwhp on a returnless system. I cannot afford $2400 in fuel system upgrades at this point.

Will a GT500 dual fuel pump from AmericanMuscle.com at $700 be sufficient?
Do you see how it gets confusing, when I have a 405lph that won't suffice, but the GT500 dual fuel pump is advertised at 375lph, so I can only imagine that is per pump, lending to 750lph total flow.

I don't plan on running e85, as that sounds like my mpg would drop significantly, and aside from trips to shows, this is a nice summer daily driver or weekend driver.

While I have much to learn, this scenario completely caught me by surprise and will hold up the build and I don't want to cause my speed shop any frustration.

Thank you all

Here are the specs for the GT500 pump from FRPP. Not sure where you are getting 375lph, that's the spec for the older Terminator pumps. The Terminator pumps used two 190lph while the GT500 uses two 255lph pumps.



I can tell you what I've supported with GT500 pumps. I've supported 699rwhp with e85. I also had one 40 amp bap hooked up. Keep in mind that was actual hp not weather corrected.

The farthest I pushed a gas motor was about 550rwhp and the GT500 pumps handled that without issue and without a bap or wire upgrade.

GT500 pumps will work for what you plan to do. You might have to add a bap once you get to the higher levels.

As for staying returnless I can't see a good reason to go return style. Staying returnless allows for the delta psi to be changed in the tune. This means that a lower delta can be run for moderate loads and a higher delta for higher loads. This is beneficial in driveability and in the range a particular injector is good for.

I understand that many people go return style with bigger hp setups but I have yet to have anyone explain why it's better. I also haven't seen anyone have a motor failure that's related to staying with a returnless setup. Return is a little easier for the tuner but not much.

 

[raredesign]

This goal is on 93?

I think you will need a dual BAP with the GT500 set up and your power goals.

Yes. I would like to stay 93 for availability. Although e85 is popping up everywhere, as I understand it is 35% more inefficient.

 

[raredesign]

Here are the specs for the GT500 pump from FRPP. Not sure where you are getting 375lph, that's the spec for the older Terminator pumps. The Terminator pumps used two 190lph while the GT500 uses two 255lph pumps.

Thank you for the info.
The gt500 dual pump at AM http://www.americanmuscle.com/ford-fuel-pump-0509gt.html is what I was looking at, and the specs are where I saw the 375. Is that the wrong one? If that is the correct one but with the wrong specs, would simply using this pump with 80lb injectors work. I have 60lb now, but I am hoping they let me return them since it hasn't even been opened yet.
If the injectors are not enough, would a fuel rail and line upgrade be the next step, and possibly a BAP?

I can tell you what I've supported with GT500 pumps. I've supported 699rwhp with e85. I also had one 40 amp bap hooked up. Keep in mind that was actual hp not weather corrected.

The farthest I pushed a gas motor was about 550rwhp and the GT500 pumps handled that without issue and without a bap or wire upgrade.

GT500 pumps will work for what you plan to do. You might have to add a bap once you get to the higher levels.

As for staying returnless I can't see a good reason to go return style. Staying returnless allows for the delta psi to be changed in the tune. This means that a lower delta can be run for moderate loads and a higher delta for higher loads. This is beneficial in driveability and in the range a particular injector is good for.

I understand that many people go return style with bigger hp setups but I have yet to have anyone explain why it's better. I also haven't seen anyone have a motor failure that's related to staying with a returnless setup. Return is a little easier for the tuner but not much.

I spoke with Fore Innovations earlier today, and the gentleman stated that he doesn't think my goal is possible on a returnless fuel system, and that my speed shop may not even want to tune a returnless. Perhaps, they make their most profit on the return style fuel systems. It seems the only useful info I ever get is here, since most of what I have read is marketing tactic, and the same things happens when talking to a retailer and get sales pitched. Again, thanks for the info.

 

[BruceH]

I'd go with what FRPP says over what a reseller is using for advertising material. Instead of relying on printed ad material do some research and see where people are with GT500 pumps. I'd start with GT500 owners.

Before you get too far ahead of yourself are you going to have the supporting mods for that much power? I'm talking about the drivetrain specifically. I don't think you will be able to make it on pump gas unless you add a meth injection but I'm not sure exactly where pump gas limits are with a 4.6 3v.

Let's say you have the supporting mods done and have a motor and power adder capable of that much power and it's down to a fuel system. I'd stay returnless and go with a set of Bosch 1000cc injectors. Jeremy has a good price on them and they can be run at low pulsewidths. This is important for driveability with injectors that large. Also important is being able to run them at a delta of 39.15 for normal driving, this will help control the normal driving gas flow.

I'd go with GT500 pumps and a single 40 amp bap wired into both fpdms. That's how I did it with my setup and it worked just fine. The FRPP GT500 wire harness powers both fpdms from the same power wire so it just makes sense to use one 40 amp bap instead of the dual 40 amp bap that has two wires coming out of it. I'd also change that power wire to an 8 gauge.

Since I've never been where you plan to go it's just an educated guess. If you don't go with GT500 pumps then you will probably be forced to go return style because I'm not aware of another pump that is recommended for returnless. The only aftermarket pumps I've seen have a manufacturer warning to only use them in a return style setup. That doesn't mean they can't be run as returnless but it's probably not a good idea. Once again it's just a guess because I've always used the Ford parts that are designed for the fuel system I'm using.

 

[stkjock]

Yes. I would like to stay 93 for availability. Although e85 is popping up everywhere, as I understand it is 35% more inefficient.

Yes, it's less fuel efficient, but more motor preserving.

 

[BruceH]

Yes, it's less fuel efficient, but more motor preserving.

Lol, very true.

OP once you get to a higher hp level mpg is going to be lower no matter what you do. I usually see a difference of about 18% between pump gas and E85. But I'm only running E85 with a setup that has higher than normal cylinder pressures. The more cylinder pressure the more you get out of E85.

This is another one of those things where you really need to find people with real world experience. Everyone has an opinion but many of them are based on what someone else said. Do your research and use your best judgement.

 

[Wes06]

If we had e-85 where i live, id build a stupid compression motor + supercharger

but alas we dont...sad day

 

[raredesign]

Here are the specs for the GT500 pump from FRPP. Not sure where you are getting 375lph, that's the spec for the older Terminator pumps. The Terminator pumps used two 190lph while the GT500 uses two 255lph pumps.



I can tell you what I've supported with GT500 pumps. I've supported 699rwhp with e85. I also had one 40 amp bap hooked up. Keep in mind that was actual hp not weather corrected.

The farthest I pushed a gas motor was about 550rwhp and the GT500 pumps handled that without issue and without a bap or wire upgrade.

GT500 pumps will work for what you plan to do. You might have to add a bap once you get to the higher levels.

As for staying returnless I can't see a good reason to go return style. Staying returnless allows for the delta psi to be changed in the tune. This means that a lower delta can be run for moderate loads and a higher delta for higher loads. This is beneficial in driveability and in the range a particular injector is good for.

I understand that many people go return style with bigger hp setups but I have yet to have anyone explain why it's better. I also haven't seen anyone have a motor failure that's related to staying with a returnless setup. Return is a little easier for the tuner but not much.

Thanks BruceH. Where do you find correct specs like the image you referenced above. I checked FRPP and the PDF on the page, but no luck.
https://fordperformanceracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9639

So with the GT500 dual pump and wiring, rails, fuel line, BAP, and 1000cc injectors, I should be close to what I am looking for.

I will have to research if Kenne Belle's BAP is the best option or not. They do have a dual, but it is pricey. It would be nice to have everything under the hood rather than in the trunk, as I've seen with some other manufacturers.

Also, regarding the tranny, I have the stock right now, but hope I'll be alright on the road for now as I don't plan to drag yet, until I get a 6060, axels, drive shaft, and suspension...in other words...Phase 2.

 

[BruceH]

Thanks BruceH. Where do you find correct specs like the image you referenced above. I checked FRPP and the PDF on the page, but no luck.
https://fordperformanceracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9639

The visual I posted came from a 2009 FRPP catalogue iirc.

So with the GT500 dual pump and wiring, rails, fuel line, BAP, and 1000cc injectors, I should be close to what I am looking for.

I will have to research if Kenne Belle's BAP is the best option or not. They do have a dual, but it is pricey. It would be nice to have everything under the hood rather than in the trunk, as I've seen with some other manufacturers.

Also, regarding the tranny, I have the stock right now, but hope I'll be alright on the road for now as I don't plan to drag yet, until I get a 6060, axels, drive shaft, and suspension...in other words...Phase 2.

A dual bap isn't needed. A single 40 amp will work just fine, it will power both pumps and is a whole lot cheaper. The dual puts out 20v which is too much imo.

You shouldn't need aftermarket rails. In addition to the pumps and bap you will want to run a larger power wire with the GT500 harness but it doesn't have to be done right away, just like the bap won't need to be done right away.

A larger fuel line will also help with fuel flow.

If I was in your shoes I'd start with the FRPP GT500 pump setup and add from there. It will take you pretty far with gasoline. Add the 1000cc injectors and you have most of what you need.

Power numbers are thrown around on forums like there is nothing to obtaining them. It gets exponentially harder once you past the mid 500's. The power becomes less useable at that level also. Too much power can make driving unpleasant. The advantage you have is a turbo. You will be able to dial the power back for street driving just by adjusting a boost controller.

Edit: I just reread your signature. Forgive me if I missed this earlier but are you on the stock motor? If so do yourself a favor and build the motor first and decide on upgrading the fuel system as you add power. You might find that a lower level of power will suit you just fine.

 

[raredesign]

Edit: I just reread your signature. Forgive me if I missed this earlier but are you on the stock motor? If so do yourself a favor and build the motor first and decide on upgrading the fuel system as you add power. You might find that a lower level of power will suit you just fine.

I have Manley pistons, rods, arp 2000 bolts, and scat crank (3.75). Not installed yet, but my tuner recommended just going the .020 over rather than trying to bore too lightly, so I think the stroke will put me around 4.9 - 5.0.
I just bought the Stage 3 cams, comp springs, and phase lockouts today from Livernois. The stock aluminum block is being torque plate honed, and I have the Steeda charge motion control plate, and BBK shorty headers.

 

[Saleen304]

I am using stock rails, DW 1000cc injectors, upgraded efi fitting for increased flow, wire upgrade, and two direct fit DW300 series fuel pumps. Think they are rated for 340 lph. I am making 750/671 with a twin screw on e85 and I am at 85% FP duty cycle. No BAP. The efi connector and wire upgrade dropped duty cycle by 15%. Got my parts from Jeremy at S&H.

 

[Unreal]

Get enough pump to run e85 IMO. You could do a triple 320 AEM setup that would handle that with ease and be able to make 1000+ on e85 later.

 

[raredesign]

Get enough pump to run e85 IMO. You could do a triple 320 AEM setup that would handle that with ease and be able to make 1000+ on e85 later.

Is the triple setup going to be return style though?

For a returnless, what you guys think of this Fore Innovations kit? http://www.foreinnovations.com/product_p/3-702.htm

Apparently, I wouldn't need a BAP and just need to get some EV14 injectors, right?

 

[Fullboogie]

Scour the GT500 forums, in particular the classifieds, and you can probably pick up a fuel hat assembly, pumps, and FPDMs for relatively cheap. Add a BAP and you're good to go.

 

[Unreal]

Fore is amazing stuff. I would just get that kit with the big pumps. That will do your power goals easy and be e85 compatible later.

 

[jrgones]

You need a lot of fuel for 800whp. I wouldn't do that on 93. It can be done but you're on the edge of destruction doing that. E85 has a much larger margin of error.

Just push the returnless until the fuel pressure no longer holds up at WOT. Eventually, as you run out of fuel system, you'll see the pressure quit holding steady under full power - that's when you know it's time for a return style setup. If you stay returnless, get at least the GT500 setup with a BAP.

For return style - dual Walbro 455 pumps will support 850+whp on E85 easily with -8 and -6 lines. You can go -10 and -8 or some go -10 -10 on the lines.

 

[BruceH]

Thanks BruceH. Where do you find correct specs like the image you referenced above. I checked FRPP and the PDF on the page, but no luck.
https://fordperformanceracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9639

So with the GT500 dual pump and wiring, rails, fuel line, BAP, and 1000cc injectors, I should be close to what I am looking for.

I will have to research if Kenne Belle's BAP is the best option or not. They do have a dual, but it is pricey. It would be nice to have everything under the hood rather than in the trunk, as I've seen with some other manufacturers.

Also, regarding the tranny, I have the stock right now, but hope I'll be alright on the road for now as I don't plan to drag yet, until I get a 6060, axels, drive shaft, and suspension...in other words...Phase 2.

It's on page 216 of the current FRPP pdf catalogue. http://fordperformanceracingparts.com/download/catalogs/virtual/index.html They have loads of good info in there. I think that some of the fuel injector and pump info isn't up to date though. All of the injectors are rated at 40psi for the power they will support. As we know increasing the delta psi is as easy as commanding more in the tune. I also think that they are pretty conservative with the bfsc parameter because actual results are that much more power can be made than their formula would allow. Maybe it's because modern motors are capable of more power per cubic inch than motors from the past.

 

[raredesign]

Thank you all.

S&H Performance is really helping me out. They are going to exchange the Walbro 405lph and 60lb injectors I already purchased and put them toward a new system since I hadn't opened them yet. I have the upgraded wiring from them so they said to keep that.

We are looking at Bosch 1000cc injectors, and the Stage 2 Returnless Fore Innovations system that uses two Walbro F10000302 which are modified Super GT pumps.

http://www.foreinnovations.com/product_p/3-702.htm

I mentioned my concern of it only using one FPDM, but that is what the system is designed for, and I guess if I had to later, I could convert the setup to use two.

He said it should handle up to 900+rwhp on 93, and doesn't think I will need a BAP to hit that. We will confirm with Justin at Fore Innovations on Monday.

Thanks again!