I need help!!!

[sheizasosay]

Well why don't you convince Bilstein to offer rebound adjustables? Coilovers would be nice to have access to the sprig rates.

In regards to koni's leaking internally. That's good info to know. I timed mine before I ever put them on my car. Each one I pushed in and timed the return on full soft and full firm. 10/11 seconds on soft and 28/30 seconds for firm. Hoping that would be a measuring stick for inspection. At least there is a warranty there.

I think Bilstein made an incorrect assumption in the market. I believe they would DEFINITELY sell. I've made the comment more than once that a rebound adjustable Bilstein would sell. Even in a conventional spring configuration.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Well why don't you convince Bilstein to offer rebound adjustables?

Apparently they showed an adjustable retrofit kit at PRI last year, but I've heard nothing about it since.

 

[csamsh]

Will these fit my 4150's/can you make me some?

 

[jayman33]

AST are still available in the U.S. we have already hooked up with the new U.S. based contracted distributor and have been ordering sets. Its a little slow moving as they don't have the sets on hand yet, the price has gone up a little for 2014 but the new company will have a little more "rules" when selling AST sets, they don't use Hyperco but AST linear race springs and Swift springs, no more Hyperco springs. We're working with some options for S197's. Terry, I don't know if you're in touch with them yet but you should get ahold of them, let me know if you don't have their contact info but I'm sure you have it.

 

[Boaisy]

So yes, we DO recommend the Bilstein INVERTED and non-adjustable MONOTUBE strut and rear shock combo for those on a tight budget. We sell the shocks for $806, which is a good price. Again, they aren't adjustable like the Konis, but they ARE strut shorter bodies (by 1.25") so you gain a lot more usable bump travel/stroke at these lower ride heights. That's one of the main reasons we sell them, and at $1499 all-in (Vorshlag camber plates, your choice of lowering springs - even more than we list on our website, plus the Bilsteins) and we feel it is a good compromise for street and dual purpose cars.

So would the kit cost any different with, let's say, Steeda Ultralite's?

 

[modernbeat]

So would the kit cost any different with, let's say, Steeda Ultralite's?

I won't be back at work until Monday to verify this against my test results, but from memory we tested those and found them too close to the Ford "P" springs to include. The Steeda Race springs were much stiffer, but the rear spring rate was too high relative to the front to be considered. The Ford "T" springs were also cut based on poor rates.

If you want springs that we do not offer, it's easy enough to buy the Bilsteins and Vorshlag camber plates separately and put them together yourself. But know that there is a range of spring rates that will work with the Bilsteins, and there are good front-to-rear spring ratios that work with the car. The springs we offer fill that range fairly well and almost anything else is either outside that range or a duplicate of what we already have.

 

[Jucostud]

Thanks for all the info Jason Jayman, Terry, and Jason vorshlag.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Apparently they showed an adjustable retrofit kit at PRI last year, but I've heard nothing about it since.

Yea, they keep teasing us with parts that the US Bilstein crew cannot seem to import, heh.

They have been showing off a number of Motorsports parts for the past two years that would make it easier for shops like ours to MAKE new Bilstein fitments - for car models they do not cover. We've done a few of these in the past year, taking a Bilstein shock (PSS or OEM style) and modifying them to fit another chassis. But we need more parts to offer that for the s197.

Bilstein has a lot of great adjustable monotubes in their Motorsport line - singles, doubles, remotes, shocks, struts - but nothing for an S197 yet. Just the OEM style units we carry now.

Making a custom rear shock for an S197 is a breeze, which we can do now with their Motorsports kits (see last picture in this post). The trick is making the front strut housings, but we need them to sell us the correct strut shafts/parts to finish them off.

There is a 46mm piston "Motorsports strut kit" offered which we can finally now get (and we have some in stock, and we're building them for a Mustang) but they are SO BIG they will limit wheel room on most cars. The strut body is 50mm, and they require 70mm and larger coilover springs. These are more suited for rally use (which is what we are building this set for).

What we've been clamoring for is the 36mm Motorsport strut kits, which have been promised for a little while. It would basically be the parts shown above, with the strut housing in bare steel and minus the spindle brackets. Once we get those kits, then we can then make real Bilstein coilovers for the S197, with all Bilstein parts. Non-adj, single and double adjustables, remotes, whatever. Some day... maybe this year?

As for the ease of rebuilding Koni twin tubes - yes, a lot of shops can do this. But remember, VERY few (none?) in the USA can actually recharge the Nitrogen gas charge on Koni twin tubes. Those have to be sent to Europe to b recharged. So instead of doing that, some Koni rebuilders have convinced people that "de-gassing" a Koni is somehow a GOOD thing. Which is the opposite of true, but whatever - its the only way they can often be rebuilt without the hassles of shipping them overseas. Just know that once "de-gassed" your twin tubes hydraulic fluid now looks like a milk shake in ~10 seconds of use instead of after ~60 seconds of use.

Bilstein OEM style monotubes (the low cost non-adjustable units, both 36 and 46mm piston) have the same limitation - you need a big, expensive rebuild rig (like the one above, about $4000) to recharge the Nitrogen levels in these, too. We looked at this rig at PRI this last December, and it is massive, but that's what you have to do to recharge the Bilstein units that don't have an external refill nipple or schreader valve.

Having an external schreader valve makes checking, rebuilding, and topping off the Nitrogen levels SO much easier - anyone can get a fill rig setup and do this themselves, which is common for higher end monotubes with remotes. Many of the non-adjustable Bilsteins are sealed, and a hassle to refill. Almost all of the Motorsports shocks can be refilled easily, however.

Anyway, just some more perspective. Hope that helps.

 

[NoTicket]

Thanks for the insight Terry.

What is the nitrogen refill situation like on the MCS TT1 kit you guys sell? I imagine the RR2's are pretty simple to refill, given they are remote reservoirs.

 

[sheizasosay]

Unfortunately, as I was told earlier this week, AST-USA/HVT is no longer importing AST shocks, so there is no source for the now more mature and higher quality 4150s, for any car.

How is Hypermotive still getting them?

 

[Boaisy]

How is Hypermotive still getting them?

AST are still available in the U.S. we have already hooked up with the new U.S. based contracted distributor and have been ordering sets. Its a little slow moving as they don't have the sets on hand yet, the price has gone up a little for 2014 but the new company will have a little more "rules" when selling AST sets, they don't use Hyperco but AST linear race springs and Swift springs, no more Hyperco springs. We're working with some options for S197's. Terry, I don't know if you're in touch with them yet but you should get ahold of them, let me know if you don't have their contact info but I'm sure you have it.

 

[sheizasosay]

????

 

[Boaisy]

Jayman, who is with Hypermotive, said in that quote that another distributor picked up the AST business. That is how they are still getting them.

 

[sheizasosay]

Jayman, who is with Hypermotive, said in that quote that another distributor picked up the AST business. That is how they are still getting them.

Oh. AST dropped Vorshlag for Hypermotiv? Why the hell would they do that?

 

[Boaisy]

Oh. AST dropped Vorshlag for Hypermotiv? Why the hell would they do that?

They didn't drop Vorshlag. I'm guessing that AST just lost whoever was their distributor in the US. Hypermotive just happened to find out who the newer US distributor is, and is even offering up the info to Vorshlag.

 

[sheizasosay]

They didn't drop Vorshlag. I'm guessing that AST just lost whoever was their distributor in the US. Hypermotive just happened to find out who the newer US distributor is, and is even offering up the info to Vorshlag.

Alright....I'm sure that was painful for you, but thanks!

 

[kcbrown]

Yes, those are indeed the costs. No denying it: the MCS singles are pricey, and we all know it. Losing the $650 cheaper AST 4150 was a real kick in the nuts - but its gone from the USA for now. Unobtanium.

Look, if you are willing to deal with the compromises and shortcomings, the GC Koni coilover setup can work, and you can dial in enough compression (with a custom revalve) to make them even work with the stiffer spring rates needed to control the pitch/dive/heave of the front heavy Mustang. BUT. There's always a downside when you go the cheaper route. They are kind of disposable shocks... they are painful to revalve, rebuild, re-charge with nitrogen.

There are always compromises and shortcomings when you have a limited budget. That's just the way of life. That's why I phrased my statement the way I did.

If you're competing on a limited budget, you have to put your money towards those things that will make the greatest difference in performance for the money. So it's going to come down to whether the price difference between Koni (Ground Control) coilovers and MCS coilovers will get you better performance if you spend it on the MCS dampers or on other bits and pieces (e.g., a torque arm).

They are likely going to ride like ass compared to a monotube with the same spring rates.

If the car is strictly for competition, as it is for the OP, then how it rides isn't going to be much of a concern, as long as it's not too bad.

And as for how it rides, I'm very interested in knowing just how much of a difference there's going to be between a properly valved Koni-based coilover setup and a monotube damper setup when keeping the spring rates the same, when said spring rates are relatively low (300 lbs/in max in front).

You realize, of course, that you're implying that Wiskey11's car rides like ass, right?

That's another limitation of twin tubes - they simply cannot react as quickly to small damper movements or low velocities like a monotube. Much more prone to fluid cavitation, the don't dissipate heat as well, and on and on and on.

And in an autocross setting, where you're on the track for what, 60 seconds, how much of a difference does that really make?

Context matters.

Well... it depends. There are other suspension parts you could get with that $1800, that would help, for sure. But I don't think to the same degree as proper monotube adjustable coilovers.

You think the difference between properly valved twin tube dampers and monotube dampers would buy you more performance than, say, a torque arm ($1000) plus adjustable sway bars ($500) plus a good panhard bar ($250) for an autocrosser? Seriously??

I would expect the difference to make more of a difference for a competition road course driver. For that person, monotube dampers are more likely to be the way to go, but that presumes that there's still sufficient budget remaining for, at least, an adjustable panhard bar.

So yes, while the GC Konis do get possibly more stroke at the lowered ride height, and they are adjustable, they won't perform like the monotubes, won't have the damping adjustment range of something like the AST or MCS, and won't have the ride of either of those at the same spring rates. The choice is yours.

The GC guys tell me they can put the coilover dampers in a housing that will ensure that, at the preferred ride height, the damper will be at its optimal position. That suggests to me that they can tailor the damper housing length to suit the amount of lowering desired.

That's of great value to me because I plan on lowering my car by only about half an inch since it's a daily driver in an area with crappy streets, steep driveway entrances, and large speed bumps everywhere. And since I'm not in this for competition and won't be using massive (competition level) spring rates, the benefits of monotube dampers probably won't make as much of a difference for me than they would someone else.


Now, if you manage to get Bilstein single-adjustable monotube coilover dampers in housings that would put them at the ideal position when the ride height is only half an inch lower than stock, then you'll have my interest!

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I have some back to back experience using re-valved Koni Yellows compared to Moton triples. This was a Nationals back in 2010 or 2011. My civic was up to 1000# springs up front and working really well on them, but the Koni yellows, even valved as stiff as they could be, where just overwhelmed. The car pogo'd badly. In a beer fueled discussion, my buddy Tim volunteered that if I was willing to do the wrench work I could use his Motons. So I did. This was prior to the start of competition, but on the test course I went 8/10 faster on the Motons on a ~30 second course. That said, my co-driver (a better driver than I) only picked up 1/10. My theory is that the ultimate capability of the car didn't change much, but the drive-ability improved immensely.

The net result of this testing was impressive enough though that we ended up changing the shocks back and forth half a dozen times over the next couple of days, as he was running 2nd heat and I was 4th heat. He would take his runs, we'd put both cars in the air, swap the dampers (including disassembling, changing springs, re-setting perches, etc) and then I'd take my runs, followed by swapping back before the next day, and then repeating it all again. It was a little nutty, but it was worth it. Came home with my best finish - 2nd - that year.

 

[csamsh]

There are always compromises and shortcomings when you have a limited budget. That's just the way of life. That's why I phrased my statement the way I did.

If you're competing on a limited budget, you have to put your money towards those things that will make the greatest difference in performance for the money. So it's going to come down to whether the price difference between Koni (Ground Control) coilovers and MCS coilovers will get you better performance if you spend it on the MCS dampers or on other bits and pieces (e.g., a torque arm).
tires, wheels, dampers/springs, seats. Everything else is incremental.


If the car is strictly for competition, as it is for the OP, then how it rides isn't going to be much of a concern, as long as it's not too bad.

And as for how it rides, I'm very interested in knowing just how much of a difference there's going to be between a properly valved Koni-based coilover setup and a monotube damper setup when keeping the spring rates the same, when said spring rates are relatively low (300 lbs/in max in front).
I would say...significant. Granted, I wasn't running a Koni coilover setup, but my ride improved 1300% when I switched to AST's from Koni yellows


You realize, of course, that you're implying that Wiskey11's car rides like ass, right?

It might?

And in an autocross setting, where you're on the track for what, 60 seconds, how much of a difference does that really make?
You'd be surprised. Dampers get a workout in autox, as it's nearly constant transition, and that what a damper does- convert kinetic energy generated in transition to heat


Context matters.


You think the difference between properly valved twin tube dampers and monotube dampers would buy you more performance than, say, a torque arm ($1000) plus adjustable sway bars ($500) plus a good panhard bar ($250) for an autocrosser? Seriously??
I agree with Terry. I would easily take coilovers over that stuff. I think the torque arm is a paperweight though...so that's a philosophical thing.

I would expect the difference to make more of a difference for a competition road course driver. For that person, monotube dampers are more likely to be the way to go, but that presumes that there's still sufficient budget remaining for, at least, an adjustable panhard bar.
I think you underestimate the importance of dampers in autox


The GC guys tell me they can put the coilover dampers in a housing that will ensure that, at the preferred ride height, the damper will be at its optimal position. That suggests to me that they can tailor the damper housing length to suit the amount of lowering desired.

That's of great value to me because I plan on lowering my car by only about half an inch since it's a daily driver in an area with crappy streets, steep driveway entrances, and large speed bumps everywhere. And since I'm not in this for competition and won't be using massive (competition level) spring rates, the benefits of monotube dampers probably won't make as much of a difference for me than they would someone else.


Now, if you manage to get Bilstein single-adjustable monotube coilover dampers in housings that would put them at the ideal position when the ride height is only half an inch lower than stock, then you'll have my interest!
That would be a good thing to have. The S197 market needs more simple (single-adjustable) high quality coilovers in the $2000 range

hey y'all

 

[kcbrown]

tires, wheels, dampers/springs, seats. Everything else is incremental.

I agree, if you're talking about upgrading from stock. But I'm skeptical that you can legitimately say that any improvement to dampers/springs, no matter how minor, will always outweigh some other incremental change.

I would say...significant. Granted, I wasn't running a Koni coilover setup, but my ride improved 1300% when I switched to AST's from Koni yellows

Were the Konis properly valved for the application? Were the spring rates beyond the point that the Konis could work properly? Were the Konis centered with respect to their working range at ride height?

You'd be surprised. Dampers get a workout in autox, as it's nearly constant transition, and that what a damper does- convert kinetic energy generated in transition to heat

Yes, but the reason heat is a problem is that a sufficient quantity of it causes detrimental changes to the properties of the damper. More precisely, the problem is with temperature, which is a function of heat input (minus heat dissipation) and heat capacity. Even if a damper is getting a workout, if its temperature doesn't go beyond the point at which detrimental effects occur, it will function properly.

So: is 60 seconds of heightened activity sufficient to raise the temperature of the dampers beyond the point of proper function? I'm skeptical. Because if it were, then how in the world did Sam Strano manage to consistently win with dampers that, supposedly, have precisely the problem we're talking about here when going up against guys running dampers that lack that problem?

I agree with Terry. I would easily take coilovers over that stuff. I think the torque arm is a paperweight though...so that's a philosophical thing.

The only reason I mentioned the torque arm is that relocatable LCAs aren't an option for (at least some) autocrossers, so that leaves only a torque arm as the means of properly controlling the rear for them.

Regardless, the real point is that the price difference between Koni-based coilovers and MCS coilovers buys you a lot of additional adjustability and, perhaps, capability, when applied to other parts of the suspension. If the suspension is a set of components that have to work in harmony, changing the tires, dampers, and springs without touching the rest of the suspension would, logically, yield a suspension that is not operating as harmoniously as it would if other parts, such as LCAs, Panhard bar (or Watts link), sway bars, etc., were included in the list.

I think you underestimate the importance of dampers in autox

No, I don't think I do. I understand they're critical. What I question is the difference between a good twin tube design and a monotube design in that particular setting as regards performance. I'm skeptical that said difference can make more of a difference in the final result than would dealing with other parts of the suspension to bring them into harmony with the spring/damper/wheel/tire changes.

If you could choose between MCS coilovers alone (with everything else in the suspension remaining in stock form), and good twin tube coilovers with all the rest of the suspension bits you'd need to bring the rest of the suspension into harmony with your springs and twin tube dampers, which would you choose? Would you really leave the rest of the suspension in stock form just to get the monotube coilovers? ETA: This question is meaningful only if we presume that the problem of acquiring the additional suspension bits can't be solved later. Obviously, if you're willing to save up and buy the later suspension bits when the funds become available, then your budget isn't really limited in the way we're presuming here. It also presumes that you're willing to take the initial competitive hit, if any, in order to become more competitive later.