Idle issues with lito tune..still :/

teeje

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Well I can tell you that voltage is good at tb. Throttle body is brand new with all new oem sensors. Pulled pods and tps voltages 1 and 2 correlation are fine. Last tune before the new throttle body was way better and I could almost never get the issue to replicate.
also I'd like to note thay tps voltages 1 and 2 are smooth and never spike when the rpms dip. The voltages go back to normal and the rpms drop.

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GlassTop09

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I like the idea of controlling the air bypassing the throttle body but I’m not sure a 1/8” orifice will vent the CC at 6,000 rpm.
Yep, this is why I stated in my prior posting that if Ford had designed the PCV valve control section in the DS valve cover to be serviceable then the only item needed would have been to swap out the PCV valve plunger w\ another 1 that has a smaller orifice or use something to plug the existing orifice in the plunger & drill a smaller one to replace it that would have served the same purpose but would open up fully on lowered manifold vacuum signal (normal operation of a PCV valve) thus why I also said in prior posting that a 2nd PCV valve is what is needed w\ a smaller orifice but no one makes 1 that is designed to be taken apart to resize the orifice so this UPR check valve is the only device that I could find that is metal, easily serviceable (can be taken apart & reassembled easily) & uses a sliding plunger type Teflon seat. The spring inside this check valve is not that strong & will easily allow the plunger to move off it's seat w\ a very small vacuum applied but I tested this as well by installing varying amounts of shimming then testing to see how much effort it would take to unseat it & as long as I didn't exceed 2 washer's thickness I could easily unseat the plunger off it's seat & move air thru the 1/8" orifice. In reality probably only needed to use 1 washer anyway......

The main issue as you've noted is whether enough of a vacuum signal still exists at WOT & high RPM's (created from deltaP thru the TB venturi's w\ butterfly blades fully open but I'm not sure if the TB TPS sensor is designed to go to a full 100% open range so the TB blades may be opened to only 86% max....Ford Workshop Manual states that at 96% duty cycle which is max for S197 ETC the TB blades are at 86% actual max open angle...any ETC duty cycle % signal past 96% will trigger limp mode) to keep up w\ the amount of cylinder blow by produced thru this 1\8" orifice since it is a fixed orifice. Using this setup w\ a NA engine I don't foresee an issue since the cylinders are operating within the OEM designed CR index unless this index is changed (by increasing the cylinder CR) or the engine's cylinder walls & piston rings are so worn out creating excessive amounts of blow by gasses. I actually thought about testing for this but to do so I would have to rig up a test port to attach a vacuum gauge upstream of this device to measure the amount of vacuum drop but what would really be needed is an airflow metering device installed to actually measure the amount of actual air volume flow thru PCV system at WOT....which I ain't got so if the FWM data is correct (I can't see why Ford would output bad data in this manual) then there should still be more than enough of a vacuum signal created at high RPM's from the TB plates being less than full open to properly evacuate the CC....even thru this 1/8" orifice...in a NA engine (you'd be surprised at how much actual air volume can be moved thru a small orifice due to the compressibility factor index of air at low deltaP across the orifice due to the gas composition % of the total air stream & if any hydrocarbons (gasses lighter than air) are mixed w\ the air stream this INCREASES the air's compressibility index so can move even more volume at the same deltaP). In addition the PCM will be retarding the cam timing according to the WOT VCT tables which will lower engine dynamic compression at high RPM's thus lower cylinder pressure thus lower potential blow by gasses as well in a NA engine....by design unless a tuner resets the settings in the tune to stop this from happening but I think you'll not appreciate the mid/upper range HP\TQ losses from doing that...……what VCT brought to the overall performance curve of these 3V engines & IMHO shouldn't be disabled if engine usage will involve daily normal street operation…...

Now when talking FI (Roots\TVS blowers only as they still incorporate the full OEM PCV flow design process, centri's & turbos will REQUIRE a check valve to block the DS PCV route off when under boost so CC blow by gasses will revert back thru the PS valve cover anyway) this isn't needed as the Roots/TVS blower is drawing so much more air volume flow thru the CAI\TB intake tract the existing PCV plunger's orifice may not be big enough as the PCV plunger may still be drawn onto it's seat at high RPM's w\ WOT due to high PCV system vacuum thus air flow (especially if the smaller 55mm TB is still being used) thus causing any extra CC blow by gasses to actually revert back thru the PS side valve cover into the CAI upstream of the TB. Most likely is why most FI users have catch cans installed on both sides of the PCV system...…...also why some remove the PCV valve plunger in the DS valve cover as well..…….

Anyway I drove the car today (was too lazy to do it yesterday...….) to test operation under actual driving conditions & can report that all throttle deceleration control has returned to normal w\ this 62mm TB...even w\ car still in motion w\ TB closed & clutch engaged\disengaged. The PCV system flow is now controlled to the point that the MAF signal is now fully & completely following the TB blade angle so the PCM is metering fuel to match so engine will now properly slow down to set idle RPM speed once the injectors are turned back on after engine RPM's drop below 1,000 RPM's on deceleration w\ 62mm TB in full closed position (foot off accel pedal). Prior to this device being installed the engine RPM's would hold at the 1,000 RPM mark while slowing down w\ TB in closed position until car was fully stopped (clutch pedal engaged) at which time the PCM would then pull TB blades to drop the MAF signal to lower engine RPM's to idle set speeds then cut fuel to match the MAF which would cause the engine idle to drop below 700 then PCM would correct back up to the set idle speed. This was due to the excess air volume flow after MAF section bypassing the 62mm TB thru the PCV system. I "fixed" this prior by keeping the engine engaged to the drive train when decelerating using the brakes to slow the engine RPM's down to idle speed then engaging the clutch to stop as the MAF signal will follow the engine RPM's thus the PCM will meter fuel accordingly.

I don't have to do this anymore since installing this device. The 1/8" orifice may actually be overkill to rectify this issue meaning a larger orifice than this 1/8" can solve this issue as well but if I don't find any operational conditions to warrant resizing or removal it's a done deal. The 1 major issue that I can see occurring is potential orifice hydrate (freeze off) in cold weather depending upon conditions until under hood temps rise enough to counter it (tis why some external PCV valves are either coolant heated using engine jacket coolant or electric heated on some make's engine designs....also 1 of the reasons why Ford designed the PCV valve assembly to be a permanent internal design inside the valve cover, FYI).

I'll find this out in a few months as the weather's changing already up here in the Four Corners area...……...
 

teeje

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Yep, this is why I stated in my prior posting that if Ford had designed the PCV valve control section in the DS valve cover to be serviceable then the only item needed would have been to swap out the PCV valve plunger w\ another 1 that has a smaller orifice or use something to plug the existing orifice in the plunger & drill a smaller one to replace it that would have served the same purpose but would open up fully on lowered manifold vacuum signal (normal operation of a PCV valve) thus why I also said in prior posting that a 2nd PCV valve is what is needed w\ a smaller orifice but no one makes 1 that is designed to be taken apart to resize the orifice so this UPR check valve is the only device that I could find that is metal, easily serviceable (can be taken apart & reassembled easily) & uses a sliding plunger type Teflon seat. The spring inside this check valve is not that strong & will easily allow the plunger to move off it's seat w\ a very small vacuum applied but I tested this as well by installing varying amounts of shimming then testing to see how much effort it would take to unseat it & as long as I didn't exceed 2 washer's thickness I could easily unseat the plunger off it's seat & move air thru the 1/8" orifice. In reality probably only needed to use 1 washer anyway......

The main issue as you've noted is whether enough of a vacuum signal still exists at WOT & high RPM's (created from deltaP thru the TB venturi's w\ butterfly blades fully open but I'm not sure if the TB TPS sensor is designed to go to a full 100% open range so the TB blades may be opened to only 86% max....Ford Workshop Manual states that at 96% duty cycle which is max for S197 ETC the TB blades are at 86% actual max open angle...any ETC duty cycle % signal past 96% will trigger limp mode) to keep up w\ the amount of cylinder blow by produced thru this 1\8" orifice since it is a fixed orifice. Using this setup w\ a NA engine I don't foresee an issue since the cylinders are operating within the OEM designed CR index unless this index is changed (by increasing the cylinder CR) or the engine's cylinder walls & piston rings are so worn out creating excessive amounts of blow by gasses. I actually thought about testing for this but to do so I would have to rig up a test port to attach a vacuum gauge upstream of this device to measure the amount of vacuum drop but what would really be needed is an airflow metering device installed to actually measure the amount of actual air volume flow thru PCV system at WOT....which I ain't got so if the FWM data is correct (I can't see why Ford would output bad data in this manual) then there should still be more than enough of a vacuum signal created at high RPM's from the TB plates being less than full open to properly evacuate the CC....even thru this 1/8" orifice...in a NA engine (you'd be surprised at how much actual air volume can be moved thru a small orifice due to the compressibility factor index of air at low deltaP across the orifice due to the gas composition % of the total air stream & if any hydrocarbons (gasses lighter than air) are mixed w\ the air stream this INCREASES the air's compressibility index so can move even more volume at the same deltaP). In addition the PCM will be retarding the cam timing according to the WOT VCT tables which will lower engine dynamic compression at high RPM's thus lower cylinder pressure thus lower potential blow by gasses as well in a NA engine....by design unless a tuner resets the settings in the tune to stop this from happening but I think you'll not appreciate the mid/upper range HP\TQ losses from doing that...……what VCT brought to the overall performance curve of these 3V engines & IMHO shouldn't be disabled if engine usage will involve daily normal street operation…...

Now when talking FI (Roots\TVS blowers only as they still incorporate the full OEM PCV flow design process, centri's & turbos will REQUIRE a check valve to block the DS PCV route off when under boost so CC blow by gasses will revert back thru the PS valve cover anyway) this isn't needed as the Roots/TVS blower is drawing so much more air volume flow thru the CAI\TB intake tract the existing PCV plunger's orifice may not be big enough as the PCV plunger may still be drawn onto it's seat at high RPM's w\ WOT due to high PCV system vacuum thus air flow (especially if the smaller 55mm TB is still being used) thus causing any extra CC blow by gasses to actually revert back thru the PS side valve cover into the CAI upstream of the TB. Most likely is why most FI users have catch cans installed on both sides of the PCV system...…...also why some remove the PCV valve plunger in the DS valve cover as well..…….

Anyway I drove the car today (was too lazy to do it yesterday...….) to test operation under actual driving conditions & can report that all throttle deceleration control has returned to normal w\ this 62mm TB...even w\ car still in motion w\ TB closed & clutch engaged\disengaged. The PCV system flow is now controlled to the point that the MAF signal is now fully & completely following the TB blade angle so the PCM is metering fuel to match so engine will now properly slow down to set idle RPM speed once the injectors are turned back on after engine RPM's drop below 1,000 RPM's on deceleration w\ 62mm TB in full closed position (foot off accel pedal). Prior to this device being installed the engine RPM's would hold at the 1,000 RPM mark while slowing down w\ TB in closed position until car was fully stopped (clutch pedal engaged) at which time the PCM would then pull TB blades to drop the MAF signal to lower engine RPM's to idle set speeds then cut fuel to match the MAF which would cause the engine idle to drop below 700 then PCM would correct back up to the set idle speed. This was due to the excess air volume flow after MAF section bypassing the 62mm TB thru the PCV system. I "fixed" this prior by keeping the engine engaged to the drive train when decelerating using the brakes to slow the engine RPM's down to idle speed then engaging the clutch to stop as the MAF signal will follow the engine RPM's thus the PCM will meter fuel accordingly.

I don't have to do this anymore since installing this device. The 1/8" orifice may actually be overkill to rectify this issue meaning a larger orifice than this 1/8" can solve this issue as well but if I don't find any operational conditions to warrant resizing or removal it's a done deal. The 1 major issue that I can see occurring is potential orifice hydrate (freeze off) in cold weather depending upon conditions until under hood temps rise enough to counter it (tis why some external PCV valves are either coolant heated using engine jacket coolant or electric heated on some make's engine designs....also 1 of the reasons why Ford designed the PCV valve assembly to be a permanent internal design inside the valve cover, FYI).

I'll find this out in a few months as the weather's changing already up here in the Four Corners area...……...
Very good info here I can tell you that. I'm waiting on lito for the next step. One thing I can tell you is the idle NEVER dips when coasting in neutral. It holds at about 900 and when I stop it goes to normal idle. I can only replicate it at a stop..being my last tune before the 62mm TB didn't do this much in thinking it's tune related


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GlassTop09

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Well I can tell you that voltage is good at tb. Throttle body is brand new with all new oem sensors. Pulled pods and tps voltages 1 and 2 correlation are fine. Last tune before the new throttle body was way better and I could almost never get the issue to replicate.
also I'd like to note thay tps voltages 1 and 2 are smooth and never spike when the rpms dip. The voltages go back to normal and the rpms drop.

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Well Teeje, if all the sensor tracking readings are showing normal , linear operation to verify there is no issue w\ any of the ETC's sensor's, wiring or operation then this issue is most likely being set off from within the PCM itself as the PCM controls all of this (the accel pedal sensors only provide driver input desired load % signal, PCM does the rest itself) so if the last tune revision you had prior w\ the old TB was better than what you're experiencing now then you probably need to go back to the old TB & prior tune w\ this PCM.….unless you want to try installing another PCM w\ tune reloaded in to see if this issue stops altogether...………

Tough decision to make considering the low severity of this issue causing loss of driver control of car...…..

If I was in your shoes w\ the same scenario I'd prolly go back to what worked best if Lito can't find any other way to resolve it completely thru the tune w\ new TB installed.

Good luck & hope you can get it fully resolved...…..
 

fdjizm

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Very good info here I can tell you that. I'm waiting on lito for the next step. One thing I can tell you is the idle NEVER dips when coasting in neutral. It holds at about 900 and when I stop it goes to normal idle. I can only replicate it at a stop..being my last tune before the 62mm TB didn't do this much in thinking it's tune related


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I've had this exact thing happen for years and years and with all of my tunes, I've not figured out what it is and neither has anybody else. I don't think it's tune related since it's happened on every tune I've had including Lito's. I've had Bama (both american muscle and the original bama chips), VMP, Brenspeed, BBR, Tillman & now Lito as my final tune.
Every one of them the car still did the idle drop thing when gently revved.

I just learned not to "super gently" rev the car to like 1100 rpm. I've pretty much accepted it and forgotten about it. I guess that's just how my engine is. But other than that it's run great for the last 11 years with no actual engine related problems besides a bad COP a few years ago.
 
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fdjizm

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Yep, this is why I stated in my prior posting that if Ford had designed the PCV valve control section in the DS valve cover to be serviceable then the only item needed would have been to swap out the PCV valve plunger w\ another 1 that has a smaller orifice or use something to plug the existing orifice in the plunger & drill a smaller one to replace it that would have served the same purpose but would open up fully on lowered manifold vacuum signal (normal operation of a PCV valve) thus why I also said in prior posting that a 2nd PCV valve is what is needed w\ a smaller orifice but no one makes 1 that is designed to be taken apart to resize the orifice so this UPR check valve is the only device that I could find that is metal, easily serviceable (can be taken apart & reassembled easily) & uses a sliding plunger type Teflon seat. The spring inside this check valve is not that strong & will easily allow the plunger to move off it's seat w\ a very small vacuum applied but I tested this as well by installing varying amounts of shimming then testing to see how much effort it would take to unseat it & as long as I didn't exceed 2 washer's thickness I could easily unseat the plunger off it's seat & move air thru the 1/8" orifice. In reality probably only needed to use 1 washer anyway......

The main issue as you've noted is whether enough of a vacuum signal still exists at WOT & high RPM's (created from deltaP thru the TB venturi's w\ butterfly blades fully open but I'm not sure if the TB TPS sensor is designed to go to a full 100% open range so the TB blades may be opened to only 86% max....Ford Workshop Manual states that at 96% duty cycle which is max for S197 ETC the TB blades are at 86% actual max open angle...any ETC duty cycle % signal past 96% will trigger limp mode) to keep up w\ the amount of cylinder blow by produced thru this 1\8" orifice since it is a fixed orifice. Using this setup w\ a NA engine I don't foresee an issue since the cylinders are operating within the OEM designed CR index unless this index is changed (by increasing the cylinder CR) or the engine's cylinder walls & piston rings are so worn out creating excessive amounts of blow by gasses. I actually thought about testing for this but to do so I would have to rig up a test port to attach a vacuum gauge upstream of this device to measure the amount of vacuum drop but what would really be needed is an airflow metering device installed to actually measure the amount of actual air volume flow thru PCV system at WOT....which I ain't got so if the FWM data is correct (I can't see why Ford would output bad data in this manual) then there should still be more than enough of a vacuum signal created at high RPM's from the TB plates being less than full open to properly evacuate the CC....even thru this 1/8" orifice...in a NA engine (you'd be surprised at how much actual air volume can be moved thru a small orifice due to the compressibility factor index of air at low deltaP across the orifice due to the gas composition % of the total air stream & if any hydrocarbons (gasses lighter than air) are mixed w\ the air stream this INCREASES the air's compressibility index so can move even more volume at the same deltaP). In addition the PCM will be retarding the cam timing according to the WOT VCT tables which will lower engine dynamic compression at high RPM's thus lower cylinder pressure thus lower potential blow by gasses as well in a NA engine....by design unless a tuner resets the settings in the tune to stop this from happening but I think you'll not appreciate the mid/upper range HP\TQ losses from doing that...……what VCT brought to the overall performance curve of these 3V engines & IMHO shouldn't be disabled if engine usage will involve daily normal street operation…...

Now when talking FI (Roots\TVS blowers only as they still incorporate the full OEM PCV flow design process, centri's & turbos will REQUIRE a check valve to block the DS PCV route off when under boost so CC blow by gasses will revert back thru the PS valve cover anyway) this isn't needed as the Roots/TVS blower is drawing so much more air volume flow thru the CAI\TB intake tract the existing PCV plunger's orifice may not be big enough as the PCV plunger may still be drawn onto it's seat at high RPM's w\ WOT due to high PCV system vacuum thus air flow (especially if the smaller 55mm TB is still being used) thus causing any extra CC blow by gasses to actually revert back thru the PS side valve cover into the CAI upstream of the TB. Most likely is why most FI users have catch cans installed on both sides of the PCV system...…...also why some remove the PCV valve plunger in the DS valve cover as well..…….

Anyway I drove the car today (was too lazy to do it yesterday...….) to test operation under actual driving conditions & can report that all throttle deceleration control has returned to normal w\ this 62mm TB...even w\ car still in motion w\ TB closed & clutch engaged\disengaged. The PCV system flow is now controlled to the point that the MAF signal is now fully & completely following the TB blade angle so the PCM is metering fuel to match so engine will now properly slow down to set idle RPM speed once the injectors are turned back on after engine RPM's drop below 1,000 RPM's on deceleration w\ 62mm TB in full closed position (foot off accel pedal). Prior to this device being installed the engine RPM's would hold at the 1,000 RPM mark while slowing down w\ TB in closed position until car was fully stopped (clutch pedal engaged) at which time the PCM would then pull TB blades to drop the MAF signal to lower engine RPM's to idle set speeds then cut fuel to match the MAF which would cause the engine idle to drop below 700 then PCM would correct back up to the set idle speed. This was due to the excess air volume flow after MAF section bypassing the 62mm TB thru the PCV system. I "fixed" this prior by keeping the engine engaged to the drive train when decelerating using the brakes to slow the engine RPM's down to idle speed then engaging the clutch to stop as the MAF signal will follow the engine RPM's thus the PCM will meter fuel accordingly.

I don't have to do this anymore since installing this device. The 1/8" orifice may actually be overkill to rectify this issue meaning a larger orifice than this 1/8" can solve this issue as well but if I don't find any operational conditions to warrant resizing or removal it's a done deal. The 1 major issue that I can see occurring is potential orifice hydrate (freeze off) in cold weather depending upon conditions until under hood temps rise enough to counter it (tis why some external PCV valves are either coolant heated using engine jacket coolant or electric heated on some make's engine designs....also 1 of the reasons why Ford designed the PCV valve assembly to be a permanent internal design inside the valve cover, FYI).

I'll find this out in a few months as the weather's changing already up here in the Four Corners area...……...

great info, I want to try this now!!

I made this vid back in 2014... I even bought a 3/8 one way fitting just because of this thread but haven't tried it yet.
 

MrAwesome987

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I've had this exact thing happen for years and years and with all of my tunes, I've not figured out what it is and neither has anybody else. I don't think it's tune related since it's happened on every tune I've had including Lito's. I've had Bama (both american muscle and the original bama chips), VMP, Brenspeed, BBR, Tillman & now Lito as my final tune.
Every one of them the car still did the idle drop thing when gently revved.
Mine also does the same thing, but almost all of the times it does it, the AC is on.
 

teeje

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I never have issues when coming to a stop or with the AC on thankfully. So makes me believe it's the tune.


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07 Boss

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Sorry I don’t have a picture or sketch of the PCV loop on a 3 valve. I do have a simple test for you. Open the hood and start the engine. With the engine idling pull the hose off of the passenger side valve cover. Put you finger over the tube sticking out of the valve cover and you will feel it drawing air into the engine. That’s the air leak I am referring to. Your idle will probably change as you plug and unplug that valve cover tube. What happens is air goes in the engine through the passenger valve cover and out the drivers valve cover, through the catch can and into the manifold. It bypasses the throttle body so the engine hunts to control the idle. A check valve stops that and you will have less oil drawn into the catch can because the airflow is reduced. Win, Win.

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teeje

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I flashed my last tune I had with my stock TB and the rpms don't dip at all but it does stay high for a second before returning to idle (about 1000 rpm) for reference this was tune 15. Tune 15 is all FBO and stock throttle body. Tune 15 was a revision that was done when my stock tb was going bad (tps signal 1/2 correlation out of sync) this tune was just to get it running good enough. Tune 16 which I just flashed was the very first tune we did for the new TB.. And the rpm drop is terrible on that tune. I'm on revision 23-2 flashed 22 and it seems to be better. Changing the 02 sensors with ntk 22060s and the fuel rail pressure sensor probably helped. I should have flashed different tunes from the get go to see which is better but oh well. So being that my tune with all my mods except the 62mm TB doesn't dip at ALL but holds at about 1000 for a second makes me believe it's definitely the tune. I get no surging, or idle dip at all even with the AC on.


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teeje

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Update. I just flashed tune 14 which was my last tune I ran for a year with no problems with all my mods except the 62mm TB and everything is fine other than it holding rpms when neutral coasting. I messaged lito. Will update when I hear back

Edit : adding video link


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MrAwesome987

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Totally off subject... But do the 2010/2011+ steering wheel buttons work with 2005 - 2009 cars somehow?
 

teeje

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Totally off subject... But do the 2010/2011+ steering wheel buttons work with 2005 - 2009 cars somehow?
Yes sir. Wiring is not hard to do. You need two wpt-440s (harnesses thay plug into the clock spring) and a pac swi rc module. Let me find the thread for you...hang on


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teeje

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Yes sir. Wiring is not hard to do. You need two wpt-440s (harnesses thay plug into the clock spring) and a pac swi rc module. Let me find the thread for you...hang on


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Here's the link. It is not hard to do at all. Just pay attention to the instructions

2010+ door panels work just fine too with some modification.
These are from a 2014 gtcs
dc5d3cf09666841368fdeb5d16bde74f.jpg



https://mustangforums.com/forum/200...and-have-fully-functional-audio-controls.html


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teeje

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Well I got my response from Lito about 5-6 months ago with one test tune from a different car in between. We seemed to have sorted it all out besides a slight up rev sometimes after revving which I guess I can live with. However I am not able to get a response from Lito. Has anyone heard from him lately? Again been about 6 months since we’ve had an actual conversation. We were about to remote log and I needed my decel pop tune back as well.


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Rick Simons

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Having the crankcase under a slight negative pressure helps reduce pumping losses, but the original intent of the PCV system was to reduce emissions via blow-by.
 

teeje

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My last email from him was on the 17th.
Hm, weird. I am still unable to get a response. I’ve even started a new ticket.. I’m not having major issues but we got it very close. It no longer dips down but it does rev up a few hundred rpms after returning to idle then goes back down. It does this when I stop also. I just want a response because I know this very small issue can be fixed in the tune.


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