mods vs miles

[thump_rrr]

I'll give you a little background with my experience modding my car.
I bought it in 05 brand new. I picked it up on Thursday night from the dealership and on Saturday morning it ran 13.65 in the 1/4 mile.
All that summer the modding began and before the car was put away for winter it ran 12.67 on stock gears with a few bolt-ons.
I saw JDM's red Saleen car that August at Fun Ford Weekend in Epping NH.
I spent the next year doing research and decided to get a Saleen blower setup.
I didn't want to screw around so I did the GT500 dual fuel pump setup at the same time.
At the time 450rwhp was accepted as the limit with stock internals.
I installed the blower setup, fuel system and JDM canned tune and started the car for the first time and it seemed to run perfectly without going WOT.
I brought the car to the track on a Friday night and half way through the first run the car fell flat on its face. I pull into the pits and start checking everything when it hit me that I didn't plug in the 2nd FPDM.
I plug in the FPDM and the car runs 11.95.

I'm also having issues keeping belts on the car and keep breaking tensioners.
The next day I go back to the track and run 11.69.
This is all on a canned start-up tune.
November 3rd 2006 JDM rented Englishtown for JDM day.
I drove down there with 4 belts and 3 tensioners.
After 2 broken tensioners I ran a clean 11.69 and Jim Sr upon watching the car run asked me for my tuner and added another degree of timing.
On my final run the car ran [email protected].
The car ran that canned tune for another year till the summer of 2007 when I swapped the pulley down to a 3.2" and had JDM dyno tune the car at exactly 500rwhp.

At that time Jim SR told me to start thinking about building the motor.
Since I kept having belt issues my cousin and I along with some input from Ron (94tbird) developed the Thump_rrr billet tensioner.
Once the tensioner was built the car was being run down the track approximately 40-60 times a week never being trailered.
The following year I installed the Saleen intake with bigger MAF, 60lb injectors, GT500 TB and I ported the interior of the blower. I dropped the pulley size down to 2.95" and went back to JDM for another tune.
The car put down 543RWHP@499RWTQ on pump gas and Jim SR once again strongly recommended building a motor.
The car is still in the same configuration till this day.

There are those who said it wouldn't last at 450 others who said it wouldn't last at 500 and others who still say it shouldn't be running at 543.
If the car blows up tomorrow the engine doesn't owe me a penny.
I still believe there is still a safety factor built into that tune judging by how rich it seems up top, 11.0 A/F ratio.

 

[07TGGT]

Sarcasm on the internet is such a waste of time. Much like trying to debate anything with you. But that's ok. At least your profanity was toned down a little in this response. Check out this link:

http://www.ehow.com/way_6106620_much-mustang-gt-motor-handle_.html

I copied and pasted the most relevent paragrah below. I have done countless hours of research on this matter since I was very interested in modding my 07 GT and 450 RWHP seems to be the most popular answer to the question of how much power can a stock 3V motor handle. Think there is a reason for that?

[FONT=lev_serifhandcut]RPM vs. Boost[/FONT]
o The 2005 Mod motor is limited by its connecting rods, which can withstand only about 6,500 RPM (perhaps 7,000 for short periods). If you're planning to make big power on a stock block, you're better off installing a bolt-on supercharger or turbo system than trying to rev the thing to death. Boost pressure puts more pressure on the pistons but puts far less pressure on the connecting rods. Ford actually engineered the engine to save would-be hot-rodders from themselves; while the heads are more than capable of carrying increased RPM, the valve springs will lose their ability to keep up at around 7,000. A good rule of thumb is that if you have to replace the valve springs, then you'd be wise to do the connecting rods as well. Get the best you can afford, and don't worry about weight; you'll be happier with forged rods that don't explode than aluminum ones that do. About 400 to 450 horsepower is generally acknowledged as the upper limit for a boosted setup on a completely stock motor. You'll need lower-compression pistons to get above that, anyway.

But yet you keep replying to me lol. Show me something I haven't read multiple times. Everyone who has listened and watched those who've been through the loops knows the rods are the weakest link. Have anything better to show?

Oh look at the post above mine...

 

[darrens07gt]

But yet you keep replying to me lol. Show me something I haven't read multiple times. Everyone who has listened and watched those who've been through the loops knows the rods are the weakest link. Have anything better to show?

Oh look at the post above mine...

The point is that you have shown me nothing other than your ability to be immature. Like I said before, this is not an exact science. For every person who has had success with 500+ RWHP there is another (if not two) that has a destroyed motor or transmission. The key word I like to use when giving my opinion on how much power any given motor or transmission can handle is "reliable".

All my research and inquiry's have indicated that the most a stock 3V can handle reliably is 450 RWHP. That doesn't mean you can't run 500 or even 550 RWHP through it. It just means that I wouldn't consider that car to be reliable and would make sure I had both another car to drive and towing insurance.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[07TGGT]

Reliability is a relative term. It's like many here say, it's all dependent on the setup(suspension, tires, tune, etc.), conditions and the DRIVER.

 

[darrens07gt]

Reliability is a relative term. It's like many here say, it's all dependent on the setup(suspension, tires, tune, etc.), conditions and the DRIVER.

Absolutely. Not over reving the motor and having a more conservative tune will definately increase your chances of getting longer life out of the motor. We both agree on that. But I would still feel very uncomfortable running 500 RWHP through a stock 3V and stock TR3650 if it was my daily driver or if I didn't have the money on hand to replace either if they broke.

 

[Bingo]

You could have a 600 HP motor last forever if you never actually hit peak horsepower.

 

[marcspaz]

That's true, but seems hard not to tempt fate. That's why my last 4.6L engine was built to take 1,000 HP, but I was running NA at 400 HP. As long as I wasn't an ass with revs and aggressive timing, that engine could have lasted forever. I think Dallas is still racing with it, and he bought it from me 5 years ago.

In my mind, I am thinking things that kill engines, in order... poor timing, poor AFR, revs, bad fuel, torque, horsepower, and driver/owner abuse.

The driver abuse can be unintentional, too. Which is the worst. I have real-time Tq and Hp gauges in my SRT. If I am cruising around in 4th gear at 45 mph (about 3k rpm) and I go to half throttle, I only make about 90-95 HP, but my torque rockets over 335 lbs. By the time I get to 4.5k, its making over 440 lbs of torque. Even though its making all that power, it doesn't feel like it due to the lower revs. I would be willing to guess many folks don't realize how much they are really pushing their cars, even when it seems like they aren't driving too hard.

 

[thump_rrr]

The point is that you have shown me nothing other than your ability to be immature. Like I said before, this is not an exact science. For every person who has had success with 500+ RWHP there is another (if not two) that has a destroyed motor or transmission. The key word I like to use when giving my opinion on how much power any given motor or transmission can handle is "reliable".

All my research and inquiry's have indicated that the most a stock 3V can handle reliably is 450 RWHP. That doesn't mean you can't run 500 or even 550 RWHP through it. It just means that I wouldn't consider that car to be reliable and would make sure I had both another car to drive and towing insurance.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

There have been guys who have trashed 3v's in stock form doing high speed runs.
There are guys who have built bulletproof motors only to shatter the oil pump gears trashing those "bulletproof" motors.
There is a guy here locally who blew up a Roush at around 400rwhp.
His buddy had a nice factory Saleen blower car that couldn't come close to me at the track.
I spoke to him at the track and told him that JDM tuned my car and at that time I was only running a canned tune and my motor was stock.
The next day I got calls from 2 different race shops that I know telling me that the guy with the Saleen called them asking if they knew my car and if it had engine work done to it.
He ended up trailering the car to JDM for tuning.

Now let's look at the flip side of things.
There are guys running 800rwhp through 8.8" differentials while I was never able to get more than 1-1/2 years out of an 8.8" without a complete rebuild.
I went to a 9" to solve my problems and to this day there are those who tell me that an 8.8" is more than capable of handling the power my car makes.

It is all up to the individual owner to decide what risks he or she are willing to take.

 

[darrens07gt]

There have been guys who have trashed 3v's in stock form doing high speed runs.
There are guys who have built bulletproof motors only to shatter the oil pump gears trashing those "bulletproof" motors.
There is a guy here locally who blew up a Roush at around 400rwhp.
His buddy had a nice factory Saleen blower car that couldn't come close to me at the track.
I spoke to him at the track and told him that JDM tuned my car and at that time I was only running a canned tune and my motor was stock.
The next day I got calls from 2 different race shops that I know telling me that the guy with the Saleen called them asking if they knew my car and if it had engine work done to it.
He ended up trailering the car to JDM for tuning.

Now let's look at the flip side of things.
There are guys running 800rwhp through 8.8" differentials while I was never able to get more than 1-1/2 years out of an 8.8" without a complete rebuild.
I went to a 9" to solve my problems and to this day there are those who tell me that an 8.8" is more than capable of handling the power my car makes.

It is all up to the individual owner to decide what risks he or she are willing to take.

There are guys who trashed stock 4.6's just changing the spark plugs

But I see your points.

 

[mach828]

Agree with thump. Most people don't blow up their cars because they simply exceeded the limits of the stock rods due to too much safe hp.

The people who blow their cars up usually have some sort of mechanical failure (like a fuel pump, alt, etc.), a tune issue (detonation), fuel issue (detonation), lack of maintenance, or they abuse the car in a manner that leads to catastrophic engine failure (like back to back 150mph pulls with scorching IATs and excessive timing).

I just think its a lot easier for people to blame the engine's limits being exceeded then to diagnose the real issue. There is no way to isolate all the potential causes of failure to say its always the rods over 450hp...I won't believe it until I see stress test results in a controlled environment, which will never happen. Unless we get an engineer with the right equipment who wants to buy a set of stock rods and test them.

 

[D1984]

you guys don't know how easy you have it. i come from the BMW world where my 540i needed constant attention at stock power levels. how would you like to keep replacing gaskets and cooling system parts religiously only to have a $3500 timing chain guide (not the cost of the guides, mostly labor. over 20 shop hours) failure pop up out of nowhere? BMW...never again

 

[darrens07gt]

Agree with thump. Most people don't blow up their cars because they simply exceeded the limits of the stock rods due to too much safe hp.

The people who blow their cars up usually have some sort of mechanical failure (like a fuel pump, alt, etc.), a tune issue (detonation), fuel issue (detonation), lack of maintenance, or they abuse the car in a manner that leads to catastrophic engine failure (like back to back 150mph pulls with scorching IATs and excessive timing).

I just think its a lot easier for people to blame the engine's limits being exceeded then to diagnose the real issue. There is no way to isolate all the potential causes of failure to say its always the rods over 450hp...I won't believe it until I see stress test results in a controlled environment, which will never happen. Unless we get an engineer with the right equipment who wants to buy a set of stock rods and test them.

There are obviously limits to any motor. I don't think anyone in there right mind would push 1,000 RWHP through a stock 3V and expect it to survive. And on the other hand there isn't anyone here that would push 350-400 RWHP through a stock 3V and not fully expect it to handle that power with great reliability.

So where is the tipping point? At what RWHP level does the reliability take a nose dive? Some say 400, some say 450, some say 500 some even say 550+. But if you polled 100 non-biased people (or read 100 threads on the subject) you find that the most popular answer is 450 RWHP.

I'm not saying that the engine blows up at 451 RWHP. Not at all. If you get a good tune, keep up with regular maintenance, keep the shift points reasonable and don't make every acceleration a WOT run then I see how some 450-550 WHP 3V's can still be running even after a few years at that power level. But then you are still at the mercy of luck and fate. Because for every 500 RWHP stock 3V that lived a long life there is at least one that didn't last as long as the owner had hoped even though they did everything else right.

So IMO 450 RWHP isn't when the motor blows up. 450 RWHP is when the reliability starts to go down. So to anyone that has a 500 RWHP 3V has lasted 5 years I say that's awesome and I hope they get another 5 years out of it. To anyone who has had a 500 RWHP 3V last 5 weeks I say that sucks and they probably should forge thier next motor if they want to stay on the ceiling side of the 3V's power limits.

 

[Docktour Z]

Oh, and the OP is a fucking douchebag liar and thief who tried to rip me off several years ago. Who gives a fuck what he does with his POS car?

Let me know when you want to settle this, we live in the same area so meeting up won't be too hard now will it?


To the others actually contributing I appreciate the anecdotal and technical evidence. It is making the decision to methodically modify the car much more appealing rather than bolting on a centri and crossing 10 fingers. Back in my younger days when I had just began turning up the boost wick on my previous car I definitely pushed the car harder than most and it managed to take everything I could throw at it. Currently the mustang is treated well (this past weekend she got a complete fluid change sans rear differential fluid which I didn't feel comfortable doing).

My concerns currently:
Sitting at 100k miles I still have what I believe to be the stock plugs (I bought the car with 20k on it).
The springs are Eibach (less aggressive drop) and I believe my struts/shocks need to be tended to.
I have no oil-catch can on the engine.
When taking off cold the rear-end exhibits a shuddering feeling when first beginning to accelerate (I am guessing the rear-diff needs attention).
My driver side carpet gets wet when I wash the car and the clutch pedal has become rusted (just discovered and I did check the plugs in the drip tray and the door jams are free of obstructions).
The clutch feels as if I am loosing pedal travel. Is that indicative of needing a new clutch because of wearing down?

Once I alleviate these concerns I plan on buying a second mode of transport (SuperMoto or an FZ-07 for a first bike).

At that time I will need to make up my mind for centrifugal or PD blower (leaning towards centrifugal because of the linear power delivery alleviating stress on the rods down low). I will run it on the stock motor at < 10 psi and make 400-425 whp and live there until I have saved enough capital to correctly build the car (I want to do this myself and teach myself how to do this).

 

[thump_rrr]

Let me know when you want to settle this, we live in the same area so meeting up won't be too hard now will it?


To the others actually contributing I appreciate the anecdotal and technical evidence. It is making the decision to methodically modify the car much more appealing rather than bolting on a centri and crossing 10 fingers. Back in my younger days when I had just began turning up the boost wick on my previous car I definitely pushed the car harder than most and it managed to take everything I could throw at it. Currently the mustang is treated well (this past weekend she got a complete fluid change sans rear differential fluid which I didn't feel comfortable doing).

My concerns currently:
Sitting at 100k miles I still have what I believe to be the stock plugs (I bought the car with 20k on it).
The springs are Eibach (less aggressive drop) and I believe my struts/shocks need to be tended to.
I have no oil-catch can on the engine.
When taking off cold the rear-end exhibits a shuddering feeling when first beginning to accelerate (I am guessing the rear-diff needs attention).
My driver side carpet gets wet when I wash the car and the clutch pedal has become rusted (just discovered and I did check the plugs in the drip tray and the door jams are free of obstructions).
The clutch feels as if I am loosing pedal travel. Is that indicative of needing a new clutch because of wearing down?

Once I alleviate these concerns I plan on buying a second mode of transport (SuperMoto or an FZ-07 for a first bike).

At that time I will need to make up my mind for centrifugal or PD blower (leaning towards centrifugal because of the linear power delivery alleviating stress on the rods down low). I will run it on the stock motor at < 10 psi and make 400-425 whp and live there until I have saved enough capital to correctly build the car (I want to do this myself and teach myself how to do this).

You see I already have the power adder and supporting mods and a hell of a lot of money tied into my car and even though I bought the shortblock, timing kit, rocker and lifter kit, oil pump, and ARP hardware I'm still debating on how much more money I want to throw into this project.
Not because I see any issues but when I look at how much more power I can make if I bought myself a coyote or S-550.

As much as I love my car if it was completely stock there would be a new S-550 or in the future a GT350 in my driveway. I think the looks of it are starting to grow on me.

 

[Docktour Z]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I picked up a 2012 grabber blue 5.0 for 25k with 18k miles tonight. These coyotes love to stretch those legs.

 

[TRC51]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I picked up a 2012 grabber blue 5.0 for 25k with 18k miles tonight. These coyotes love to stretch those legs.

Congrats!

 

[Docktour Z]

Thanks man. Feels good to now have those headaches.

 

[johnnyv8]

:worth:

 

[Docktour Z]

:worth:

I am waiting on the springs and wheels. Wheels will be on tonight...I am also removing some of the stripes and other poor cosmetic choices. I don't want a bad first impression.

 

[808muscle]

I love thump rrr's story. 2600 passes....awesome. I have 400+ passes and about 425 rwhp. Car runs as consistant now as it did when I first added the blower 4.5 years ago. The only part to fail was the stock rear end.