My 2005 GT, soon to run TTD

[RichV]

Got to drive my 05 for the 1st time other than the test drive.

Put about 60 miles on it today. 1st S197 impressions:

stock shifter - sucketh, feels like rowing a boat
stock brakes - feel decent, except for the slotted/drilled rotors, not used to the feel of those on the pedal
stock springs - a little squishy, I think they are stock
stock shocks - same as springs

Power feels good above 3-3500, pulls strong. Has some sort of SLP type resonator tips, no mufflers. K&N FIPK, stock motor, trans, and rear end. Not sure of the ratio.

I don't have a lot of points to play with, with the current mods, and the fact that this GT already has a 14 point head start, I have probably 5 points to play with to stay TTD.

Ideally, I want to do tires (r-comps), springs, shocks, and a tuner of some sort. The BAMA seems to be a popular choice and the price is decent. But all these mods may be very close to my limit, if not above. Probably going to need some decent track pads as well, Carbotechs or HAWK would be my choice. Didn't care for EBC in the race compound too much.

Any of you guys have any suggestions on parts? I come from the Fox world where EVERYTHING needs to be upgraded, think the S197 is a much better chassis and looking forward to learning the mods, and how to drive it.

 

[NoTicket]

I would guess that most mods will kick you out of TTD.

Everything may FEEL squishy, but it is likely good enough.

Get some Carbotechs or Raybestos ST-43 or Hawk DTC-60 pads, toss the slotted and drilled rotors and put back in some standard vented rotors. Toss in high temp fluids and stainless brake lines.

Put as much tire on as you can.

I am sure this is close to the limit of what you can do with 5 points. I would be surprised if 100 treadwear and below would still leave you in TTD.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

As a quick breakdown on tires:

TTD has a "spec" tire size of 245mm, which is really a kick in the ass for heavier cars like the S197. If you run 255, then +1 point, 265, +4, 275, +7 and 285 costs +10 points.

"Street tires" with a UTQG of 200 down to 140, inclusive, will cost you +2 points.
Entry-level R-compounds (Toyo RA-1, R888, Nitto NT-01) will cost you +7 points.
Hoosier R6 will cost you +10 points
Hoosier A6 (And BFG R1S) will cost you +13 points
BFG R1S and Hoosier Wets (used in the dry) will cost you +15 points
True race slicks (NON-DOT) will cost you +30

We all know that compound trumps all, followed closely by tire width. If you're determined to stay in TTD (which isn't going to be easy, fun, or competitive), then you're limited to street tires, and unfortunately, there's no pairing of compound and width to max out on points with only 5 to spend. You could do 265mm street rubber (UTQG over 200) and a CAI and re-flash, OR you could do 255mm sticky street rubber (RS-3 or something like that) and a CAI/flash, but that's about it.

Now, run down the "free mods list" and start checking boxes...

Section I, Part B:

2) Lightweight battery
3) Air bag removal
5) jack and spare tire removal (maybe, maybe not, depending on weight distribution!)
6) A/C system delete, replacement with idler pully is legal no-points.
7) Lexan windshield/rear window (not if you live in a sandy area!)

Section I, Part C:

1) Fuel: Retail E-85 is permitted. PITA, but you can tune to make max power for no points, so... Watch out for the class cap of 14.25:1 though. At 3450lbs, that means a MAX RWHP of 242HP.
7) ECU re-flash. Regardless of anything else, get your throttle map dialled in!

Section I, Part D:

2) Lightweight clutch assembly, flywheel, and driveshaft
4) Any final drive ratio change is legal

Section I, Part E:

1) Camber/Caster plates are legal for no points, and you'll need them!
3) All bushings may be replaced with any non-metallic non-spherical parts. Front LCA Delrin bushings would be good here. As would poly PHB bushings. Keep all the arms and the PHB stock.

Section I, part F:

1) Rotors and pads may be changed (same diameter). Go with plain-face rotors, NOT drilled/scalloped/slotted/fishooked, etc.
2) This is an interesting one.. Pricy, but you CAN run the FR500C power booster, which will REALLY increase your brake feel at threshold. Braided lines are a good idea if for no other reason than to deal with track "klag." You know what I'm talking about, I'm sure.
3) Duct the fronts!!! however you want to set it up, use AT LEAST 3" ducts to the center of the rotor, possibly a second duct line blowing on the backside of the caliper as well. The fronts will get HOT!!!
5) Remove emergency brake handle and cables.
7) Seam welding the chassis really isn't needed if you're not running R-comps or slicks, but if you have a mind to, feel free.

Section I, part H:

4) delete outside mirrors, add eyeball spot mirrors. Aero drag you don't need!
5) Replace the shifter with something usable! I use the MGW, but the PRO-5.0 and Steeda Tri-Ax are also nice. Any are better than stock!
7) lightweight race seat. The stocker sucks, but watch out for belt issues.
8) delete passenger seat
12) Again pricy, but you can substitute the FR500C quick-ratio rack if you want.
14) remove the foglights and replace with light acryllic or aluminum block-offs.
19) Hood pins (aerocatch) are lighter than the stock latch, cable, handle setup.

Once you're done with all that, weigh the car, with you in it and a splash of fuel, and compare to to the listed base weight of 3450lbs. You can legally go to 3445, since points begin with the words "greater than..." but you want to do everything you can to get to or below minimum weight. You don't get points back for being heavy...

IF you're 50lbs or so under minimum weight (yeah, right...), then rejoice and immediately order a 4-point rollbar and a good set of harnesses! If you're still heavy, either go on a diet, or start getting creative about what you strip off the car...

Now, assuming you're right at min weight, get the car on a set of scales, and start moving weight around. I(H)4 allows you to relocate the battery, for example, but factor in the weight of the extra battery cable. If you have the weight "budget," you can add a cool-suit setup to the car, and mount the cooler (around 10lbs loaded) wherever is best for the weight. You WILL start nose-heavy, and left-side biased, so anything you can pull from the left-front and relocate to the right rear is a step in the right direction.

All the above assumes you're serious about competing in TTD, rather than just finding a class to go have fun with. Realize that your base class is the same as an '03 Honda S2000, with a min weight of 2650, and that you'll also be in the same class as a fully-prepped SM and 944SPEC, both on Toyo RR rubber, and you'll get an idea of what you'll be up against. The venerable FOX chassis starts in TTE at 3075, so you can imagine what could be build with 39 points to play with there...

If you want to WIN, though, I would suggest looking really hard at the rules and building to the rule book. You may find you have more success maxing out the rules in TTC than you do in TTD. the extra 20pts give you a LOT of wiggle room on tire compound, width, and weight to play with. Oh, and a 12:1 weight-to-power ratio (287 RWHP at 3450).

Hope that helps!

 

[Mustang Mark]

Glad to see you made it over from sn95forums.

 

[RichV]

Thanks for the link Mark!

LOL Dave, spoken like a true competitor. Great info.

Step one I'm getting this sucker on the scales. Once the weather gives in a little and I can move my CMC car out of the garage. The big reason I want to stay TTD is I have a buddy with a 2000 GT that will get up to TTD as well. We've always battled it out on some sort of tarmac. I'm not quite ready to give up street-ability yet. I already have the race car to abuse if I need to.

Hoping to get the classing and points matrix done this weekend to get an idea of where I really am with this 05. But I got a CMC meeting to get to...

 

[RichV]

Update:

Have done 2 events this season. Still doing instructor training. Proving to be more involved than I thought. A good thing, learning a lot other than driving.

On TTD, have been doing well. 1st event beat out a STi on lap times. 2nd event tok home a HAWK certificate for $100, and had the fastest lap of the weekend. Not too many competitors, usually at least 3. Really happy with a stock 05 with Brembo wheels and Pzero tires.

 

[Houstonnw]

What did you end up using your points on?

I also wanted to stay in TTD as we do not have many TTC cars here in Texas. However I wanted to keep the car comfortable on the street, so severe weight reduction was not of interest to me. Greg gave me the following dyno reclass for the stock HP:

Your '06 Ford Mustang GT with a maximum 265 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a Minimum Competition Weight (w/driver) of 3580 lbs, will have a new PT/TT base class of PTD*/TTD* (seven points). Your new base tire size is 245mm. You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '06 Ford Mustang GT must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet HP and Minimum Competition Weight during any tech. inspection.

This option may only be used with a PTD/TTD or higher Final Competition Class.

So I am thinking springs (+2), shocks (+3), and one of the following tires for (+7):

The following DOT-approved R-compound tires and those with a UTQG treadwear rating of 50 to 130: Maxxis RC-1 (ex. Kumho V700, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888, Toyo RA-1, Yokahama A048, etc.)

Any suggestions from anyone?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

For springs and shocks, yes, absolutely! Obvously, get the best ones you can (AST, MCS, etc) and stay within your points window. No points difference between those and Monroe SensaTrac, so you're better off getting the maximum bang for your buck/point.

Tires: Within that points class, the stickier the better. Also look at contingencies, as well, for when you do pull off a class win. Maxxis has a program (never run them) as does Toyo, for the R888 and RA-1. Of the two, the R888 seems to grease up pretty quickly, and I can't say how the ultimate grip compares to an RA-1. I've heard a lot of good things about the V700, though... The Michelin tires grip like crazy (ran them on a buddies M3), but IIRC, they are uber-expensive. I think testing is in order here! If I had to throw out a hard suggestion, it would probably be to go with the V700 or the Michelin PSC. I'm just not that crazy about the Toyo rubber (same as Nitto), although the RR is actually halfway decent. Sort of like a "half-dead" Hoosier R6.

 

[Houstonnw]

Thanks Dave, and I didn't plan to post it here, not expecting a response, but I do have one more option:

Your '06 Ford Mustang GT with a maximum 265 rwhp on a Dynojet, and a Minimum Competition Weight (w/driver) of 3725 lbs, will have a new PT/TT base class of PTD/TTD. Your new base tire size is 245mm. You will not assess modification points for Section B. Weight Reduction or Section C. Engine Mods. However, all other modifications, including transmission and LSD, that are not standard items on a base trim '06 Ford Mustang GT must be assessed points. You must be compliant with the above listed maximum Dynojet HP and Minimum Competition Weight during any tech. inspection.

So, now i have another 7 points, can you say Hoosier A6 with another 160 lbs? Is that not tempting?

And edit to add, I have contacted AST and Vorshlag to continue offering their double digressive shocks. I can't imagine a better track/street compromise.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

That IS tempting. You'd have to do the testing to really determine whether the 160lbs is too much of a handicap on those "skinny" 245mm tires, though. Even if the tire grips like velcro, there is going to be a point of diminishing returns simply based on weight. You may find that you're faster on a "lesser" tire when lighter. With the "lesser" tire, you're giving some up in the cornering, but that's a LOT of weight that will penalize you on corner exit (power/weight ratio), as well as a lot of kinetic energy to try to make turn and slow... Weight kills you everywhere, rubber only kills you in the corners. Again, this is something that's going to take some testing.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I never saw the link but I assume you found this: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_classification.pdf

And the base classing was supposed be TTD** (which means TTD +14 base penalty points), according to this (see page 19-20) in the 2014 rules.

And your buddy's 2000 GT would be TTE**. But I take if from your posts that you got a dyno-reclass granted and now it goes to straight TTD? No more 14 point penalty? Looks like with a 130 pound addition of weight to the previous class minimum. If so, congrats on the free points!

Make sure to account for anything you have changed or that came as optional from the factory that doesn't match up exactly with the "base 2005 GT" as Greg has classed it for TTD. On my 2011 GT when I ran it in TTB I had to take 4 points for "non-stock aero" because I didn't have the one GT wing that came in the default Mustang GT package. My spoiler delete was the same points as the giant wing we now run in TT3!

Yes, it was a factory option to delete the spoiler, but they don't class the options, they class the base GT package. Just be mindful to count all of your points.

I'm amazed that the 2005-06 V8 GTs started off in TTD (or TTD**), as the 2007-2009 is TTC but -100 pounds and the 2010 GT is TTC +100 pounds. And then the 2011-14 GT is in TTB! Confusing...

------

When making TT upgrades based on points it is hard to beat the basics, which are what others here have suggested:

1. Springs (obviously coilover spring rates, on one of the below shocks)
2. Shocks (MCS TT1 or TT2 or AST 4150)
3. Tire Compound

We've seen that it is more worthwhile to use your points on a Hoosier A6 compound than added tire width - to an extent. We've seen a rash of TTB drivers in our region move from a 275 R6 to a 246 A6, and go significantly faster... Of course with 3580 pounds minimum weight it is going to be hard to get a 245mm A6 to last a full weekend. It might be prudent to spend some points on +20mm, at the very least, if not +30mm to a 275mm tire.

If you go to a 245 A6 just be extremely cautions of tire temps and degredation. You might make a full weekend if you only take one hot lap per session, and only run in the earlier/cooler sessions. The Hoosier A6 is fast but its kind of a pain in the ass to race on. Just be prepared for a lot of this...

We typically run at least 2 different sets of tires in a NASA TT weekend. I'll start out with the Saturday TT practice session on Saturday on a set of scrubs from the previous race, just to get a good spot on grid. Usually take 3-4 laps, to get a feel for the track - assuming I know this track layout well. If we come on Friday for a test-n-tune to a new track or to test a new set-up we might bring a third set of sacrificial tires - sometimes an R6 set.

Then for the first timed session on Saturday we switch to a brand new sticker set of A6s to lay down one lap, which is usually my best time of the day. Then, if we want to take more laps (or let my wife drive on our team entry) we switch back to the used scrubs for later sessions that day - that are always slower, due to climbing ambient/track temps. Then back to the sticker set for Sunday's first session, then normally we pack it up and wait/watch (or my wife goes out on what's left of "new" these tires). I'll only go back out if there is somebody close.

When you play the Hoosier A6 game get ready for stacks and stacks of used scrub tires and large tire bills

Again - I'm not encouraging people to run a Hoosier A6. It is a ludicrous waste of money, so unless you are rich -or- winning a set every NASA weekend (takes 5 cars in class to win 2 tires per day for 1st), think twice about the A6 option. An R6, or Kumho V710, or BFG R-1 are all much longer wearing tires and each one is about a second two or so slower, and you can run more than 1-2 laps without huge lap time penalties. The Maxxis is another option with an attractive tire contingency, but it is slower. One of my main TT3 competitors was on the new Maxxis tire at our last NASA event and was fully 6 seconds back, whereas when he's on new A6s he is usually more like 1-2 seconds back. So...

And edit to add, I have contacted AST and Vorshlag to continue offering their double digressive shocks. I can't imagine a better track/street compromise.

We're working with the new AST distributor to get our dealership reestablished. They don't foresee any stock until July 2014, at the soonest. One thing to note: AST prices went up significantly in this re-org and the 4150 is going to cost the same as the MCS TT1, about $2650.



For the maximum performance in TT with the least number of points, the MCS TT2 (internal double adjustable - no remotes) is the hot set-up. We are selling a ton of these to NASA TT racers in lettered classes. Both the TT1 and TT2 have a thicker wall strut housings than the comparable AST model, and could be stronger in the long run. But any of these will work very well, and the AST 4150 has a slightly more digressive rebound curve, and might ride a tick better on the street. The mythical "4250" AST internal double doesn't exist and likely never will, so if you want the doubles you are limited to MCS - among these two monotube adjustable brands.

Good luck, and we're working on your AST 4150 order.

 

[jbido]

wow. Great Info.

 

[Falkwa]

so much for me trying to race any this year lol.. not sure i can come close to affording it.