No start after dissambly of timing components

[BruceH]

It finally happened. I changed something on the car and now have a no start condition.

I removed lockouts from the phasers and installed limiters. It's a fairly simple operation that I've done before. I didn't notice anything really odd during the swap.

After the swap I had a no start condition. Steps taken to correct it were heating the garage, disassembling the cam drive taking the chains off and retiming.

Still have a no start condition. Tried starting fluid and saw backfires in the intake. Seeing that makes me almost certain that something happened when I put the phasers back on or that I somehow messed some part of the phaser that triggers the sensor.

At this point the only thing I can think to do is to disassemble again except this time to remover the phasers from the cams and inspect everything.

When it turns over it sounds like the valves actuation is out of whack. It just burbles. A spark plug attached to a coil will spark when the motor is turning over. This tells me that the sensing circuitry is operating and delivering spark.

Either the spark is out of time or the cams are out of time with the crank. That's all I can come up with.

Has anyone had a phaser go onto a cam and torque down but not be located correctly on the cam? There is a locator on the cam and phaser that should make this impossible but maybe I didn't have it completely lined up and the phaser isn't locked into the locating hole? I'm not sure this could even happen without the cam position sensor getting chewed up by the phaser.

Has anyone had something similar happen?

 

[skwerl]

I know it sounds stupid and don't take this wrong, but when you put the chains back on the sprockets did you mistakenly put the right side on the L mark and the left side on the R mark? I know I can sometimes do the most complicated stuff and screw up on something basic.

 

[BruceH]

I know it sounds stupid and don't take this wrong, but when you put the chains back on the sprockets did you mistakenly put the right side on the L mark and the left side on the R mark? I know I can sometimes do the most complicated stuff and screw up on something basic.

Pretty sure I didn't but at this point it would make the most sense. I get to take it all apart again so I'll find out soon enough.

The first time I only took the valve covers off and positions were marked with a marker. The cam spun (due to valve spring tension) when the phaser came off so it took a little bit to get the marks lined up again. Two revolutions of the cam to one of the crank so I suppose it's possible that I had that cam off by half a crank rev?

But I took it all apart after that and retimed the whole thing. Unless I totally screwed it up. It's possible. I'm fairly certain it's something to do with a mechanical alignment.

Now that I think about it I'm almost certain the phaser reluctor or whatever it is that passes by the cam position sensor isn't where it's supposed to be. I can remember seeing it move when I was torqueing the phaser bolt. The cam wasn't moving but for some reason I forgot all about it. I'll bet that reluctor came off of the pins it sits on just enough to change it's position.

 

[BruceH]

Found this. I'm not sure that it would make much difference because the limiters I've installed are only providing about 8.5 degrees of retard.

AFAIK the spring is only there to bring the phasers to 0 degrees.

Edit: The spring hook end should be on a long bolt. It came off and unwound itself. I'll have to figure out how to wind it up.

 

[skwerl]

I had a phaser that the spring sprung like that and I had to replace the phaser. Maybe it was just because I didn't fully understand how it worked but I installed a new one and it worked.

 

[BruceH]

I had a phaser that the spring sprung like that and I had to replace the phaser. Maybe it was just because I didn't fully understand how it worked but I installed a new one and it worked.

It looks like the reluctors aren't positioned correctly. If the Ford manual has a correct representation of how they should be positioned in relation to the sprocket then they are way out.

I'm guessing they were just off of the locating pins when I was fighting to get them on. Then I torqued the phaser bolts and probably bent the crap out of the pins with the reluctor (I can't think of anything else to call it) in the wrong position.

I was hoping something would jump out at me and it just did. I'll take the phasers off and see if this is indeed what happened.

 

[BruceH]

The locating pins sheared off. I just wasn't paying attention. In the past I always make sure they are on the pins but this time I double screwed up.

Phaser bolts have already been ordered. Now I either order phasers or buy some locally.

The good news is I know what caused it and I don't have to tear the motor down any more than this.

The big question is do I order cams at the same time? A set of the Lunati I've been looking at or a set of Hot Rods? Then I can ditch the limiters/lockouts and get the lsa/icl/duration and lift I really want.

 

[stkjock]

Get the cams

 

[KatoS197]

Bruce, I just want to say - thank you. I really appreciate how you take the time, even in threads where you're trying to diagnose a problem on your own car, to be methodical and progressive in your posting. It really makes it educational for guys like me who have a "thousand-foot view" understanding of mechanics, and makes it easier for people to research similar issues.

Oh, and I vote to get the cams, too, since you already have access.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce, I just want to say - thank you. I really appreciate how you take the time, even in threads where you're trying to diagnose a problem on your own car, to be methodical and progressive in your posting. It really makes it educational for guys like me who have a "thousand-foot view" understanding of mechanics, and makes it easier for people to research similar issues.

Oh, and I vote to get the cams, too, since you already have access.

Thanks for that. My intentions for posting weren't as pure, lol. I was hoping someone would chime in with "that happened to me and it was ...".

Once I had it written down it was a whole lot easier to think things through. Sometimes my head will just run the problem around in a circle without any logical thought path.

I ended up ordering a set of Dorman phasers. $115 each with the bolt from Rockauto.com. I think I'll keep my current cams and reinstall the homemade limiters. Hopefully the little bit of extra retard will help with upper rpm airflow.

 

[pics06gtstang]

I ended up ordering a set of Dorman phasers. $115 each with the bolt from Rockauto.com. I think I'll keep my current cams and reinstall the homemade limiters. Hopefully the little bit of extra retard will help with upper rpm airflow.

IMO , stay the hell away from dorman !
i have a GOOD used phaser sitting here i will send you for the cost of
shipping !
FREEDOM has great prices on OEM .
also you can hold that cam in place with vise grips right behind the phaser that way it wont
roll on ya again .

 

[BruceH]

IMO , stay the hell away from dorman !
i have a GOOD used phaser sitting here i will send you for the cost of
shipping !
FREEDOM has great prices on OEM .
also you can hold that cam in place with vise grips right behind the phaser that way it wont
roll on ya again .

I already ordered them. Why stay away? The phaser design isn't complicated, just 5 chambers with vanes and a hole on each side of each vane for adjusting cam position.

I could always put the lockouts back in if they don't phase correctly. Still though, I'm only going to be allowing a movement of 8.5 degrees max with the limiters. The tune is only commanding 5 degrees of retard and it's pretty cut and dry as to where it's being commanded so it's not like they will have the full 60 degrees to be flopping around.

Is there something else with the Dorman phasers? I've always had good products from them. Did you have issues with them?

 

[pics06gtstang]

i had dorman shread after about 1000 miles and my brother also
had a set that took a shit .
I then read and read and read of all the others that used dorman .
they may have changed but i would not chance it .
and anytime i see or buy something that is half the price of OEM i gotta wonder .

 

[BruceH]

Well all I can do at this point is inspect them prior to installation. Maybe swap some of the internals if they appear not up to the task or significantly different than the oem stuff.

I came close to ordering the whole cam drive setup from frpp because it's the same price as two oem phasers but went with the Dorman phasers because they will be here in a few days.

If they can't hold 5 degrees of retard with 26113 springs then I'll have to reinstall the lockouts. As long as the gear teeth and reluctor are machined and located correctly they will work for me.

 

[swflastang05]

I can remember seeing it move when I was torqueing the phaser bolt. The cam wasn't moving but for some reason I forgot all about it. I'll bet that reluctor came off of the pins it sits on just enough to change it's position.

I have had this happen before, I know I'm a little late to the party here but this happened to me about a year ago, ended up replacing the phaser with FRPP. I have no idea why or how but when I was torqueing down one of my phaser bolts I watched the phaser ring turn with it and knew that's not right, sure enough found I sheared the pins off on the back when I removed it.

 

[Wild White Pony]

Just a note...When you get the new phasers and disassemble the back plate putting your limiters, you should take a cam and use it for alignment of the 3 parts of the phaser, front plate,center and backplate. Snug tight the bolts on the backplate when you get all three concentric with each other.

I've played with these phasers a while back and noticed that you can put in a lock or limiter and tighten up the plates finding that not all three parts line up perfectly, you may get the phaser on the cam but I think it's what causes a lot of problems for people after a cam or lockout swap. You can get enough of a misalignment that it can be difficult to put the phaser on the cam and that can cause those pins to shear since the phaser is as fragile as an egg until you tighten that cam bolt.

 

[BruceH]

Just a note...When you get the new phasers and disassemble the back plate putting your limiters, you should take a cam and use it for alignment of the 3 parts of the phaser, front plate,center and backplate. Snug tight the bolts on the backplate when you get all three concentric with each other.

I've played with these phasers a while back and noticed that you can put in a lock or limiter and tighten up the plates finding that not all three parts line up perfectly, you may get the phaser on the cam but I think it's what causes a lot of problems for people after a cam or lockout swap. You can get enough of a misalignment that it can be difficult to put the phaser on the cam and that can cause those pins to shear since the phaser is as fragile as an egg until you tighten that cam bolt.

I do happen to have a spare cam sitting on the parts self, lol. I'll take a look at it when they come.

I might of tweaked the front part when I was swapping the lockouts for limiters. My method is to put them face down on a piece of cardboard and prep the backplate. Once the limiters are in all of the bolts get torqued to 145 inch pounds. That's a bit of torque for that size of fastener and it takes some pressure to keep the phaser from moving.

It's quite possible that the pins were compromised during that time and it was enough to enable the rest of it to happen when the bolts were tightened. I'm going to be paying very close attention next time.

 

[pics06gtstang]

Thread the new bolt into the camshaft and torque to 30 lb/ft.
then tighten the phaser bolt an additional 90 degrees.

EDIT ; my bad i thought ya were talking about the phaser stretch bolt @ 145lbs .

READ page 4 thru 6 on reviews of the dorman phaser . its bad enough but to do it over again really sucks .
http://www.amazon.com/Dorman-917-25...ortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending&pageNumber=4

 

[Wild White Pony]

Found this. I'm not sure that it would make much difference because the limiters I've installed are only providing about 8.5 degrees of retard.

AFAIK the spring is only there to bring the phasers to 0 degrees.

Edit: The spring hook end should be on a long bolt. It came off and unwound itself. I'll have to figure out how to wind it up.

A good thing to do when you get the new Dorman phasers in, if it's the new style with the narrow spring it will have 2 bolts under pressure. One your going to back loosen to spin the plate around that one is on the hook of the spring, the other one is like post under the spring, it's under pressure too.

Tackle that post bolt first by taking a C-Clamp and putting on the spring and tightening it up against the phaser, the remove the bolt from the backside and screw it in the front. Now you can loosen the bolt thats connected to the hook of the spring and remove the remaining bolts, then swing out the back plate to put in your limiters. Reverse the procedure, this will keep you from putting any stress on the front assemble trying to get that second bolt back in under the spring.

In the pic below the left one you can see the bolt in the new style phaser that like a post under the spring, you want to reverse that bolt first, any handling, prying or manipulation of the spring when on the bench will result in a weak or broken phaser. If you were to reclock the spring I would put a bolt through the center and tighten down real hard to relieve any possible stress on the locators.

My own results of messin with the spring with the phaser on the bench below.

 

[BruceH]

A good thing to do when you get the new Dorman phasers in, if it's the new style with the narrow spring it will have 2 bolts under pressure. One your going to back loosen to spin the plate around that one is on the hook of the spring, the other one is like post under the spring, it's under pressure too.

Tackle that post bolt first by taking a C-Clamp and putting on the spring and tightening it up against the phaser, the remove the bolt from the backside and screw it in the front. Now you can loosen the bolt thats connected to the hook of the spring and remove the remaining bolts, then swing out the back plate to put in your limiters. Reverse the procedure, this will keep you from putting any stress on the front assemble trying to get that second bolt back in under the spring.

In the pic below the left one you can see the bolt in the new style phaser that like a post under the spring, you want to reverse that bolt first, any handling, prying or manipulation of the spring when on the bench will result in a weak or broken phaser. If you were to reclock the spring I would put a bolt through the center and tighten down real hard to relieve any possible stress on the locators.

My own results of messin with the spring with the phaser on the bench below.

The set of phasers that I had on this motor were the new design with two long screws. When I take a back plate off I leave the long screw that anchors the spring in place. That screw just gets loosened and the back plate is rotated to expose the chambers.

I wonder if the phasers are like other Motorcraft products that the aftermarket gets ahold of. Actual parts that were made for Ford but with the Motorcraft logo obliterated. I also wonder what would make the phasers noisy.

I can only think of a couple of things that would cause noise. The first would be not enough oil flow and pressure to keep the phaser as commanded by the ecu. The next would be something like the back plate not being properly torqued, loosening up and rattling.

Back plate torque is easy enough to verify. Oil flow depends on a few things especially having the right viscosity of oil for the clearances. I wonder if the 5.4 block has differently sized oil galleries or it the extra deck height compromises oil flow and pressure? Owners using delo or similar wrong viscosity oil would certainly affect the phasers. Provided that the oil passages are the same size as factory and that the little regulating thing on a spring is the same as my current phasers everything should work just fine.

The only other variable would be the main spring that keeps the phaser at 0 degrees unless commanded otherwise. If it's not of the same temper and strength as the stock unit it could cause issues.

I'll do a csi on the Dorman phasers prior to installation and report any differences I notice.

Edit: One time I had a set of phaser bolts that had lathe or drill shavings inside of them. It looked like thick steel wool. I mention this because it could be possible that the Dorman supplied phaser bolts could not be correctly machined. Something like this would account for phasers that were quiet and got noisy as the debris accumulated and blocked oil flow through the bolt.